Low Ki: Capable worker or liability?

[Ace309 0]

In the wake of the Maff injury, a lot of Low Ki's past worker injuries have been brought up. The unpulled kick to American Dragon's solar plexus is one that Dace Night likes to mention, and I've heard of several others but can't remember them right offhand.

 

I got into an argument on another board about this. My feeling is that regardless of how good he looks in the ring, Low Ki's injured so many opponents in such a short career that he can safely be branded as dangerously sloppy. Yes, Kawada, Hansen and other top workers have inflicted injuries on their opponents, in some cases more serious than the concussion (Vader's eyeball, I'm looking at you), but for the number of matches they were involved in, Ki's percentage is really, really bad.

 

The opposition points out that American Dragon is much stiffer than Ki is, and claims that since they were working a strongstyle match, the errant gamengiri is somehow okay. They claim that anyone who disagrees just doesn't understand strongstyle.

 

I'm of the opinion that a good strongstylist isn't going to injure his opponent. One of the marks of a good wrestler is to work stiff, look good and protect your opponent. Any other opinions?

[razazteca 0]

There is only way to settle this is RVD vs Low-Ki in Hell in the Cell at Wrestlemania 20.

 

I have a match in which Low Ki kicks one member of the St Christopher Connection so hard that he knocked him out.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I honeslty don't think Dragon is stiffer than Ki- Dragon hits hard, but to me, he strikes look far more controlled.

 

Ki is sort of an enigma in that he has fantastic stuff with the "elite" workers, the guys with loads of training and experience -AJ, Dragon, Daniels etc. But put him in there with guys who are "below his level" or inexperienced, he'll murder them. Two best examples are the 9/21 Xavier match, where he basically brutalized Xavier (and made the match brutally bad as a result) and the slaughter of Deranged at a recent indy show.

[Ace309 0]

I have a match in which Low Ki kicks one member of the St Christopher Connection so hard that he knocked him out.

 

I've seen that one as well.

 

I honeslty don't think Dragon is stiffer than Ki- Dragon hits hard, but to me, he strikes look far more controlled.

 

Apparently Christopher Daniels has called Dragon the stiffest worker around. I think it may be true, since imho Ki's not reliably stiff, just sloppy and uncontrolled. To me, stiffness implies a degree of control. After all, this isn't a competition, it's a show.

[Adam 0]

He knocked Prince Nana out at RTTT, or was that a work?

[bob_barron 0]

That was a work

[Guest trickstyle_360]

The opposition points out that American Dragon is much stiffer than Ki is, and claims that since they were working a strongstyle match, the errant gamengiri is somehow okay. They claim that anyone who disagrees just doesn't understand strongstyle.

 

I'm of the opinion that a good strongstylist isn't going to injure his opponent. One of the marks of a good wrestler is to work stiff, look good and protect your opponent. Any other opinions?

Strong style is New Japan's style of wrestling, Strong style is not about killing each other with stiff strikes or kicks.

[Guest Doyo]

In the wake of the Maff injury, a lot of Low Ki's past worker injuries have been brought up. The unpulled kick to American Dragon's solar plexus is one that Dace Night likes to mention, and I've heard of several others but can't remember them right offhand.

 

This pops up all over the place and I always ask for specific examples of all these injuries

that Low Ki has caused, and nobody ever gives even ONE example of anything more

than bruises. American Dragon has been asked point blank in interviews if Low Ki works

too stiff and his reply is "he does not." How can anyone besides American Dragon tell if

he was really kicked full force in the solar plexus? Just because it looks stiff and there is

contact doesn't make it a full kick. You would think that American Dragon would

have complained about this incident and not some people on message boards. All anyone

needs to do is watch some MMA to see what just a few full force kicks can do to a person.

 

I got into an argument on another board about this. My feeling is that regardless of how good he looks in the ring, Low Ki's injured so many opponents in such a short career that he can safely be branded as dangerously sloppy. Yes, Kawada, Hansen and other top workers have inflicted injuries on their opponents, in some cases more serious than the concussion (Vader's eyeball, I'm looking at you), but for the number of matches they were involved in, Ki's percentage is really, really bad.

 

Give me specific examples and the amount of time these people were put out for. I bet it

wouldn't be that much higher than the amount any other wrestler, with a similar amount

of matches, has injured.

