It's not always a damn carry

[iggymcfly 0]

Funny, I believe you're the only one to have brought up his "backstage bullshit" - I know I haven't.

 

HBK's moveset was cruiserweight-lite and laughable for a heavyweight. When a moonsault is the "big highflying move" you do (Road Dogg can do a moonsault for christsakes) and a superkick is the strongest "power move" you do, you're limited.

 

What are these "transitions" and "technical matches" you speak of?

 

RRR: Loves the "Gum Chewing" sell from WM 14.

As far as the moveset goes, you could say the same thing about Jericho, only Jericho doesn't have anywhere near the pacing or selling that HBK does, plus he blows a lot of spots.

 

(I know you're gonna bitch about the kipping up, but HBK can make 20,000 people believe that he's DYING in the ring, and then get them completely into the comeback. I've never seen Jericho do anything like that.)

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

There's no way in hell HBK is the 2nd best worker in the company today. Hell, HBK can't wrestle much more than once a month, so to make him the 2nd best in the company is ridiculous.

 

Edge at #5, and HHH at #8 are too high, also.

[iggymcfly 0]

I was judging the workers mainly on skill, not on how much work they're able to put out. That's why Edge and HBK were able to make the list and Austin would have too if he was really gonna come back to wrestle anywhere near full time. And HBK wrestles about two or three times a month; it's not like he doesn't do enough to be judged.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

HBK wrestles 2/3 times a month? That's practically every Raw (if you use "3"). If he wrestles twice a month, it's an exception, not the norm.

 

Even healthy Edge wouldn't make my Top 10 list. And Austin post-heel run and pre-Debra altercation was definitely *not* a Top 10 worker. Heel Austin was, though.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

HBK's had what one good match since his comeback?

 

How the hell can you rate him as the 2nd best worker in the company based on that?

 

ESPECIALLY when most of your argument for Angle was the amount of ****+ matches he's worked

 

Either be consistant or drop it

[cabbageboy 0]

I am a big RVD fan and have seen most of his great work, and can tell you he has certainly been in more than ONE good match. I still say the Bigelow match is his best match and a huge markout match the first time someone sees it. But lemme go over the list someone put up:

 

Vs Jerry Lynn, Living Dangerously '99. Pretty good match, hated the retarded booking. Good match though.

Vs Jerry Lynn, Hardcore Heaven '99. It was good but this is the epitome of the "RVD stall" match.

Vs Ballz Mahoney, Anarchy Rulz '99. Pretty uninspired, saw them have better on free TV.

Vs Sabu, Guilty As Charged '00. Sabu was basically finished at this point, they've done better on free TV.

Vs Jerry Lynn, Hardcore Heaven '00. Good match, horrible finish with Anton turning.

Vs Scotty Anton, Heat Wave '00. Nothing match aside from the debut of the Van Terminator.

Vs Rhino, Anarchy Rulz '00. Just average, they didn't wrestle each other enough to develop chemistry.

Vs Jerry Lynn, Guilty As Charged '01. The usual good match, no stupid booking.

Vs Jeff Hardy, InVasion. This ruled, RVD took out all of the stalling and condensed it into 15m or so of goodness.

Vs Jeff Hardy, Summerslam '01. Quite good as well, just the one crazy missed spot that was impossible.

Vs Chris Jericho, Unforgiven '01. One of RVD's best. He actually sold brilliantly here, and the match had a variety of styles (technical, hardcore, high flying).

Vs Eddie Guerrero, Judgement Day '02. This was also very good, and underrated. Has a sadly forgotten moment of Eddie brilliance as they both stare at each other after a double KO and Eddie just screams like a psycho and charges at RVD!

Vs Chris Benoit, Summerslam '02. I didn't care much for this match, it was too slow going for an RVD match. And yes, he didn't sell the shoulder.

 

So in short, while not all of those were mat classics RVD has easily been in his share of very good matches.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Top Ten Wrestlers in the WWE today

 

1. Eddy Guerrero

2. Chris Benoit

 

These two switch often, but right now Eddy is hotter than Benoit is.

 

3. Kurt Angle

4. Rey Misterio

 

The rest of the fab four. Misterio is a little too spotty compared to Angle, but still can outperform him on any given day. There is a big drop-off in talent at this point.

 

5. Chris Jericho. Best part of his career as far as in-ring performance goes, but he still blows too many spots and doesn't go above and beyond his usual level of performance like the guys above him can on occasion.

 

6. WGTT. As a unit. Neither are as good on their own, although Benjamin is the better of the two. Together they are fantastic.

 

7. Brock Lesnar. Similar to Angle, but not as experienced. He still make mistakes, but can go when he's on. He deserves something for carrying Big Show to his best matches in years.

