The OAO NHL 2003-2004 Season Thread

[Brush with Greatness 0]

Ohh, I agree that some of the Stevens hits are/were legal (although there were a few where he leaves his feet which technically is a no-no). Wasn't there supposed to be some mandate about cracking down on contact to the head though a few years back.

 

I'm just saying that in my view those hits should be illegal. He is often headhunting and looking to plant his shoulder right into the guys head and gives that snap thing upon contact (almost like an elbow, although it is the shoulder making contact).

 

There are many times in hockey were you are in a vulnerable position, and as exciting as hits can be, something needs to be done about all the concussions. The removal of the seamless glass was one good step. Now they need to get rid of any head blows and actually have some restrictions on how solid elbow pads can be. My buddy had a pair of used elbow pads (hell, I think they might have even been from the Bruins) and I was amazed at how hard they were. They are nothing like you can get at the regular sport store. You take one of those elbow pads in your hand and whack someone across the head with it and I wouldn't be surpised if it knocked them out.

[starvenger 0]

Tony Granato should know this, he was an enforcer type player, and knew that when in this type of blow out game, you don't put out marked men, or superstars out there.

I wouldn't call him an "enforcer" - he wasn't good enough in that department. More of a journeyman power forward. His sister was way more talented.

 

Oh, get off your fucking high horses (especially you Winnie the Pooh fans - McSorely's actions were far worse).

I contend that it's just as bad. Both were attacks from behind, but one was with a stick, and one was with a roundhouse right. In both cases there was no way for the player to defend themselves.

 

Hell, I think Bertuzzi's intent was to get Moore to fight back. When he saw Moore going down, I think he went down with him to beat on a guy that was turtling (ring a bell Bruins fans?).

If you look at the replay, Bertuzzi - from behind - grabbed Moore's sweater to ensure that the punch would land. As Moore was kayoed, and Bertuzzi still had a handful of sweater, he went down with the dead weight. If you want to fight a guy, the unwritten code requires that you give the guy at least a sporting chance. There was none here for Moore.

 

Like McSorley, this was clearly premeditated, and the suspension should reflect that. But then, I'm a guy who thought that Heatley should rot in jail for a year or two as well.

[DerangedHermit 0]

In regards to the Rangers firesale, they traded with all the Canadian teams.

 

Leafs: Leetch

Flames: Simon

Habs: Kovalev

Oilers: Nedved

Sens: DeVries

Canucks: Rucinsky

 

plus a team that used to be Canadian:

Avs: Barnaby

 

It's also nice to see they got Sandy McCarthy back (claimed off of waivers from Bruins)

[nl5xsk1 0]

Tony Granato should know this, he was an enforcer type player, and knew that when in this type of blow out game, you don't put out marked men, or superstars out there.

I wouldn't call him an "enforcer" - he wasn't good enough in that department. More of a journeyman power forward. His sister was way more talented.

 

Oh, get off your fucking high horses (especially you Winnie the Pooh fans - McSorely's actions were far worse).

I contend that it's just as bad. Both were attacks from behind, but one was with a stick, and one was with a roundhouse right. In both cases there was no way for the player to defend themselves.

 

Hell, I think Bertuzzi's intent was to get Moore to fight back. When he saw Moore going down, I think he went down with him to beat on a guy that was turtling (ring a bell Bruins fans?).

If you look at the replay, Bertuzzi - from behind - grabbed Moore's sweater to ensure that the punch would land. As Moore was kayoed, and Bertuzzi still had a handful of sweater, he went down with the dead weight. If you want to fight a guy, the unwritten code requires that you give the guy at least a sporting chance. There was none here for Moore.

 

Like McSorley, this was clearly premeditated, and the suspension should reflect that. But then, I'm a guy who thought that Heatley should rot in jail for a year or two as well.

Didn't Granato get a 10-15 game suspension for a stick violation when he was still playing? If my memory serves me correctly (and I do admit that my memory is pretty iffy) he cross checked a Blackhawk and left him twitching on the ice. So, he's not in a position to say that the Bertuzzi hit was the 'worst ever' or any crap like that.

