Dave Meltzer on RVD

[dubq 0]

But it was put on Jerhico to be the guy that HHH would get to beat when he came back.  It might be they didn't want to take away from any of the other guys heat.

I'm not buying any of these conspiracy theories. If Jericho was going to be a transitional champion, he wouldn't have held the belt all the way to WMX8. They still put it on him, I think that speaks for itself.

But he WAS a transitional champion. He didn't have it THAT long.

He had it from December 9th until March 17th. Just over three months. Considering this is WWE/WWF and their love of hotshotting titles, I don't consider this a transitional championship reign. Besides, they're all about money and business. Regardless of losing Austin's or Rock's heat.. do you really think that they believed HHH/Jericho at WMX8 would've made more money that HHH/Rock or HHH/Austin?

[Ripper 0]

Well, I still believe that ROck/Austin was the plan for that Mania(as it made TOO much sense) for Rock to get his win.

[Vyce 0]

OBVIOUSLY WWE had enough faith in him to put TWO World Titles on him at once.

 

With all due respect, I must disagree.

 

Jericho was never anything more than just a body to keep the title warm until the glorious return of the WWE messiah HHH.

[Guest MideonMark]

I thought WWE creations were guys who were, you know, created and started off in the WWE, instead of one of the other major promotions(ie. Kurt Angle, Edge), so Steve Austin, HHH, Mick Foley are not WWE creations and they were all pushed big time and won the World Title.

[bob_barron 0]

But it was put on Jerhico to be the guy that HHH would get to beat when he came back.  It might be they didn't want to take away from any of the other guys heat.

I'm not buying any of these conspiracy theories. If Jericho was going to be a transitional champion, he wouldn't have held the belt all the way to WMX8. They still put it on him, I think that speaks for itself.

But he WAS a transitional champion. He didn't have it THAT long.

He had it from December 9th until March 17th. Just over three months. Considering this is WWE/WWF and their love of hotshotting titles, I don't consider this a transitional championship reign. Besides, they're all about money and business. Regardless of losing Austin's or Rock's heat.. do you really think that they believed HHH/Jericho at WMX8 would've made more money that HHH/Rock or HHH/Austin?

They gave Jericho the title- Rock tried to get him over as hard as he could.

 

And then Y2J ran into Austin and Triple H and boom- he died.

 

Jericho was champion so they could have a heel get beaten by Triple H at Mania. He was the only option

[bob_barron 0]

I thought WWE creations were guys who were, you know, created and started off in the WWE, instead of one of the other major promotions(ie. Kurt Angle, Edge), so Steve Austin, HHH, Mick Foley are not WWE creations and they were all pushed big time and won the World Title.

The character of Stone Cold Steve Austin is a WWF creation.

 

Mankind is a WWF creation.

 

Triple H is a WWF creation.

 

Did Stunning Steve Austin, Cactus Jack or Hunter Hearst Helmsley win any world titles? No

[Papacita 0]

I thought WWE creations were guys who were, you know, created and started off in the WWE, instead of one of the other major promotions(ie. Kurt Angle, Edge), so Steve Austin, HHH, Mick Foley are not WWE creations and they were all pushed big time and won the World Title.

Yeah, but they all had their most significant character development in the WWF. The theory is that if Vince didn't have anything to do with someone's success, he'll be more reluctant to push them.

[godthedog 0]

OBVIOUSLY WWE had enough faith in him to put TWO World Titles on him at once.

 

With all due respect, I must disagree.

 

Jericho was never anything more than just a body to keep the title warm until the glorious return of the WWE messiah HHH.

no, i think they had genuine faith in him and sincerely wanted to create a superstar (otherwise, they just would've had austin or rock win & had trips beat either one of THEM at wrestlemania), but they did it in too wishy-washy a way, trying to keep austin strong. they thought he could carry the company without giving him the real credibility to do so.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

They went and turned Angle back right after that, blamed it on Angle not being over as a face as opposed to the fact people liked Van Dam from ECW without prompting.