 

8. Ultimo Dragon. Could be as high as #5 if he ever gets a chance.

 

9. Tajiri. He's been involved in some good matches lately, and is probably the best on the roster of actually making it look like he's hurting his opponent. Still a notch below the likes of Dragon & Mysterio.

 

10. Jamie Noble. Like Dragon, all he needs is a chance to show himself. Dragon is more proven then Noble is, but Noble has more upside since he is younger and healthier.

[Guest Coffey]

"Do you know how the * rating system works?

Good = *** or better."

 

I disagree with this.

Then what does *** mean? Bad? Poor?

 

It's generally considered that a match becomes good at the *** mark....Unless you give -* ratings out.

First off, I don't give out ratings less than zero. You can't be worse than zero in a wrestling match. It never made sense to me why people give out negative stars. As it stands now, I hardly ever give out zero stars or five stars.

 

Secondly, I think that three stars doesn't mean good. That's where my disagreement comes. I think four stars is good. Five stars is perfect. In between four and five is where I would put words like "great."

 

Hell, two stars could be "good." It's just a generic word.

 

"Nothing special, but a nice little ** match." Have you ever read a quote that was something like that? I would consider those matches to be decent - good. I guess the disagreement comes with the use of the word good.

 

Now, since everyone else is listing the best ten workers in the WWE, then I will too.

 

Chris Benoit

Eddie Guerrero

Kurt Angle (although he lacks psychology a lot)

Jamie Noble

Chris Jericho

Nuzio

Tajiri

Val Venis

Triple H

Matt Hardy

 

HBK didn't make my list, nor did Benjamin/Haas, Mysterio of some other people. Regardless of all the hate that Triple H gets, he's still a ring general. He may bury people, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't use psychology or sell. Nuzio, Tajiri, Venis & Noble are all underrated. HBK never sells correctly, and his "classic comeback" to me, just exposes the business. Jericho might have been higher, but sometimes he's "off." Same with Hardy.

Edited August 20, 2003 by Mr. Jag0

[iggymcfly 0]

HBK didn't make my list, nor did Benjamin/Haas, Mysterio of some other people. Regardless of all the hate that Triple H gets, he's still a ring general. He may bury people, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't use psychology or sell. Nuzio, Tajiri, Venis & Noble are all underrated. HBK never sells correctly, and his "classic comeback" to me, just exposes the business. Jericho might have been higher, but sometimes he's "off." Same with Hardy.

Just looking through what you said there, I agree completely on HHH and Jericho. HHH has been underrated by a lot of people because he's gotten stuck with a bunch of shitty workers. If he was facing Angle, Benoit, and Guerrero instead of Steiner, Booker, and Nash, he'd be putting on **** matches on a regular basis.

 

Noble's also a good worker, and I considered including him on my list, but since I haven't seen him in a real match in 6 months, I figured that I'd take Benjamin instead who's put on a lot of good matches in the last few months.

 

Venis isn't bad, but I can't remember seeing him do anything above *** or ***1/2 even when he got his little mini-push as a serious wrestler.

 

Tajiri, on the other hand isn't underrated. He's basically RVD lite. Kick, kick, flip, tarantula, kick, kick, flip, handspring. His weaknesses just haven't been exposed because he hasn't had as many big matches as RVD has.

 

HBK's comeback, on the other hand, doesn't really expose the business that I can see. He only does it in really big matches and when he does, he gets the crowd into the match enough first that they don't even question it. I think the fact that he has arguably put on the MOTY two years in a row despite working a part-time schedule on the wasteland that is Raw is a testament to his skill. Even the Flair match which was a disappointment could have been **** if they had given it enough time and a clean finish.

[Guest Ray]

I agree completely on HHH and Jericho. HHH has been underrated by a lot of people because he's gotten stuck with a bunch of shitty workers. If he was facing Angle, Benoit, and Guerrero instead of Steiner, Booker, and Nash, he'd be putting on **** matches on a regular basis.

Yeah...right.

 

He couldn't even have **** matches with Angle BEFORE the quad injury.

 

If his opponents are to blame, then why weren't his matches with Jericho in 2002 great?

 

Tajiri, on the other hand isn't underrated. He's basically RVD lite. Kick, kick, flip, tarantula, kick, kick, flip, handspring. His weaknesses just haven't been exposed because he hasn't had as many big matches as RVD has.

That's soooo wrong. I've seen Tajiri work very good matches.

 

I think the fact that he has arguably put on the MOTY two years in a row despite working a part-time schedule on the wasteland that is Raw is a testament to his skill.

Wrestlemania 19? Yeah, it could be considered MOTY.

 

Please tell me what 2002 match he had that was anywhere near MOTY status.

[iggymcfly 0]

Summerslam: Street fight vs. HHH

 

Something tells me you already knew that though.

[godthedog 0]

Please tell me what 2002 match he had that was anywhere near MOTY status.

i believe he's referring to the summerslam match with trips.