 

At least half the guys in Japan work a style that is just as stiff. Look at Tajiri, a lot of Low

Ki's stuff is borrowed from him. Deranged was supposedly bragging about the beating

he took from Low Ki.

 

Vader broke jobber Joe Thurman's back and then Vader would brag about it in interviews.

He broke Sting's ribs. Cactus Jack had a match with Vader in which he broke Jack's nose,

gave him two black eyes and Jack also had to have 27 stitches. A couple of weeks later,

they met again and Vader powerbombed Jack on the concrete. Jack's head smacked on

the concrete and he suffered a serious concussion that many thought was going to end

his career. If I remember correct, Vader injured many others, including Ron Simmons

and Nikita Koloff.

 

Homicide ruptured Corino's eardrum on the same show as the Maff incident. AJ Styles

almost broke Frankie Kazarian's neck a few weeks back. Owen Hart broke Austin's

neck. Goldberg ended Bret Hart's career. Benoit broke Sabu's neck. D Lo Brown

paralyzed Droz.

 

Sadly, it's part of wrestling. Shit happens.

 

I do believe that Low Ki should be more careful with kicks to the head area. However,

if I was a wrestler, I would rather take some stiff kicks from Low Ki to the hips, before

I would take Homicide's Cop Killa and many other moves.

[Guest thetrendsetter]

Here's my beef with Low Ki... he no sells too much shit for his size...

 

Yes, I realize the toughness is apart of his gimmick, but if you can dole out a stiff shot, you better be willing to take one

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'm pretty sure Ki is more than willing to take a stiff shot.

 

Ki isn't so much a superb "holy shit, he's great" worker as he is a really, really FUN worker to watch. Put him with great talent, get great matches. Put him with okay talent, get good matches that are fun to watch. Hey, at least he's not all about flying all over the place anymore (even if he does do the best fucking Phoenix Splash I've ever seen).

[Adam 0]

That was a work

My bad. It looked pretty sick.

[Rendclaw 0]

Low-Ki no sells?

 

Every match I have seen him is his psychology is damn good and he selling is better than a lot of wrestlers getting paid ten times what he makes.... the only time he does anything of no-selling is when he can another wrestler (say American Dragon) are stiffing the hell out of each other with chops and kicks, but that's part of the match.

 

Low-ki is not very much more dangerous than anyone else. Eveyone looks at his kicks and thinks he's dangerous.

 

Injuries happen, especially in the indies, because everyone is trying THAT MUCH HARDER to get over and try to put on a ***** match or a MOTYC.

[shlidgn90 0]

low-ki is the sabu of 2000's. all flashy offense and no structure of an match. by the time he will learn how to structure a match, he will be broken down from doing pheonix spashes. plus, his wrestling style is business exposing.

[Nevermortal 0]

low-ki is the sabu of 2000's. all flashy offense and no structure of an match. by the time he will learn how to structure a match, he will be broken down from doing pheonix spashes. plus, his wrestling style is business exposing.

Oh, EXCEPT IT ISN'T!

 

If anything, his striking style makes the business look more realistic because its crisp, snug, and stiff.

 

The last person I'd ever compare Low Ki to is Sabu.

[shlidgn90 0]

ever see low-ki in person? he weighs 150lbs tops. you cannot tell me that some guy who's spike dudley's size is knocking out guys with 50-100lbs on him with karate kicks? think about it, this is the equivalent of saying oscar de la hoya (who's 154lbs and a hard puncher) can knock out mike tyson or evander holyfield (both weigh in between 225-200lbs).

[EricMM 0]

If de la Hoya punched Tyson in the head a few times, he'd knock out Tyson...

 

Surprise body weight doesn't equal strength.

[shlidgn90 0]

name one time where a lightweight fighter ever knocked out a fighter that weighed more than 50lbs using an strike based offense? in boxing or mma.

[EricMM 0]

Give me one reason why Low-Ki, someone who is both extremely physically fit and experianced in kicking, wouldn't be able to knock someone out by kicking them in the head?

[Jingus 0]

Guys, did anyone ever tell you it's all a work? In real life, half of the shit that happens in a pro match is impossible to do. Why are you arguing about what damage his kicks could do (probably a lot), when the guy does completely worked moves like knife-edge chops to the chest and Phoenix splashes?

