Benoit vs. HHH to change

[Youth N Asia 0]

well...if Benoit does somehow win the belt you can bet it's a month and out, jobbing it back to HHH

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I forsee HHH pinning HBK at Mania. Then going on to face Benoit the next month in Edmonton.

[Guest KJ Brackish]

And I forsee the Dubya Eee, giving him the title at WrestleMania and Mr. HHH will make him job it back on a RAW (Please God NO.....don't lose title image) or the next PPV. ***Think Bret Hart screwjob.....I mean it is Canada people*** HHH will be HHHating in Edmonton.

 

DFA

[The Robfather 0]

Ha! Sounds like going to RAW was a great idea for Chris... he'll be lost in mid-card hell in no time.

 

Fuck you HHH!

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

At least Eddy is winning the title.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Yes. At least Eddy is winning the title.

 

*Waits to see that not happen*

[Guest CubbyBear]

I don't give a damn about mic skills and charisma. I'm in this for the wrestling and HBK CANNOT touch Benoit in the ring......hell he can't even come close....they aren't even in the same league. And that's pretty much a fact not an opinion.

 

It's all well and good that YOU'RE in it for the wrestling...but YOU'RE not the only one watching. Benoit is a complete bore on the mic while being really good in the ring. HBK has charisma and mic skills and is really good in the ring therefor he's an OVERALL better performer then Benoit. Deal with it.

 

As far as the ring work - Saying that Benoit and HBK aren't even in the same league is definitly not a fact and pretty ridiculous.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

HBK's mic skills are fooking horrible. While he may be boring, at least Benoit doesn't say stupid, embarrasing shit like Michaels.

 

HBK isn't in Benoit's league from a pure in-ring standpoint. That's always been the case.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I don't understand why people like HBK. I don't think he's particularly good at anything...and his spot and the time he gets probably could have gotten 3 other people over since his return.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I don't give a damn about mic skills and charisma. I'm in this for the wrestling and HBK CANNOT touch Benoit in the ring......hell he can't even come close....they aren't even in the same league. And that's pretty much a fact not an opinion.

 

It's all well and good that YOU'RE in it for the wrestling...but YOU'RE not the only one watching. Benoit is a complete bore on the mic while being really good in the ring. HBK has charisma and mic skills and is really good in the ring therefor he's an OVERALL better performer then Benoit. Deal with it.

 

As far as the ring work - Saying that Benoit and HBK aren't even in the same league is definitly not a fact and pretty ridiculous.

HBK is good but it is a fact Benoit's a step above Michaels in the ring.

 

Benoit's better at strikes.

 

He executes everything with precision which is one of the main problems of HBK.

 

Benoit's better at selling after getting hit with something. He's also better at selling overall fatigue.

 

More versatile. More innovative as well.

 

Like Benoit's transistions better

 

Better moveset

 

Brings more energy to the ring

[Damaramu 0]

Yeah there is pretty much a universal criteria on what makes a good wrestler and using that Benoit is leagues ahead of HBK.....sorry dude.......deal with it.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

The plan now for the WrestleMania XX World Title match is to have a three way involving Triple H, Chris Benoit, and Shawn Michaels. It was originally thought that Triple H and Benoit would go one on one for the title.

 

Credit: PWInsider.com

 

Lame.

[Guest CubbyBear]

Yeah there is pretty much a universal criteria on what makes a good wrestler and using that Benoit is leagues ahead of HBK.....sorry dude.......deal with it.

 

A universal criteria? You've gotta be kidding me. You're telling me that if a wrestler doesn't fit this criteria you're talking about he's bad? Gimme a fuckin' break.

 

HBK is good but it is a fact Benoit's a step above Michaels in the ring.

 

Benoit's better at strikes.

 

He executes everything with precision which is one of the main problems of HBK.

 

Benoit's better at selling after getting hit with something. He's also better at selling overall fatigue.

 

More versatile. More innovative as well.

 

Like Benoit's transistions better

 

Better moveset

 

Brings more energy to the ring

 

I can't see how people say it's a fact that Benoit is better. It's your opinion. I enjoy watching HBK more. There are people I know that like HBK more. Just because Benoit is the perfect wrestler for some of you guys doesn't make it a fact that he's better than HBK.

 

There are some things that I agree with like Benoit executing everything with precision and how he's better at strikes. I don't think he brings more energy to the ring than HBK. I completely disagree with you saying that Benoit sells better after getting hit with something.