[Guest Ray]

Summerslam: Street fight vs. HHH

 

Something tells me you already knew that though.

I saw that answer coming 100 miles away.

 

That match was GARBAGE. PURE CRAP.

 

Horrible selling, stupid psychology....just GARBAGE.

 

INSANELY overrated match. Doesn't even break ***.

 

No Mercy tag....Edge/Guerrero....Angle/Benoit....a ton of better matches in 2002.

[iggymcfly 0]

I give it ***** myself. It's probably the best match I've ever seen. I think you have to be a pretty hardened smark to not enjoy that match. I could see giving it ****1/2 or maybe even ****, but saying it doesn't break ***? That's bullshit. If you didn't like that match, you'll never be able to enjoy wrestling as a fan instead of just as a critic.

[bob_barron 0]

I give it ***** myself. It's probably the best match I've ever seen. I think you have to be a pretty hardened smark to not enjoy that match. I could see giving it ****1/2 or maybe even ****, but saying it doesn't break ***? That's bullshit. If you didn't like that match, you'll never be able to enjoy wrestling as a fan instead of just as a critic.

So you enjoy a smoke and mirrors match that makes the first 10 minutes pointless? Wow- you're easy to please.

[Guest Ray]

I give it ***** myself. It's probably the best match I've ever seen.

How many matches have you seen?

 

I think you have to be a pretty hardened smark to not enjoy that match.

I didn't enjoy it at all. It was garbage.

 

I could see giving it ****1/2 or maybe even ****, but saying it doesn't break ***? That's bullshit.

No it isn't. Explain why that match deserves ****+.

 

The SHITTY selling? The idiotic psychology? The sloppy garbage wrestling?

 

If you didn't like that match, you'll never be able to enjoy wrestling as a fan instead of just as a critic.

Now THAT is bullshit.

 

I just watched Austin/Benoit, and enjoyed the fuck out of it.

 

 

You don't know what you're talking about.

[iggymcfly 0]

I mean watching a match where you get into the storyline, and actually care who wins. Not just looking back at the match you've seen a bunch of times to see how good the workrate was.

 

Don't get me wrong, I watch old matches too sometimes, but you're not really watching them as a fan when you do so.

[Guest Ray]

I mean watching a match where you get into the storyline, and actually care who wins. Not just looking back at the match you've seen a bunch of times to see how good the workrate was.

 

Don't get me wrong, I watch old matches too sometimes, but you're not really watching them as a fan when you do so.

*bullshit detector explodes*

 

 

 

When I watch Austin/Benoit, I'm watching as a fan. I care who wins.

 

Triple H/Michaels was a garbage wrestling match with terrible selling, bad pacing, and lots of nonsense.

[iggymcfly 0]

You just don't understand what I'm saying. You only care who wins a match the first time you watch it, because after that you already know. The matches are still fun to watch over again, but you watch them in a different way.

 

The reason HBK/HHH worked so well was that they worked the crowd into believing the storyline just like back in the kayfabe days. The fans completely suspended their disbelief of what was going on. When HBK kipped up, people weren't saying "That's bullshit, how did he kip up." "They were saying, "That's awesome, HBK's making a comeback."

 

I just don't buy this whole thing about HBK's shitty selling. It was more like he was getting a second wind and fighting through the pain than no-selling HHH's offense. Obviously, if you've just been freshly attacked, and haven't exercised an injured body part, it's going to be stiff as hell when you wrestle for the first time in years. But as you exercise it, you're going to start to loosen it up, and feel the damage less.

 

HBK continued to sell the pain throughout the match. He was just showing that he wasn't a cripple, and still had the ability to "go."

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

As far as the moveset goes, you could say the same thing about Jericho, only Jericho doesn't have anywhere near the pacing or selling that HBK does, plus he blows a lot of spots.

 

Jericho has done double powerbombs before, top rope hurricanranas, tiger suplexes, etc. Oh, but he did most of them outside the WWE, I guess they don't count... Jericho's WWE moveset is weak though, almost laughable. The Breakdown and Flashback were horribles moves as well. Jericho's better at selling than HBK is and pacing? You might want to expand on that cause Jericho has had a variety of well-paced matches (me thinks this is becoming the new "technical wrestling", as lots of people are using it and have no idea what it means).

 

(I know you're gonna bitch about the kipping up, but HBK can make 20,000 people believe that he's DYING in the ring, and then get them completely into the comeback. I've never seen Jericho do anything like that.)

 

Funny, cause if you watch WM the crowd begins to turn towards Jericho... And it's not hard to make people believe that you're dying in the ring, especially if you flop around like a pinball.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Iggy, if that's the best match you've ever seen... what matches have you seen?

[Guest Ray]

You just don't understand what I'm saying.

Yes, I do.

