The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Guest Brian]

Hey Rudo, a while back you were talking about Origin and what Wes came to realize. Do you think that he also came to realize that, in much the same way, Angel had forgiven him (over Connor) and he had to forgive Gunn?

[Jericholic82 0]

Speaking of Spike:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A love scene from the canceled TV show "Angel" that showed a female character turning into a vampire and biting her partner's neck did not overstep federal indecency rules, the Federal Communications Commission ruled Friday.

 

It was one of two scenes from a November 2003 episode of "Angel" that were not "sufficiently graphic or explicit to render the program patently offensive" by contemporary standards, the FCC said in denying an indecency complaint from the Parents Television Council.

 

"Angel," which was canceled by the WB last year after five seasons, starred David Boreanaz in the title role of an 18th-century vampire who tried to atone for past evil deeds in present day Los Angeles.

 

One scene involved Angel in an intimate moment with a female character in which Angel's hips are seen "moving back and forth," the Parents Television Council said in its complaint.

 

In the scene depicting the female vampire biting the neck of her partner, also a vampire, both characters had clothes on and "their breathing is heavy," the complaint said.

 

The episode aired at 9 p.m. EST on November 19, 2003. The indecency law bars nonsatellite radio and noncable television stations from airing between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. indecent material such as references to sexual and excretory functions. Those are the hours when children are more likely to be watching TV.

 

But not all sexual and excretory references or scenes are considered indecent. The FCC must consider context and its decisions are subjective interpretations of the law.

 

The FCC said the "Angel" scenes were not patently offensive "as defined by commission precedent" and therefore were not indecent.

 

The complaint was officially filed against WBDC-TV in Washington, though the program aired on WB stations across the country. The FCC asks that indecency complaints include the call letters of a television or radio station.

 

Good on the FCC for once. I'm assuming that the scene in question is the one in Destiny between Spike and Harmony

But they say angel is seen. just a mistake by them I assume.

 

 

 

"excretory functions"? so what: Wes couldnt say "oh man I got to take a huge dump."?

[Ravenbomb 0]

Speaking of Spike:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A love scene from the canceled TV show "Angel" that showed a female character turning into a vampire and biting her partner's neck did not overstep federal indecency rules, the Federal Communications Commission ruled Friday.

 

It was one of two scenes from a November 2003 episode of "Angel" that were not "sufficiently graphic or explicit to render the program patently offensive" by contemporary standards, the FCC said in denying an indecency complaint from the Parents Television Council.

 

"Angel," which was canceled by the WB last year after five seasons, starred David Boreanaz in the title role of an 18th-century vampire who tried to atone for past evil deeds in present day Los Angeles.

 

One scene involved Angel in an intimate moment with a female character in which Angel's hips are seen "moving back and forth," the Parents Television Council said in its complaint.

 

In the scene depicting the female vampire biting the neck of her partner, also a vampire, both characters had clothes on and "their breathing is heavy," the complaint said.

 

The episode aired at 9 p.m. EST on November 19, 2003. The indecency law bars nonsatellite radio and noncable television stations from airing between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. indecent material such as references to sexual and excretory functions. Those are the hours when children are more likely to be watching TV.

 

But not all sexual and excretory references or scenes are considered indecent. The FCC must consider context and its decisions are subjective interpretations of the law.

 

The FCC said the "Angel" scenes were not patently offensive "as defined by commission precedent" and therefore were not indecent.

 

The complaint was officially filed against WBDC-TV in Washington, though the program aired on WB stations across the country. The FCC asks that indecency complaints include the call letters of a television or radio station.

 

Good on the FCC for once. I'm assuming that the scene in question is the one in Destiny between Spike and Harmony

But they say angel is seen. just a mistake by them I assume.

 

 

 

"excretory functions"? so what: Wes couldnt say "oh man I got to take a huge dump."?

yeah, the mistake is on my part. There were two scenes, one from Destiny and one from, I assume, Power Play

 

 

and I guess Wes could say "I got to take a huge dump", but he couldn't then proceed to take a huge dump on camera. He'd have to do that off screen

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Hey Rudo, a while back you were talking about Origin and what Wes came to realize. Do you think that he also came to realize that, in much the same way, Angel had forgiven him (over Connor) and he had to forgive Gunn?

Wow, that's real fucking interesting.

 

I don't recall any specific moment, though, that had Wes forgiving Gunn. I could be totally wrong on that, though. Cause I don't have the DVD's yet. I hate you all btw. Wes' insanity, however, started after Origin, I believe. I think a lot was forgiven when Illyria arrived, because Wes still had a part of Fred left. It was a perverted view of things, and it got much worse when the possibility arose that the Fred he loved for so many years didn't _really_ love him because her memory was changed. That twisted his already perverted view of Illyria and it drove him to the brink of madness. Him wanting the lie at the end, when he is dying, is so tragic and beautiful in that way.