 

I don't understand why people like HBK. I don't think he's particularly good at anything...and his spot and the time he gets probably could have gotten 3 other people over since his return.

 

Look, I'm obviously not going to win a debate on a board that has been known to be anti-HBK. You have your reasons for not liking him and that's fine. I don't get it but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

 

HBK's mic skills are fooking horrible. While he may be boring, at least Benoit doesn't say stupid, embarrasing shit like Michaels.

 

HBK isn't in Benoit's league from a pure in-ring standpoint. That's always been the case.

 

Benoit's been pretty much cutting the same promo for the past two years. He doesn't have any room to say anything stupid cuz he says the same shit every time he's got a mic.

 

Again, I don't see how you figure HBK isn't even in Benoit's league from the in-ring standpoint. While Benoit may be regarded as better on the internet, HBK is more over at the arenas and is more exciting to watch to the casual fans who really don't pay attention to some of the things that people mentioned BEnoit was better then HBK at.

[Damaramu 0]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Oh and Benoit doesn't sell better? Well I've never known Benoit to get hit with a truckload of offense and then kip up and defeat his opponent with one shot. But HBK does that all the time.

And HBK brings more energy? Sure.....that's why I'm on the edge of my seat in every Benoit match and the only time I've been on the edge of my seat in an HBK match was at Survivor Series this past year. Yep....like I said.....Benoit is miles ahead of HBK in the ring and there's no way you're going to change that.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

I can't see how people say it's a fact that Benoit is better. It's your opinion.

 

I'll admit that it's not a 100% set-in-stone fact like, say, that it is a fact that the Earth is flat. However, there is a lot of substance that states that Benoit is a much better wrestler than Shawn Michaels. When you look at a selection of HBK matches and break them down, they wouldn't compare to a selection of Benoit's. Michaels work was way too formulaic for my liking, as a face he works a very similar match every time he's out there and for the most part, doesn't adapt his formula to suit the psychology of a match.

 

I enjoy watching HBK more. There are people I know that like HBK more.

 

There are probably many people who'd prefer to hear crappy pop music instead of a Benoit match, but that doesn't mean that *insert random pop star here* a better wrestler than Benoit. This may be more exaggerated than comparing an individual's enjoyment between Michaels and Benoit, but it is still makes the point that what somebody "likes" isn't always better than something else.

 

Just because Benoit is the perfect wrestler for some of you guys doesn't make it a fact that he's better than HBK.

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread call Benoit perfect, and I know I don't consider him to be perfect (although no wrestler is, in my view, without their flaws; no matter how minor they may be;)). What makes Benoit a better wrestler is that he worked/works much better matches, is more consistent, much longer peak, more versatile (he's mastered the majority of wrestling styles on planet outside of King Road's style, shoot and probably a couple of others), he's a better carrier... I could go on, but I'll just summarise by saying that Benoit is better than Shawn in every category except maybe bumping (both were great at it), charisma (even though Michaels can't beat the depth of Benoit character or his intensity). That's really about it.

 

I completely disagree with you saying that Benoit sells better after getting hit with something.

 

Michaels' selling has always annoyed me. He'll go from screaming his lungs out/getting knocked "out-cold"/or being in a state where it looks like he'll never walk again---to kipping-up, dancing and running though his spots etc. His selling of impact was very good, but it'd look silly when he'd just ignore it seconds later to get a pop out of the crowd.

 

Michaels was a good wrestler and is still decent from what I've seen, but I've never really understood the HBK vibe.

[Guest krazykat72]

I personally find benoit to be a slightly better worker than Shawn, but I've always enjoyed Shawn much, much more as a character. But for people to say he doesn't adjust to fit the formula of the match really need to pop in a tape of the Foley match or the Hell in a Cell. Those are two prime examples of him totally changing his style to fit the match, and he worked one as a heel and one face. Also to claim that benoit's character has much depth at all is suspect, b/c there really is no character. He's a great wrestler, that's it. I agree on most points about Benoit being better than michaels, but not when saying he's a better carrier, since Michaels carried Sid and Nash to their best matches ever or the absolutely ridiculous claim that a decent Benoit match is better than Michaels best. In fact, that statement is asinine. Be it the Foley match, HiaC, either Ladder Match, the Jarrett match, or anymore of Shawn's best work, they are better all but a few of Benoit's matches. Whether they top the Sasuke match or the Black Tiger one is another argument.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I'll admit that it's not a 100% set-in-stone fact like, say, that it is a fact that the Earth is flat. However, there is a lot of substance that states that Benoit is a much better wrestler than Shawn Michaels. When you look at a selection of HBK matches and break them down, they wouldn't compare to a selection of Benoit's. Michaels work was way too formulaic for my liking, as a face he works a very similar match every time he's out there and for the most part, doesn't adapt his formula to suit the psychology of a match.