 

You only care who wins a match the first time you watch it, because after that you already know. The matches are still fun to watch over again, but you watch them in a different way.

So...HHH/Shawn was ***** because you didn't know who would win?

 

Yeah, I do watch them in a different way each time. I appreciate and notice the good wrestling even more.

 

I just don't buy this whole thing about HBK's shitty selling. It was more like he was getting a second wind and fighting through the pain than no-selling HHH's offense. Obviously, if you've just been freshly attacked, and haven't exercised an injured body part, it's going to be stiff as hell when you wrestle for the first time in years. But as you exercise it, you're going to start to loosen it up, and feel the damage less.

 

HBK continued to sell the pain throughout the match. He was just showing that he wasn't a cripple, and still had the ability to "go."

That's just a load of excuses for bad selling.

 

Michaels was selling the back LIKE DEATH earlier in the match. Doing a kip-up and dancing around pisses all over the previous work. It's stupid and unrealistic....and it's the same thing Shawn has done for years.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I believe that if HBK had been wrestling Justin Credible, and did the same spots, there would still be proclamations that the match would have been ***** simply because it was Michaels' comeback match. And it's complete bullshit to say that if one doesn't like ONE MATCH then they're "not a true fan". Vince should pay to have people write that kind of stuff.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Well Scott Kieth gave it ****, he must know a thing or two...wrote a few books here and there.

 

 

 

Man, how the f*** did HBK become so unpopular around here that everything he's ever done is undermined and hated? The guy is a good wrestler, he had the American match of the year for 4 straight years 93-97. He gives the fans matches that the fans can enjoy, and that semi-please most smarks who don't let their hate blind thier view.

[CanadianChick 0]

Match quality is always a personal opinion. You can't say that you aren't a true wrestling fan if you don't like a particular match.

[Guest Ray]

Well Scott Kieth gave it ****, he must know a thing or two...wrote a few books here and there.

Writing books doesn't mean he knows everything.

 

SK overrates matches constantly.

 

Man, how the f*** did HBK become so unpopular around here that everything he's ever done is undermined and hated?

I don't hate him. I am annoyed by people who think he's Jesus and/or the best ever.

 

he had the American match of the year for 4 straight years 93-97.

Oh hell no he did NOT!

 

Vader/Sting

Bret/Owen

Austin/Bret

Austin/Bret

 

Were all better than Shawn's best matches those years.

 

He gives the fans matches that the fans can enjoy, and that semi-please most smarks who don't let their hate blind thier view.

Now THIS pisses me off.

 

Not liking shitty matches makes one a "blind hater" ?

 

PLEASE.

[bob_barron 0]

Well Scott Kieth gave it ****, he must know a thing or two...wrote a few books here and there.

 

 

 

Man, how the f*** did HBK become so unpopular around here that everything he's ever done is undermined and hated? The guy is a good wrestler, he had the American match of the year for 4 straight years 93-97. He gives the fans matches that the fans can enjoy, and that semi-please most smarks who don't let their hate blind thier view.

I don't think HBK was in the MOTY for any of those years

[Fökai 0]

1994 - Ladder match at Wrestlemania X

OUTDONE BY?:

Bret/Owen, Wrestlemania X

Bret/Owen, Summerslam (cage)

 

1995 - Ladder match at Summerslam OR Clique Tag Match.

OUTDONE BY?:

 

 

1996 - Mind Games v. Mankind

OUTDONE BY?:

Bret/Austin, Survivor Series

 

1997 - Badd Blood v. Undertaker (Hell in the Cell)

OUTDONE BY?:

Bret/Austin, Wrestlemania XIII

Canadian Stampede 10-man tag.

Owen/Bulldog, RAW (European title tournament finals)

 

 

This is only listing WWF-only candidates (didn't follow WCW closely during 1994/1995).

[Guest Anglesault]

HBK didn't make my list, nor did Benjamin/Haas, Mysterio of some other people. Regardless of all the hate that Triple H gets, he's still a ring general. He may bury people, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't use psychology or sell. Nuzio, Tajiri, Venis & Noble are all underrated. HBK never sells correctly, and his "classic comeback" to me, just exposes the business. Jericho might have been higher, but sometimes he's "off." Same with Hardy.

Just looking through what you said there, I agree completely on HHH and Jericho. HHH has been underrated by a lot of people because he's gotten stuck with a bunch of shitty workers. If he was facing Angle

HHH and Angle have absolutely always (for no apparent reason) sucked together. Unforgiven was boring, and the Rumble was a chore to watch. No Way Out was just awful, mainly because HHH had himself so *ahem* worked out that he could barely move.

[bob_barron 0]

1993- Sting v. Vader is my MOTY

1994- Bret v. Owen

1995- Yea- HBK wins there.

1996- Bret v. Austin

1997-Bret v. Austin