 

God I want those DVD's.

[Anya 0]

The lack of new Buffy is KILLING me.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Who the fuck are you?

[Guest Brian]

Well, Wes is the one who commands Illyria to save Gunn. And remember, Angel never really said he was sorry to Wes, just said he's been thingking at the bottom of the ocean. And don't forget what Lilah told Wes in "Salvage", 'sorry' just isn't in their vocabulary.

[Ripper 0]

Well, Wes is the one who commands Illyria to save Gunn. And remember, Angel never really said he was sorry to Wes, just said he's been thingking at the bottom of the ocean. And don't forget what Lilah told Wes in "Salvage", 'sorry' just isn't in their vocabulary.

He didn't say the word, but the "you coming?" in Apocolypse Nowish was a manly "I forgive you, you are part of the team again."

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, but that's the whole point of Lilah's line. "People like us..." Angel, Wes, Lilah. And Gunn after he returns in "Time Bomb", he couldn't say it either. They couldn't actually say that word. From "Time Bomb":

 

WESLEY

(grabs another book from a cabinet, rushes back to his desk before pausing to address Gunn)

I stabbed you. I should apologize for that. But I'm honestly not sure how.

(looks down)

I think it'll just be awkward.

[Guest Brian]

When’s the last time they did a horror medium for the show?

 

Bringing up the shanshu. And exposing Spike to it.

 

It’s funny that Eve pops up behind Fred and scares her and yet Spike couldn’t.

 

Fred: “It’s about doing what’s right.”

Angel: “…some people just can’t be saved.”

 

“I bloody well invented afraid of the dark.” Does SPIKE~! rule or what?

 

Nothing written in stone. It’s great to look at how Angel values free will and how that leads him to condemn the Shanshu and his chance to redeem himself.

 

The psychic spits blood all over Fred, which is what Fred did in “A Hole in the World.”

 

Spike’s picking up more power, which is significant because it adds a ton of depth to this guy. Angel sees Spike as a subordinate still, as someone weaker. Now that Spike’s using his head, he adds that much to his persona, building a stronger character, with an amazing will. He does this because he wants to, even when he had a chip and no soul he chose to help Buffy against Glory and chose not to tell.

 

Angel has a reference as the dark soul, and he didn’t have a soul. I like the way he looks at it, as a technicality.

 

And here we get the explanation of how things work. Pavayne’s monologue is great. Talking about how Spike thinks his soul matters. Crying for his mother.

 

I like Wes talking about the legend and Gunn cutting him off. Reminds me of back to Season 2, or in “Spin the Bottle”.

 

I think why Gunn sees the conduit as a panther is because the panther relates to his strength, and when he sees this corporate image it’s because he’s sold out.

 

Spike bending reality is awesome. Getting the clothes back. Beating the hell out of Pavayne.

 

Spike making the choice to save Fred ruled.

 

And Spike owns up to his choice. Such a fucking hero. “That you’re worth saving.”

[The Czech Republic 0]

I thought this show ended.

[Jericholic82 0]

Speaking of Spike:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A love scene from the canceled TV show "Angel" that showed a female character turning into a vampire and biting her partner's neck did not overstep federal indecency rules, the Federal Communications Commission ruled Friday.

 

It was one of two scenes from a November 2003 episode of "Angel" that were not "sufficiently graphic or explicit to render the program patently offensive" by contemporary standards, the FCC said in denying an indecency complaint from the Parents Television Council.

 

"Angel," which was canceled by the WB last year after five seasons, starred David Boreanaz in the title role of an 18th-century vampire who tried to atone for past evil deeds in present day Los Angeles.

 

One scene involved Angel in an intimate moment with a female character in which Angel's hips are seen "moving back and forth," the Parents Television Council said in its complaint.

 

In the scene depicting the female vampire biting the neck of her partner, also a vampire, both characters had clothes on and "their breathing is heavy," the complaint said.

 

The episode aired at 9 p.m. EST on November 19, 2003. The indecency law bars nonsatellite radio and noncable television stations from airing between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. indecent material such as references to sexual and excretory functions. Those are the hours when children are more likely to be watching TV.

 

But not all sexual and excretory references or scenes are considered indecent. The FCC must consider context and its decisions are subjective interpretations of the law.

 

The FCC said the "Angel" scenes were not patently offensive "as defined by commission precedent" and therefore were not indecent.

 

The complaint was officially filed against WBDC-TV in Washington, though the program aired on WB stations across the country. The FCC asks that indecency complaints include the call letters of a television or radio station.

 

Good on the FCC for once. I'm assuming that the scene in question is the one in Destiny between Spike and Harmony

But they say angel is seen. just a mistake by them I assume.