 

And I'm probably in the minority, but I really think that the McSorley hit on Brashear was no where near as bad as Bertuzzi's (or May's hit on Heinze, or Hunter's on Turgeon, or Dino's on Richardson, etc). McSorley was trying to fight Brashear, and Brash was unwilling, so Marty went to hit him on the shoulder. Unfortunately, he missed and ended up tapping his head. Was it wrong to do? Yeah, no doubt, but it wasn't the Paul Bunyan-esque swing that it's been hyped up to be. And I still think that Brashear should have fought McSorley; they'd fought earlier and after winning Brashear taunted McSorley (breaking one 'enforcer code' rule) taunted and instigated with non-fighters from the Bruins throughout the game (breaking a second 'enforcer code' rule) and then refused to give McSorley a rematch (breaking a third 'enforcer code' rule). He didn't deserve the concussion, but if he'd played by the unwritten rules it wouldn't have happened.

 

Lastly, what do you guys think that Bertuzzi was saying/doing when he was stalking Moore right before the sucker punch? My impression was that he wanted to fight Moore face-to-face, and when Moore was unwilling to go with him he just flipped out and thus assaulted him. Again, I'm not saying that Moore deserved to be so seriously injured, but it could have been very easily avoided if they'd just dropped the gloves.

 

On an unrelated note, the Rangers can have McCarthy back. There's a reason that he's been a healthy scratch since recovering from his jaw/concussion injury: he wasn't enforcing before he got hurt and doesn't have enough skill to do much besides fight. What's the point of having a fighter if he's unwilling to fight?

[C Dubya 04 0]

McSorley didn't tap him on the head, he took a full swing at him and almost killed him. He probably was aiming at the shoulder, but regardless it was pretty fucked up.

 

 

In non-fighting news, the Flyers beat NJ in Jersey to put a lot of distance between the teams. I am starting to believe that the Flyers might not fall apart this year in the playoffs. That's how they suck you back in, to crush the spirit once again.

[nl5xsk1 0]

McSorley didn't tap him on the head, he took a full swing at him and almost killed him. He probably was aiming at the shoulder, but regardless it was pretty fucked up.

Compared to Ciccarelli hitting Richardson, May hitting Heinze, Granato hitting ______ (can't think of the Blackhawk player's name), or Guerin hitting his teammate in the preseason 2 years ago, the McSorley hit was a light shot. He didn't take a full swing, he took the equivalent of a golf-putt. Hard enough to do damage, obviously, but when you compare the way the victims went down, the effects of the swing were obvious. Brashear fell backwards, showing that he was knocked for a loop; the other victims all crumpled like they'd been shot. If McSorley had hit Brashear with a full swing, he'd have fallen forward not backward.

 

Fucked up, yes, but not a full swing that 'almost killed him'.

[treble 0]

Granato two-handed Neil Wilkinson across the head way back when.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Naslund said. ``He wanted to make a point that you don't go out and hit our players.''

 

This quote is the one thing I hate about hockey. If you don't expect to take a hit, you're in the wrong fucking sport. I've seen too many times where a "star" player will take a clean hit and then a teammate will race in there ,dropping his gloves,to "protect" the player.

 

``If most people knew how upset Todd was by the result of what happened they would have a different view on things,'' said teammate Trevor Linden, also president of the NHL Players' Association.

 

 

No ,Mr.Linden..... I certainly wouldn't. This isn't like Dany Heatley screwing around with a fast car and accidentally killing Dan Snyder. This was a premeditated attack by a thug with All Star hands and a pee wee brain.

[Lightning Flik 0]

No ,Mr.Linden..... I certainly wouldn't. This isn't like Dany Heatley screwing around with a fast car and accidentally killing Dan Snyder. This was a premeditated attack by a thug with All Star hands and a pee wee brain.

You forgot to add that has now handicapped his team for the remainder of this season.

 

This is just ugly. I don't see how players can justify what was done as if to brush it aside as nothing. The man has a very serious injury that will have lasting effects on his life.

[Red Baron 0]

Matt Johnson of the Los Angeles Kings was handed a 12 game suspension for deliberately injuring Jeff Beukeboom of the New York Rangers in 1998. Beukeboom's subsequent head injury eventually forced him out of the game.

