Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[razazteca 0]

I bought the tape from Blockbuster used and was so disappointed with it. If you thought Bob Holly was bad then imagine 2 wrestlers shitting on each other not wanting to do anything.

[Guest BDC]

I don't give much to Austin, especially post-neck injury.  Punchpunchpunch.  Promos?  Pretty good.  Ringwork?  Blech.

*sigh*

 

What, do I not get to express my tastes?

 

I've never been a big Austin fan, so what? People have different tastes, deal with it.

[razazteca 0]

I liked Austin until he became a drunk on tv.

[bob_barron 0]

Nice to see Ray defending Austin by using logic and well thought out points.

 

Except for his matches against The Rock- Austin was pretty bad in 1999.

 

He also was absolute ass in 2002 with the exception of two matches v. Angle.

 

I don't think Austin is one of the greatest workers ever. He's great but I've seen better

[Guest Mad the Swine]

Part of being a good worker is protecting your opponents. Vader couldn't do that with a brick.

 

Flair did have his disappointing matches with very good workers (i.e. Gordy), but part of the repitition he's judged on are the matches with Luger, Koloff, etc. What the hell was he expected to do with Koloff for an hour?

 

But going back to that, yep, it's his major fault. However, he did do something pretty innovative with it. It was a generally failproof way to get his opponent over and protect himself physically. You couldn't exactly give a few of these boys anything complex as a gameplan; that's what got Flair's the cracked disc. It sure had its shortcomings, but it was the most efficient way.

 

Up until the middle of 1986, Flair generally faced a variety of opponents. Some were better to work with than others, of course. He didn't know the traits of every worker. In some cases, he'd never seen the worker before. Afterwards, Crockett tightened the leash to keep Flair all to himself, thus limiting his opponents and his opponents' calibre. There were some good workers, but every one of them, there was Koloff, Dusty, Hawk, Animal, Luger, and either Garvin.

 

Flair did have more of a variety of moves. He could decently fly in his younger days - dropkicks, crossbody blocks, etc. He cut out the major portion of that in the early 1980s. Part of his reasoning could be for his own protection (he has to trust another to properly catch him). Another theory is that Flair cut out all offense that he didn't feel he rated higher that average at doing. Plus, the character didn't necessarily call for much of that.

 

Beyond that, Flair had a nice array of suplexes and could bodyslam - none of it was anywhere near Bockwinkel level, but it did exist to a decent degree. In later years, Flair would occasionally throw you a bone. I recall him attempting an Oklahoma roll against Fujinami, an STF or two in other matches, and though it was for comedic purposes, a ringpost figure four.

 

Flair came from a different timeframe and a different school. Verne Gagne didn't even train his guys how to punch and kick. Gagne's emphasis was on legitimately-styled wrestling holds, in addition to brutal endurance training.

 

Someone else posted that Flair was picky with his opponents. Do I have to bring out the list of people Flair's worked with, elevated, and put over? It's not short nor is it pretty. Madusa is on the list. So are Alex Wright, Billy Kidman, Rico, Hurricane, and Syxx.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I didn't list any puro guys in my list of workers because I can in no way judge how good they are at cutting promos and I find their 'playing to the crowd' spots to be way too understated for my tastes. Call me a wanker, but Kawada stretching doesn't make me all a quiver.

 

And its so obvious that Flair blows out the majority of these people in the promo department and the ability to draw people into the match it is sick. I'm sorry but trying to tell me that Benoit does more to draw crowds into his matches than Flair is sick and wrong. Half of what Flair does in their is crowd enticing.

Kawada can be very animate when the situation calls for it. For instance in the heated six man tags against Jumbo co., Kawada would do stuff like flip Jumbo off while torturing his protege, Taue, with a Scorpion Deathlock.

 

And Flair begging off, and strutting doesn't make me quiver either. It makes me chuckle though.

 

Jumbo, Hansen, and what not all have their trademark taunts as well. In fact:

 

Jumbo's arm raise>Flair's "whoo".

 

See the crowd in Jumbo's 10/91 match against Kawada for one of the most surreal taunt responses off all time. Every one in the entire building is standing, and pumping their arm in the air with Jumbo.

 

I'm not even gonna bother to get into guys like Lyger, who outclass Flair in the mannerism department so bad that it's not even funny.

 

As far as speaking skills goes, Hokuto totally kills Flair in ever department(except maybe humor), and I don't even understand what she's saying. See her "promos" leading up and after the Kandori match for some very powerful stuff.

 

And Kawada shed actual tears during his interview after his last match with Kobashi/Kikuchi as his teammates.

 

Or how about the look on his face when realizes he lost 6/3/94. Such a hearbreaking moment, that connected with me more than anything Flair ever did.