 

 

 

"excretory functions"? so what: Wes couldnt say "oh man I got to take a huge dump."?

yeah, the mistake is on my part. There were two scenes, one from Destiny and one from, I assume, Power Play

 

 

and I guess Wes could say "I got to take a huge dump", but he couldn't then proceed to take a huge dump on camera. He'd have to do that off screen

yea I figured that. Damn now I wish they had done that . Im picturing a scene where Wes is on the bowl reading popular science or soemthin "OOh man that was a big one"

 

and also, do vampires go to the bathroom? I assume they do.

 

now Im picturing angel in the BR "oh man that must have been some bad blood"

 

 

 

 

 

 

you know its been a while since it was over when Im talking about the main characters taking a dump

[The Czech Republic 0]

I'd be happy if this thread sunk to the bottom

[Guest Brian]

Here' something to swallow:

 

"Lineage" is Wes' second chance to play out "Billy".

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You know you can't get away without explaining that bomb, Brian.

[Guest Brian]

I will. I'll explain the whole fucking thing when I hit it later this week.

[Guest Brian]

Oh wow, I never realized that scene in Home with Connor and Angel fighting was just a reaffirmation of Angel's free will, that he could have killed Connor and chose not to, even with the "prophesy" hanging over his head.

[Guest Brian]

I like that they're playing up the fact that Lorne just can't take the job, and then just blasts out of the doors singing. I kinda miss Season Two Lorne, the Host, though.

 

Eve walking in on Angel in the shower is a nice little bit of foreshadowing.

 

Wes still jealous.

 

Didn't Spike go out during Halloween in Sunnydale?

 

I like the way Lorne reasons with Angel in the limo. Trying to do his part, trying to find where he fits in.

 

Harmony, dancing.

 

I love the whole Gunn marking his territory thing. And I like how he reacts to Lorne taking his sleep, and that he wants to do the same thing.

 

Drunk Fred rules.

 

"Charles, you just peed on my shoe."

 

And Spike all fucking happy.

 

"Hey, Angel's getting some. Good on you mate."

 

Spike volunteers and Angel shoots him down. And Spike spouts off the compliments.

 

Fred and Wes get close and she asks him about Knox. Ouch!

 

"What an entrance."

 

"That's one bitchin' big suit."

 

Wes and Fred haven't even pressed the button yet.

 

"Oh my god, they shot Lornytoons."

 

What's up with the UC Santa Cruz line? In joke? But I liked how Eve played it, compared to Angel.

 

"This place is trying to change us Gunn, we can't forget that."

 

"You pissed in the big man's chair, that's fantastic."

 

Man, it took a while for it to get started but it was actually funnier than I remember. "Smile Time" and "Spin the Bottle" set the bar high though so it's tough for this to measure up, especially without the character development.

[Guest Brian]

The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco is really a good episode to sit right up next to Not Fade Away because there's so many little thread and a story that really correlates with the end result of the season. I appreciate it more everytime I see it because of that.

 

Spike busts out the "if wishes were horses" line.

 

Doesn't Fred saying, "Not number Five?" remind you of the Simpson's episode where everyone is like, "Not Lenny."

 

I love that Lorne's trying to spin this into making Angel seem evil. and Spike wants to buy Number 5 a pint.

 

The whole thing with Wes and Spike and calling shotgun was great.

 

Gunn wants to mix it up again. Get his hands dirty.

 

It's cool how Spike can't really touch the prophesy book, because it makes a nice shot of him being so close, vampire with a soul who saves the world, but not being close enough.

 

And there is this great parallel between the five brothers and Angel's family, as well as between Number Five and Angel. Because the family is going to try to wage one fight at the end of the season, and at this point Angel's totally despondent and has pulled off a devil's deal. A deal that both accepted without the consent of their family. As well, it takes the return of someone he lost (for Angel, it's Connor and Cordy) for him to realize what he is supposed to do.

 

Holland Manners, Great reference.

 

"Stick a piece of wood in it and I still die." That line is from Season Two, I just can't remember where. I think Cordy said it.

 

Angel brings up the "father kills the son". Awesome.

 

Holy shit, this is running so deep. Number Five's talking about how the demon will keep on coming back every fifty years. Like what Manners told him in the elevator. Evil keeps on coming back, no matter how many you defeat.

 

"He died a hero."

 

And then going back to Shanshu again at the end.

[Guest Brian]

Bringing back Emil from "Spin the Bottle". Well, not really, but referencing him.

 

I love that heroic, slo-mo shot of Wes jumping with the double gun action and Fred just by herself. And Wes allows Fred to get hurt, which is something he can't let happen again.

 

Bringing in the trust issue with Wes. Interesting how that plays out later.

 

Wesley getting his chance to be watcher again, which is interesting because of how it fits in with him and his arc with Illyria.