 

 

 

Philadelphia goalie Ron Hextall also received a 12 game suspension for attacking Montreal's Chris Chelios during a playoff game in 1989 while Owen Nolan, then of the San Jose Sharks, got 11 games for hitting Grant Marshall in the head in 2001.

 

 

 

Winnipeg's Jimmy Mann got 10 games for sucker-punching Pittsburgh's Paul Gardner in 1982 while Ruslan Salei of Anaheim was hit with a 10 game suspension for hitting Mike Modano of the Dallas Stars from behind in 1999.

 

 

I just clipped that from TSN at the end of the article.

[Guest Bottled Black]

Bertuzzi's suspension should be announced sometime around 9 AM (Eastern) by Colin Campbell according to WFAN in NY

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Wow

 

ESPN News actually has a graphic in the corner of the screen that stays there with a note about the time of the Bertuzzi decision.

 

ESPN actually considers a hockey story important.....I'm just stunned.

[the max 0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1756628

 

Remainder of the season and playoffs. Hopefully they weren't swayed by his "emotional press conference"

[CanadianChris 0]

The league office had probably already made its decision before the press conference, so I doubt it.

 

So apparently, the Bertuzzi cheap shot = the McSorley cheap shot, since they got exactly the same penalty.

[starvenger 0]

Not a bad verdict. I also find it interesting that the suspension will be "reassessed" before next training camp. Did they truly want to reassess it, or did they figure that there's no point in suspending someone for a season that may not happen?

[Red Baron 0]

I agree with this call.

 

Anything into next year would be dumb by the NHL

[nl5xsk1 0]

Not a bad verdict.  I also find it interesting that the suspension will be "reassessed" before next training camp.  Did they truly want to reassess it, or did they figure that there's no point in suspending someone for a season that may not happen?

I thought that the league was going to wait and see how the Canucks did this postseason before deciding whether or not to add more games next season. If Vancouver gets swept in the first round, or lose in either 5 or 6 games, the total suspension will be less than 20 games, and thus would be shorter than the last few 'big' suspensions. However, if the Canucks get to round 2 or beyond, the suspension will be longer than the others and thus more games next year would not be necessary.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

I've heard that if Moore is not back next season then Tod won't be back either.

 

I agree with the suspension and I hope that this is the end of it all

[Lightning Flik 0]

Considering the injury is two broken vertebre, I doubt Moore will be back for the supposed 2004-05 season. Just don't think he'll recover quickly enough (meaning Bertuzzi won't either). Those types of injuries take a hell of a long time to heal. Usually.

[Red Baron 0]

I've heard that if Moore is not back next season then Tod won't be back either.

i hate when people mention this, because thats not justified.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

It sure as hell is justified.

 

If you end someone's career on a cheap shot...your's should be over too.

 

He may not have intended to break his neck...but he DID intend to punch him from behind like a pussy...so anything that results from that premeditated action is completely 100% his fault.

[Brush with Greatness 0]

It sure as hell is justified.

 

If you end someone's career on a cheap shot...your's should be over too.

 

He may not have intended to break his neck...but he DID intend to punch him from behind like a pussy...so anything that results from that premeditated action is completely 100% his fault.

Oh, this is a load of shit.

 

By that logic couldn't contributing to ending someone's career ending also warrant a suspension.

 

Ulfie should have been suspended for life for taking out Cam Neely (which I'm sure the Pooh Bear fans will stupidly agree with).

 

Ryan Vandunbusche (believe it was him) ended Kypreos' career in a fight so he should be gone for life (seeing as how fighting isn't legal).

 

Matt Johnson's punch on Beukeboom ended his career so he should be gone for life.

 

Who gave Pat Lafontaine his last concussion because that guy should be gone for life.

 

Not to mention anyone that has contributed to Lindros's eventual retirement. Because even though some of Steven's hits may have been legal by the book, they were headshots none the less and headshots are considered a cheap shot.

 

Hell, Gary Suter should have been suspended for life back in 1991 because his cross check on Wayne Gretzky eventually led to Gretzky's retirement (as he probably would have played a few more seasons with a better back).

 

What else?

 

 

 

the total suspension will be less than 20 games, and thus would be shorter than the last few 'big' suspensions.