Yeah, of course, because everyone in every building has seen ECW before.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

His interviews weren't good, but you know what, the people liked him anyway. Paul Heyman had a philosophy which he may have actually taken from me, basically, "What works, works." When it works, even if we think it shouldn't work and can give all sorts of good reasons why, the worst thing you can do is deny it is working.

Wow... for years i'd been trying to express my feelings on matters like these when it came to workers I thought wer good and were nitpicked by smarks, but that sums it up very succinctly.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

When was the last time a non WWE creation won the title besides Jerhico. I honestly can't remember. Do we have to go back to Hogan? if he even counts.

 

SID maybe...

One could make a case for Austin, who's shoot anti-authority badass gimmick was done in ECW first.

 

What about Mick? He was a recognizable WCW performer before coming to the WWE.

 

Honorable mention to Vader who Vince Ok'd a Title Run for, but HBK bitched his way out of it at the last second.

[Ripper 0]

When was the last time a non WWE creation won the title besides Jerhico.  I honestly can't remember.  Do we have to go back to Hogan? if he even counts. 

 

SID maybe...

One could make a case for Austin, who's shoot anti-authority badass gimmick was done in ECW first.

 

What about Mick? He was a recognizable WCW performer before coming to the WWE.

 

Honorable mention to Vader who Vince Ok'd a Title Run for, but HBK bitched his way out of it at the last second.

But in all honesty, about 5 people had seen ECW before so Austin was made in the WWE...by stealing character traits from ECW characters.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

When was the last time a non WWE creation won the title besides Jerhico. I honestly can't remember.

Big Show held the "real" title for a month.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Quote MrZsasz

"Honorable mention to Vader who Vince OK'd a title run for..."

 

Vince's love of bigger wrestlers>his hatred of WCW

[Lord of The Curry 0]

WWE "missing the boat" on RVD is NOTHING compared to how they fucked up Benoit, Jericho and (to a lesser extent) Angle. RVD should consider himself lucky he's not a blond-haired Canadian who can actually wrestle, or he'd be much worse off.

[Papacita 0]

What about Mick? He was a recognizable WCW performer before coming to the WWE.

I don't necessarily believe in the theory, but Foley's character had A LOT of tweaking by the WWF before he won the title, so you could argue that he was a WWF "creation". You could argue the same with Big Show to a lesser extent.

 

no, i think they had genuine faith in him and sincerely wanted to create a superstar (otherwise, they just would've had austin or rock win & had trips beat either one of THEM at wrestlemania), but they did it in too wishy-washy a way, trying to keep austin strong. they thought he could carry the company without giving him the real credibility to do so.

I agree with part of that, but I don't think they really intended for Jericho to become any kind of breakout star. IMO, the main reason they put the title on him in the first place was because they needed a heel for Hunter to go over at Wrestlemania and they didn't really have any other options...Austin had just turned face, they weren't gonna turn Rocky because of his movie deal, and while they probably could've run with Angle, Jericho had just turned heel and was the fresher character.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Quote MrZsasz

"Honorable mention to Vader who Vince OK'd a title run for..."

 

Vince's love of bigger wrestlers>his hatred of WCW

Vader was more then some generic big guy. He was the best big guy in the business. (unless you consider taue a big guy, and I do not.)

[Guest The Old Me]

I think they were also going for the shock factor, as no one really though Jericho would win. I had my inklings, but didn't think they'd go through with it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

When was the last time a non WWE creation won the title besides Jerhico.  I honestly can't remember.  Do we have to go back to Hogan? if he even counts. 

 

SID maybe...

One could make a case for Austin, who's shoot anti-authority badass gimmick was done in ECW first.

 

What about Mick? He was a recognizable WCW performer before coming to the WWE.

 

Honorable mention to Vader who Vince Ok'd a Title Run for, but HBK bitched his way out of it at the last second.

But in all honesty, about 5 people had seen ECW before so Austin was made in the WWE...by stealing character traits from ECW characters.

No, Austin DID the "I'm pissed off because I don't get pushed and the people who run this place are pieces of shit" gimmick in ECW.

[Ripper 0]

WWE "missing the boat" on RVD is NOTHING compared to how they fucked up Benoit, Jericho and (to a lesser extent) Angle. RVD should consider himself lucky he's not a blond-haired Canadian who can actually wrestle, or he'd be much worse off.