 

In his 96 match with Black Tiger(Eddy), with smart work and excellent timing, Beniot gets killer heel heat from a crowd that is normally dead during junior matches. I've never seen Flair control the crowd as well as Eddy and Beniot did that night. So it's not sick and wrong, it at times is absolutely correct.

[Guest Ray]

I don't give much to Austin, especially post-neck injury.  Punchpunchpunch.  Promos?  Pretty good.  Ringwork?  Blech.

 

*sigh*

 

 

What, do I not get to express my tastes?

 

I've never been a big Austin fan, so what? People have different tastes, deal with it.

It's not a matter of "tastes."

 

Calling Austin "punch punch punch" is like saying Flair was just "chop chop chop" or Kawada was just "kick kick kick."

 

There's MUCH more to his work than just "punches."

 

Nice to see Ray defending Austin by using logic and well thought out points.

I'm tired of bothering with it really. Psychology, selling, deep storytelling blah blah I've said it a million times. Austin was a great wrestler.

 

Except for his matches against The Rock- Austin was pretty bad in 1999.

He was injured and wrestling Undertaker and Vince McMahon all the time. He had plenty of bad matches that year, but also some good forgotten matches like with Val Venis on the 10/21/99 Smackdown.

 

He also was absolute ass in 2002 with the exception of two matches v. Angle.

He also had a good match with Booker T. 2002 may have been bad, but he was the wrestler of the year in 2001, putting on dozens of classics.

 

I don't think Austin is one of the greatest workers ever.

In the US, he is.

 

He's great but I've seen better

Yeah, I have too. Kawada, Liger, Benoit, Tsuruta, Hansen, and more are better.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I didn't list any puro guys in my list of workers because I can in no way judge how good they are at cutting promos and I find their 'playing to the crowd' spots to be way too understated for my tastes.  Call me a wanker, but Kawada stretching doesn't make me all a quiver.

 

And its so obvious that Flair blows out the majority of these people in the promo department and the ability to draw people into the match it is sick.  I'm sorry but trying to tell me that Benoit does more to draw crowds into his matches than Flair is sick and wrong.  Half of what Flair does in their is crowd enticing.

Kawada can be very animate when the situation calls for it. For instance in the heated six man tags against Jumbo co., Kawada would do stuff like flip Jumbo off while torturing his protege, Taue, with a Scorpion Deathlock.

 

And Flair begging off, and strutting doesn't make me quiver either. It makes me chuckle though.

 

Jumbo, Hansen, and what not all have their trademark taunts as well. In fact:

 

Jumbo's arm raise>Flair's "whoo".

 

See the crowd in Jumbo's 10/91 match against Kawada for one of the most surreal taunt responses off all time. Every one in the entire building is standing, and pumping their arm in the air with Jumbo.

 

I'm not even gonna bother to get into guys like Lyger, who outclass Flair in the mannerism department so bad that it's not even funny.

 

As far as speaking skills goes, Hokuto totally kills Flair in ever department(except maybe humor), and I don't even understand what she's saying. See her "promos" leading up and after the Kandori match for some very powerful stuff.

 

And Kawada shed actual tears during his interview after his last match with Kobashi/Kikuchi as his teammates.

 

Or how about the look on his face when realizes he lost 6/3/94. Such a hearbreaking moment, that connected with me more than anything Flair ever did.

 

In his 96 match with Black Tiger(Eddy), with smart work and excellent timing, Beniot gets killer heel heat from a crowd that is normally dead during junior matches. I've never seen Flair control the crowd as well as Eddy and Beniot did that night. So it's not sick and wrong, it at times is absolutely correct.

Game.Set.Match.

[bob_barron 0]

He was injured and wrestling Undertaker and Vince McMahon all the time. He had plenty of bad matches that year, but also some good forgotten matches like with Val Venis on the 10/21/99 Smackdown.

 

Austin was the one who wanted to face Taker every other month so that's his problem.

 

 

He also had a good match with Booker T. 2002 may have been bad, but he was the wrestler of the year in 2001, putting on dozens of classics.

 

Yea his match v. Booker was pretty good but for the most part he was awful. Austin won wrestle of the year by default really- Had Benoit not gotten injured I think he would've smoked Austin.

 

And being wrestler of the year in 2001 just means he had one great year. He's also had bad years.

 

QUOTE

I don't think Austin is one of the greatest workers ever.

 

In the US, he is.

 

Eh- I'm not feeling it. He was great in 1997 and 2001 but I've seen better US workers.

 

 

 

I find many of Austin's brawl all around the building brawls to be boring and not these great matches. He was a very good wrestler but not one of the greats.

[Guest Ray]

Austin was the one who wanted to face Taker every other month so that's his problem.