 

Umm, what last few big suspensions are you talking about that 20 games would be shorter than?

 

 

 

I think the best part of this is that by giving out such a huge suspension, the NHL alleviates itself of any blame when clearly the league itself is the primary reason this happened.

 

The NHL clearly supports the mob mentality and eye for an eye theory and it is evidenced by not only allowing fighting but encouraging vengeance.

 

It is a rarity for the league to step in and take any action when teams threaten "Oh, we're gonna kill 'em next game." Why, because hype sells tickets.

 

On top of this though, while encouraging players to police themselves, the NHL puts a strict limit on it with the instigator rule.

 

When Naslund was injured the Canucks were in the middle of a 0-0 battle with the Avs late in the second. And considering the Canucks lost out on a divisional title to the Avs last year by a single point this four-point game was fairly meaningful.

 

An instigator penalty, and the Avs powerplay that would come with it could have proved costly not only in the game but also in the season for the Canucks.

 

Without the instigator rule, the Canucks could have thrown Wade Brookbank over the boards to beat the shit out of Moore. The incident would have ended that night and none of this ugliness would have occured.

 

 

But no, this isn't the NHL's fault by any means. The blame lies squarely on Todd Bertuzzi's shoulders because he is a BAD, BAD man and should be suspended for life as a result. Some of you people are stupid.

 

Not that I'm condoning what Bertuzzi did. However, I would say that Bertuzzi is about 50% responsible for this happening because he carried out the actions, but the NHL is 25% and Steve Moore himself 25% because both should take partial blame for failing to carry out the measures that they could to prevent this.

[The Czech Republic 0]

This is not fair to Bertuzzi. Granted, what he did was wrong. But shame on Granato and the Avalanche for putting Steve Moore on the ice with men who are out for revenge, in a game in which the outcome is not in question. OF COURSE somebody is going to figure the time is ripe to get retribution for what Moore did to Naslund, and Bertuzzi was the one who took the job. Moore and Granato made their beds on this one. I say keep him out of the rest of the regular season but by all means bring him back for the playoffs. If Colorado and Vancouver meet somewhere in the postseason, I don't think we're done with injuries.

[treble 0]

Didn't Pat Lafontaine get his last concussion colliding with a teammate?

[Guest AllCanadian]

It sure as hell is justified.

 

If you end someone's career on a cheap shot...your's should be over too.

 

He may not have intended to break his neck...but he DID intend to punch him from behind like a pussy...so anything that results from that premeditated action is completely 100% his fault.

Oh, this is a load of shit.

 

By that logic couldn't contributing to ending someone's career ending also warrant a suspension.

 

Ulfie should have been suspended for life for taking out Cam Neely (which I'm sure the Pooh Bear fans will stupidly agree with).

 

Ryan Vandunbusche (believe it was him) ended Kypreos' career in a fight so he should be gone for life (seeing as how fighting isn't legal).

 

Matt Johnson's punch on Beukeboom ended his career so he should be gone for life.

 

Who gave Pat Lafontaine his last concussion because that guy should be gone for life.

 

Not to mention anyone that has contributed to Lindros's eventual retirement. Because even though some of Steven's hits may have been legal by the book, they were headshots none the less and headshots are considered a cheap shot.

 

Hell, Gary Suter should have been suspended for life back in 1991 because his cross check on Wayne Gretzky eventually led to Gretzky's retirement (as he probably would have played a few more seasons with a better back).

 

What else?

 

 

 

the total suspension will be less than 20 games, and thus would be shorter than the last few 'big' suspensions.

 

Umm, what last few big suspensions are you talking about that 20 games would be shorter than?

 

 

 

I think the best part of this is that by giving out such a huge suspension, the NHL alleviates itself of any blame when clearly the league itself is the primary reason this happened.

 

The NHL clearly supports the mob mentality and eye for an eye theory and it is evidenced by not only allowing fighting but encouraging vengeance.

 

It is a rarity for the league to step in and take any action when teams threaten "Oh, we're gonna kill 'em next game." Why, because hype sells tickets.

 

On top of this though, while encouraging players to police themselves, the NHL puts a strict limit on it with the instigator rule.