 

Back to his clumsy ways.

 

Spike brings up sex with robots. Beautiful.

 

"Greenhouse for dandies."

 

"I'm not really comfortable with hugging." That's from Orpheus.

 

Wes bumbling away with the bomb, uncomfortable watching Knox and Fred. See, this is his second chance.

 

And with his dad it's kinda like him and Giles.

 

Spike getting ready to run and then realizing he doesn't need to was great.

 

The "head boy" line is back, and Spike is playing with it.

 

I'm kinda surprised that they would have left the Lilah memories in, given that it was pretty much a low point for Wesley and his relationship with Angel.

 

Starting to play up the fact that Eve's pulling some of the string behind Spike.

 

"You'll never take me to hell Pavayne!" SPIKE~!

 

I love the little fencing thing, because it's the exact kinda thing Wes would just get looked down upon in Buffy Season 3. Being all technical and not paying attention to the field and reacting properly rather than just being rigid like his father was. Maybe part of being a good watcher is being more like Giles.

 

Wes torturing the cyborg was swank.

 

Spike doesn't even care to help out Eve.

 

And here it comes. Wesley has to make a real, hard-lined choice here. The woman he loves or his father. It's kinda like the choice Gunn made back in "Billy". Wes sacrifices as much as he can for Fred in the end. He couldn't do that back in Season Three, he couldn't make the big sacrifice for the woman he loved. He tried to compensate once by saving Connor. He'll try to compensate a second time, with Gunn. Without hesitating, Wes does what he needs to for Fred. And yet, he's left with an amazing emotional burden. But still, this is Wes' second chance to make good, to give up for Fred. He's reliving 'Billy' in a way.

 

I love how everyone tries to console Wes.

 

I also like how they talk about the perception that he was weak, that he could be used easily.

 

And he doesn't shut out Fred totally like last time. There's still a gap that couldn't be bridged, but he can look at her without a problem. But he also, like in "Billy", can't really look at himself.

 

Knox gets in the way.

 

And there's also an attempt by Wes to bridge thins, which is different. I love the little phone conversation at the end.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

That's what I figured. Wes being weak, Gunn being strong, in Billy. I don't think they're that similiar, because its hard to measure sacrifice when they're under a spell.

 

It's odd that Wes killing his father attracts Fred, but Gunn killing the professor repells her.

[Guest Brian]

It's probably because Fred was never attracted to Wes because of his innocence. I think it's part of Gunn's nobility, is that he did what was right because it was right for so long.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Plus she didn't feel that Wesley's dad was her responsibility. Plus it wasn't a dirty little secret.

 

Just finished the last 3 eps on DVD. The Girl in Question is a little better the second time through, although I still say it's too late in the series for a comedy episode and seems out of place in between Angel's going back to the dark side deal.

[Guest Brian]

I still like it alot, it's that last hurrah for Angel, establishing that everything he got for coming to Wolfram and Hart was for nothing. And that he couldn't hang on what he lost.

 

Re-watch that final bit to get how things fit into perspective. And recognize the barrir between Fred and Wes in "Billy", and the same between the two and ALSO between Wes and his father. Also recognize that Wes still thought it was his dad, no matter whate Fred told him, and how it brought out a dark edge that was still there, and contrast that to the last scene in "Billy". And on top of that, the reference to Wes finishing the job with Lilah should not be lost in the mix, becasue look how he deal with his father. Two people he cares for.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think Fred, having lived in a cave for 5 years, has a thing for sad and tortured dudes.

 

... Or men who 'save' her.

[Guest Brian]

What was so sad and tortured about Gunn?

[Jingus 0]

I recently found a Blockbuster that has all the Buffy season DVD sets available for renting, which I've been abusing since I never had the money to buy most of them. I love the insights and stories that the filmmakers' commentaries provide, but I wish they'd commentate more than just a handful of episodes per season, and that the people doing the commentary would speak up. They're talking so quietly that I can't hear them half the time, and have to turn my TV's volume all the way up; that's some spectacularly shoddy sound editing.

[Mole 0]

The Girl in Question is a little better the second time through, although I still say it's too late in the series for a comedy episode and seems out of place in between Angel's going back to the dark side deal.

One of the few reasons why season 5 isn't better than season 4. That and the whole Lindsey thing. I just didn't get that story line, even though Lindsey showing up like that was awesome.

[Guest Brian]

I think it fits in great as part of Angel's reckless actions, bringing finality to the feud with Spike, and Illyria's metamorphosis was just plain awesome. It really does establish that everything he got for coming to Wolfram and Hart was lost, was good for nothing, and that he needed to move on and fight the good fight again.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

What was so sad and tortured about Gunn?

_At the time_ in Billy, Gunn was particularly sad and tortured.