Well, they drew assloads of money doing it, so I can see why they did. Those matches were mostly terrible though.

 

Yea his match v. Booker was pretty good but for the most part he was awful. Austin won wrestle of the year by default really- Had Benoit not gotten injured I think he would've smoked Austin.

Yeah, but being second to Benoit isn't anything to be ashamed of. Austin's best work that year was still superb.

 

Eh- I'm not feeling it. He was great in 1997 and 2001 but I've seen better US workers.

There's Eddie Guerrero, Stan Hansen, The Destroyer...

Not many more I would rate over Austin, based on his peak work.

 

I find many of Austin's brawl all around the building brawls to be boring and not these great matches. He was a very good wrestler but not one of the greats.

Depends on which matches you're watching. I love Austin but I'll be the first to admit he had plenty of stinkers.

[Guest NCJ]

Dean Malenko, Booker at his best, Saturn at his best (WCW vs Rave, he and Raven Tag), Sting at his peek, DDP, Vader, Steamboat, Savage at his peek, Ted Dibiase, Rick Rude, Scott Steiner before all the roids, HBK, do I need to continue. Austin was great, but he was far from the best worker in the U.S. ever. Honestly he probably isn't top ten. If you say main event worker in the U.S. then he might make top ten. I still prefer Rock over Austin in and out of the ring. Austin is definately one of the greatest all around talents ever, but he is far from the best U.S. worker ever.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

You're comparing Austin to Raven and Saturn?

 

 

Oh, that's rich.

[Guest NCJ]

Purely on workrate yes. When Saturn was in the Elimanators and during his fueds with Raven, and Benoit/Malenko he was a better worker. Now he is a shell of his former self, but in his prime I would rather watch a Saturn match than an Austin match in his prime(except Austin vs. Rock Wm XVII and Austin vs. Hart both ppv matches). I never said Raven was a better worker than Austin, but I do like Raven's psychology more. He was actually a pretty good lightheavy back in the day. Raven when motivated can put on matches that are equal to Austin.

[Guest Ray]

Booker at his best

Not a chance. Has Booker ever had a match as good as Austin's at Survivor Series 96, Mania 13, Mania 17, or 5/31/01?

 

Sting at his peek

Sting? Nope.

 

Vader, Steamboat,

Forgot about Vader. I'd put him up there. I've seen Steamboat's best, and I'd rate Austin's best just as high.

 

Saturn at his best

 

Ted Dibiase,

Maybe...not seen enough of him.

 

Rick Rude, Scott Steiner before all the roids,

Are you serious with all these names?

 

HBK

Shawn wasn't better than Austin. Austin didn't do shitty no-selling superman comebacks in every match. Austin brought much deeper levels of story/psychology to his matches. Austin was a much smarter, more logical worker. Austin is EASILY better than Shawn Michaels.

 

I still prefer Rock over Austin in and out of the ring.

PLEASE explain to me how Rock is a better wrestler than Austin. Rock's best match happens to be a giant carry by Austin...

[KTID 0]

Austin > Rock

Austin > HBK

[Guest Dynamic A]

Flair is praised for having so many great matches.  Here is a list of wrestlers who had just as many great matches that were in most cases better than 95% of Flair's best matches.   

 

Mitsuharu Misawa

Toshiaki Kawada

Kenta Kobashi (just look at how his 1993 was better than any 3 years of Flair's combined)

Jushin Liger

Nobuhiko Takada

Akira Hokuto

Minami Toyota

Aja Kong

Volk Han

Tim, I am shocked... where is the Jumbo love?

 

In the ring, Jumbo Tsuruta surpassed Ric Flair in every regard... for my money, he was one of the few "total packages" in wrestling history.

 

-DA

Edited November 6, 2003 by Dynamic A

[The Czech Republic 0]

Verne Gagne didn't even train his guys how to punch and kick. Gagne's emphasis was on legitimately-styled wrestling holds, in addition to brutal endurance training.

He didn't train them to brawl! He trained them to FUCK!

[Guest ligerbomb03]

Dick Togo

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I am gonna go back to a previous arguement in the thread that I missed and say that Steve Austin is a great wrestler. Maybe not the best, but he was great.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Jumbo too....don't know how that slipped...maybe it is my intense dislike of wrestling that I have been feeling for the past couple of days.

 

Oh and to the guy who said Sting in his prime wasn't as good as Austin...

 

Sting vs. Vader (7/12/92, 12/27/92, and 2/21/93).

 

I'd put Austin's best against any of those.

 

Survivor Series....haven;t seen in quite a while. Possibly...

 

The WM match versus Hart has Austin bleeding but not adding to the match as much as Sting contributed in all three matches.

 

Mania 17 was an outstandingly FUN match, but not MOTYC level of the Sting/Vader series.