 

When Naslund was injured the Canucks were in the middle of a 0-0 battle with the Avs late in the second. And considering the Canucks lost out on a divisional title to the Avs last year by a single point this four-point game was fairly meaningful.

 

An instigator penalty, and the Avs powerplay that would come with it could have proved costly not only in the game but also in the season for the Canucks.

 

Without the instigator rule, the Canucks could have thrown Wade Brookbank over the boards to beat the shit out of Moore. The incident would have ended that night and none of this ugliness would have occured.

 

 

But no, this isn't the NHL's fault by any means. The blame lies squarely on Todd Bertuzzi's shoulders because he is a BAD, BAD man and should be suspended for life as a result. Some of you people are stupid.

 

Not that I'm condoning what Bertuzzi did. However, I would say that Bertuzzi is about 50% responsible for this happening because he carried out the actions, but the NHL is 25% and Steve Moore himself 25% because both should take partial blame for failing to carry out the measures that they could to prevent this.

This man is smart. Everyone crying for a life time ban or even a year suspenion (or the complete moron who stood outside the ACC for the hearing preaching his want to a "4 year ban and 3.2 million fine. why did you even wake up buddy??) is someone who doesn't follow the game and therefore shouldn't even speak on it. Brian Burke said in a press conference that Moore could be skating within 4-6 weeks so obviously this isn't as serious as people are making it out to be. Bertuzzi is a bad man he obviously broke the rules but Moore broke the unwritten rule that you don't injure other teams stars with a lunging elbow then not answer the bell when your time has come to back it up.

[the max 0]

but Moore broke the unwritten rule that you don't injure other teams stars with a lunging elbow then not answer the bell when your time has come to back it up.

 

Moore, COL, major (fighting), 6:36; Cooke, VAN, major (fighting), 6:36.

 

From the boxscore. http://tsn.ca/nhl/box_score.asp?yy=2004&mm...58&gameStatus=2

 

Looks like he answered the bell to me. Bertuzzi apparently didn't think that a checking center fighting a goon did it well enough. Moore's hit was an accident, Naslund didn't have a problem with the hit:

 

"The hit itself wasn't dirty," Naslund said. But what bothered the Canucks star is the attitude Moore demonstrated.

 

"He took advantage of me being in a vulnerable position and he looked to hit me there,'' Naslund said Wednesday. "You need to finish your hits but there is no reason to go after the head. I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players."

 

So basically, Moore finishes his check (which I was always told to do by my coaches), hits Naslund with a questionable hit, and gets his ass kicked by Cooke, but that's not good enough? Did I miss something here? Naslund is OK, right? Yeah, he is. He missed three games.

 

Moore fights Cooke, but to Bertuzzi, he needs to pay even MORE?! How so? He fought, he got repaid for the hit, he moved on. Bertuzzi should heed Naslund's advice of

"You need to finish your hits but there is no reason to go after the head. I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players."

 

I said a year ban based on what happened to Marty McSorley (which I hate that this is compared to because it's different.) McSorley got a year. Bertuzzi should too.

[CanadianChris 0]

I said a year ban based on what happened to Marty McSorley (which I hate that this is compared to because it's different.) McSorley got a year. Bertuzzi should too.

But McSorley didn't get a year -- he got 23 games, or the remainder of the season. He had the same proviso attached to his suspension (that he must apply for reinstatement), but retired instead.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

We're not talking about a clean hit here.

 

We're talking about a premeditated attack...the results of with he should be 100% responsible for.

 

If they guy had broken his neck during a fight...that's alot different than being grabbed from behind and suckerpunched.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Didn't Pat Lafontaine get his last concussion colliding with a teammate?

yes.

[treble 0]

For some non-Bertuzzi discussion:

 

Trevor Kidd showed again tonight that he sucks, so I'm upset that the Leafs didn't get a better back-up at the deadline. I mean, Roman Turek was available for nothing (and he was Belfour's back-up in Dallas when they won the Cup, so they probably get along), the Avs gave up a bag of pucks to get Salo from Edmonton, and Kolzig probably would have come cheap. Maybe they can convince Patrick Roy to come out of retirement, just in case...