[shlidgn90 0]

low-ki could knock out the average joe. but when in the ring, with another athlete who's in top condition, and has 50lbs on him, will be a mismatch.

[Guest Devin]

Ummm, how can you be arguing if Low Ki can knock a heavyweight out, when he JUST knocked out Danny Maff?

[The Metal Maniac 0]

name one time where a lightweight fighter ever knocked out a fighter that weighed more than 50lbs using an strike based offense? in boxing or mma.

 

Ummm....how often do lightweights fight people who have more then 50 pounds on them in boxing or MMA, anyway? That's what weight classes are for, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Not to say that it's NEVER happened (Because it very well could've, as I don't think all MMA events have ALWAYS had weight classes) but it isn't the most common thing around.

 

Anyway, I agree that it's a silly thing to argue about. When you consider that an irish whip is outlandish in terms of a real fight, suddenly, a smaller guy throwing sick-looking kicks doesn't seem too bad.

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

If you have ever watched any MMA, you'll notice that 1) most fighters are not big guys...watching the KOTC, I've seen most of the guys weigh in at around 150-170 pounds, and these guys fight legit for a living. You take a guy like Chris Brennan, and put him in a fight with a guy like Danny Maff, and I gurantee you that Brennan would knock Maff out .

 

50 Pounds means jack shit if your getting kicked in the head.

[EricMM 0]

Thats what I'm saying.

 

I'm not trying to argue that the cartwheel into a tidal wave is a legit MMA maneuver, or if Sliced Bread #2 is a black belt judo throw (as spanky has been known to say on his website) but whether or not a 200 lb man could knock out a 300 lb man with a kick to the head.

 

Of course he could.

 

Being 100 lbs heavier doesn't make someone's skull thicker or brain more able to withstand trauma.

 

Weight gives momentum which makes one hit harder. It's also helpful for wrestling and such. But CLEARLY Low-Ki can knock someone out.

 

I mean are you saying Bruce Lee couldn't beat Tyson? I think he could

[shlidgn90 0]

i can give an example of a boxer that weighed only ten pounds heavier than his opponent (he cut 15 pounds before weigh-in and regained it back the next day). when they fought, the heavier boxer seriously injured the smaller boxer. comparing mike tyson to bruce lee would not be an accurate comparison due to fight background (mike tyson has never taken a kick in competition so we don't know how well his chin would hold). now could bruce lee knock out mirko cro-cop using strikes, i think not.

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

What exactly are you trying to prove? You have given no facts, while the rest of us have given clear facts, namely that Low Ki just knocked out Maff, who outweighs him by a good amount. And it wasn't a work, have you ever seen a No Decision in ROH? Doesn't happen.

 

And dude, don't think that anyone can take Bruce Lee

 

Bruce Lee> Any Fighter ever...unless they have a gun.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

How about the Roy Jones Jr. fight back in the spring. He was fighting a guy who was a lot taller and weighed almost 50 lbs. more than he did. I seem to recall Jr. beating the piss out of him.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I just wanted to comment on Doyo's comments about Vader busting up Cactus Jack. Cactus told Vader to be stiff and rough him up despite I believe Vader objecting. He also told Vader to powerbomb him on the concrete. Cactus even actually gave credit for Vader looking after him and not killing him like a normal Vader ring powerbomb would do.

[Brush with Greatness 0]

name one time where a lightweight fighter ever knocked out a fighter that weighed more than 50lbs using an strike based offense? in boxing or mma.

Mirko "Crocop" Filipovic 6'2" 213 lbs.

 

vs.

 

Bob "The Beast" Sapp 6'3" 350 lbs.

 

Mirko's not a lightweight but thats almost 150 pound difference. Anyone remember the result of that fight?

[Guest Doyo]

I just wanted to comment on Doyo's comments about Vader busting up Cactus Jack. Cactus told Vader to be stiff and rough him up despite I believe Vader objecting. He also told Vader to powerbomb him on the concrete. Cactus even actually gave credit for Vader looking after him and not killing him like a normal Vader ring powerbomb would do.

Yup, that's true. Also, Vader was crying backstage after he broke Joe Thurman's

back. I don't think Vader is an asshole, even if I might have made him sound like that. He is just

a big guy who works a stiff style.