 

And the Benoit Smackdown match....nope, if just because the Raw match was better and that match doesn't come close to Vader/Sting.

 

Tim

[The Kid 0]

Flair is not either the best wrestler ever or the best worker ever...I've never understood the hype that surrounded Ric Flair. His matches are incredibly repetitive, so are his promos...come on, enough about your "high life" already Ric. Granted, he has had a few good matches(Steamboat) and some good promos as well, but the best ever? No chance in hell. When I think of the best ever, I think of guys that incorporate something new into every match, getting the fans hooked every night. Guys that bust their asses to make it worth it for not only the company, but the fans as well.

In my opinion better workers/wrestlers than Ric Flair are:

Owen Hart-He could cut a hell of a promo, got the fans into his character and was a tremendous wrestler. Total package right here.

Dynamite Kid-Superb wrestler, one of the best ever, he busted his ass for the fans. Didn't even attempt promos, his actions spoke for him.

Chris Benoit-Same as Dynamite Kid, he will go down in the history books as one of the best technical wrestlers ever.

Bret Hart-Say what you will about him half-assing house shows, he was a great wrestler and super at promos as well.

Mick Foley-It's all been said before, he worked so hard for his spot and it payed off. One of the best talkers ever, and one of the best wrestlers.

[Guest Ray]

Being carried by Vader makes Sting better than Austin?

[Downhome 0]

I'll never understand how anyone can say that Mick Foley is one of the best WRESTLERS of all time, and I mean never.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Vader didn't carry Sting. It was clearly Vader's match but Sting did everything in his role perfectly.

 

Vader carried Inoki on 1/4/96.

 

Jumbo didn't carry Kobashi on 5/24/91. They worked as an equal partnership, though it was clear that Kobashi was the young upstart who had little chance of dethroning Tsuruta.

 

Vader and Sting worked together.

 

Tim

[Downhome 0]

I agree with you 100% about Sting/Vader, both men brought their A games that night, and they both played their roles perfectly.

 

The Vader/Inoki match is just great, I still bust that one out and watch it every so offten. I still cringe at that German.

[bob_barron 0]

Mick Foley a better wrestler then Ric Flair? HA

 

Mick's had some wonderful matches but the guy hasn't wrestled as long and had as many great matches as Ric Flair did.

 

Flair SMOKES Bret in terms of promos. Flair's promos made you think you would get something special if you bought what he was selling.

 

Look a couple weeks ago where he was trying to motivate Shawn- just great stuff.

 

Good to see Tim and DH feeling the Sting v. Vader love

[Downhome 0]

Mick Foley a better wrestler then Ric Flair? HA

 

Mick's had some wonderful matches but the guy hasn't wrestled as long and had as many great matches as Ric Flair did.

 

Flair SMOKES Bret in terms of promos. Flair's promos made you think you would get something special if you bought what he was selling.

 

Look a couple weeks ago where he was trying to motivate Shawn- just great stuff.

 

Good to see Tim and DH feeling the Sting v. Vader love

I don't see how you COULDN'T love, or at least like, Sting/Vader, that's a match all Pro. Wrestling fans could appriciate, and understand.

 

At least that's what I thought.

 

I'll never buy into the "Bret's good at interviews" deal. The only time that I've ever really enjoyed him on the stick was in his feud with his brother Owen, and the only reason that he was that great durring all of that is because true emotion was at play. Other than that, he just seemd like he was speaking for the hell of it, not because he truly felt anything with what was going on. There may have been a few other times where I "felt it" with him on the stick, but not many at all.

[razazteca 0]

Foley is the greates brawler & insane bump machine ever! Plus his promos ruled HE ATE WORMS! DORITOS! AND WAS HARDCORE!

[Fökai 0]

Owen Hart-He could cut a hell of a promo, got the fans into his character and was a tremendous wrestler. Total package right here.

 

Dynamite Kid-Superb wrestler, one of the best ever, he busted his ass for the fans. Didn't even attempt promos, his actions spoke for him.

 

Bret Hart-Say what you will about him half-assing house shows, he was a great wrestler and super at promos as well.

 

Mick Foley-It's all been said before, he worked so hard for his spot and it payed off. One of the best talkers ever, and one of the best wrestlers.

 

On a pure overall standpoint, none of these wrestlers (save Foley) could get me as intensely prepared for a match as Flair could.

 

The Hart brothers told a story in the ring, but that was sometimes not all of it. Owen was simply Dynamite with a better character and psychological work, but he still trails Flair.

 

Dynamite glosses over an entire portion of being a great OVERALL worker - the mic work and promo ability.

[Downhome 0]

I personally prefer Arn Anderson's work on the stick over most people mentioned in this thread, sans Flair and MAYBE Foley.