How the hell did the miss the boat on angle. He won every title within a year.

[Guest The Old Me]

WWE "missing the boat" on RVD is NOTHING compared to how they fucked up Benoit, Jericho and (to a lesser extent) Angle. RVD should consider himself lucky he's not a blond-haired Canadian who can actually wrestle, or he'd be much worse off.

How the hell did the miss the boat on angle. He won every title within a year.

Angle has been misused at times, but is pretty much uneffected by it right now. His 1st title reign sucked, but he's since made up for all that.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

And was subsequently booked as the worst champion in recent memory.

 

Anything else?

[Guest The Old Me]

HHH has been the worst booked champion recently. He had to get DQ'ed to keep his belt from Nash and Steiner.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

no, i think they had genuine faith in him and sincerely wanted to create a superstar (otherwise, they just would've had austin or rock win & had trips beat either one of THEM at wrestlemania

 

Yeah, sure. I'd put the chances at that point of Austin agreeing to lay down for HHH at WM at 0, and the chances of the Rock agreeing to it at just less than 0. Jericho was the default guy because the two ones Hunter would most want Wrestlemania jobs from were sick of him and didn't have to do what Vince wanted.

 

And you guys are all missing the fact that when Vince decided to push Austin and Foley he was on the verge of going out of business thus having no choice but to push whoever the fans were reacting to. Until Viacom threatens to send him packing then he's got no motivation to do what his paying customers want.

[NoCalMike 0]

IMO, RVD's only chance of becoming a champion in the WWE is if he is repackaged with a WWE gimmick. Face it, Eddie/Benoit weren't going anywhere in WWE as "The radicals" or known by smarks as two of the most outstanding workers ever. Vince didn't give a shit AT ALL. So what do they give Benoit, "toothless aggression" and Eddie gets, "Latino Heat" and now the "Lie cheat & steal" gimmick. While the gimmicks aren't bad perse, they are really unnecessary for ANY wrestling company besides WWE. Only in WWE would two workers like Eddie and Benoit need to have quasi-comedic gimmicks sewed onto their backs before they can get a push.

 

Coming back to RVD. If somehow he is repackaged to where he has a gimmick that was at least 75% WWE created.(his moveset could stay the same though) then RVD might go somewhere, but even though though RVD has been in WWE for awhile now, I still think Vince and Co. see him as, "That kicky guy from ECW with the cult following" which means no push for RVD.

 

I think that is another big reason Jericho has not had the wins he deserves, cause he still basically acts the way he did in WCW, just on a greater level of sorts.

[Guest JMA]

To be blunt, Meltzer isn't telling us anything new. Many of us have said the exact same thing many times before on this board.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

I'm still not understanding how the "he's over!" argument should make me or indeed anyone else who dislikes shitty workers want to support an RVD title run. Triple H is over after a fashion and Taker and Hogan were and are still both extremely over. However, that doesn't mean I want to see them at the top of the card. Why? Because, barring Taker's recent rather random ability to start having decent brawls again, these men are shitty workers regardless of the cheers they get. Just like RVD. And for those moaning about RVD's corruption due to teh WWE STYLE!, here's a little secret. In ECW he was even worse. As in eye-gougingly, fearfully shitty and irritating. There is and never will be any excuse for a supposed wrestler to spend 10 full minutes posing in one match alone while his retarded manager blows a whistle.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Off-topic:

 

Kurt Angle was royally fucked over in 2001. I thought his 1st world title run was great, I mean after all, he did hold it for 5 months.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I always assumed that WWE would actually put the belt on RVD (the RAW belt that is) just as soon as they buried him to the point that no one cared...and then gave him a little push to get fans carring again.

 

That's exactly what they did with Jericho...who was red hot over...then depushed...then pushed again and given the fake title at No Mercy 2001.

 

They've buried RVD...it just seems that with all the hirings of Steiner, Goldberg and the return of HBK and Nash they forgot to give him is little push.

[NoCalMike 0]

RVD isn't a horrible worker, btw.