 

I don't watch a wrestling match to 'break it down'. I watch a wrestling match to enjoy it and mark out. That's something that Shawn Michaels can me me do in an instant and I enjoy watching him more than I enjoy watching Chris Benoit. Does that make me wrong ? Of course it doesn't, it just means that I like Michaels much more.

 

I hate the fact that people bring up the whole opinion line, and then when someone states their opinion their called wrong.

[Austin3164life 0]

What the others are trying to say is that it's fine if you like Shawn Michaels more, but I think it's strange to say that Shawn is better than Benoit. I feel Benoit is a much better wrestler than Shawn. Fact is, you might think HBK is better because he entertains you more, but Benoit is a far better wrestler than Shawn Michaels ever was.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

I never said he was wrong for liking or enjoying Michaels; I just debated that Benoit is a better wrestler than him. I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

But for people to say he doesn't adjust to fit the formula of the match really need to pop in a tape of the Foley match or the Hell in a Cell.

 

I think you're referring to my post;), but I did say most of the time. There were instances when he worked a smart match, such as Mind Games, Mania 10, Survivors Series '92 and the 97 RAW tag against Owen and Bulldog. However, I disagree with the HIAC match, which wasn't really all that good.

 

The majority of time though, he wouldn't sell anything longer than 30 seconds.

 

Also to claim that benoit's character has much depth at all is suspect, b/c there really is no character.

 

To get the true gist of Benoit's character you need to watch his matches as that is where he displays it. In his career he's played multiple roles well, it's just he doesn't really display his character in some-sort of an over-the-top manner so not too many people pick up on it. His deepest matches are not in the WWE though.

 

but not when saying he's a better carrier, since Michaels carried Sid and Nash to their best matches ever

 

The Survivors Series match against Sid was solid but overrated. I give Shawn credit for getting something decent out of him, but in essence all he did was pretty much bump for him and the finish didn't make sense. I'd say that Survivors 95 match between Nash and Bret was better than the Michaels/Nash match.

 

Benoit's carry jobs are however much more impressive.

 

vs. Koji Kanemoto 1995-I think they've had more than one match in 95 but I'm refering to the one that's finished with a tiger suplex. Actually, I'd say it's not only better than anything Michaels was doing at the time; but also just as good as or better than any HBK match. Benoit does a very good job of playing to Koji's strengths and building from there. He did really well to not let Kanemoto go on a no-selling rampage like he has done on many occasions. I'd probably take this over the Liger/Kanemoto series also.

 

vs. Nick Dinsmore OVW 2001-Dinsmore is a solid talent but it is pretty obvious that Benoit is calling the shots. Good young underdog vs. angry veteran psychology.

 

Vs. Buff Bagwell WCW 99?-not sure of the exact date, but this is far and away the best Bagwell match I've seen. Nothing special but a solid carry job of a totally shit worker.

 

Vs. DDP Road Wild 99

 

Vs. El Samurai-Samurai understood his role in this match and worked well, but this was undoubtedly Benoit's match. He set's up the psychology of him wanting to prove that he is better than Liger and brings an awesome beating to Samurai, giving him opportunities get a role up which added to the excitement of a match. Michaels has faced stronger workers than El Samurai yet has never had a match as good as this.

 

Vs. A-Train No Mercy 03-underrated match that played well off their previous matches.

 

Vs. Kurt Angle Rumble 03-Angle was working against the psychology that Benoit was throwing at him so he had to extra hard to make the match good.

 

That's some anyway.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Vs. Buff Bagwell WCW 99?-not sure of the exact date, but this is far and away the best Bagwell match I've seen. Nothing special but a solid carry job of a totally shit worker.

That was late 99. They also had a match in 1993 when Benoit first came into WCW around the time of the Clash of Champions. Might've been actually before the Clash when you figure in WCWSN being taped.I alwlays liked Bagwell better back in the day as he had more fire and potential. This was better than the 1999 match.

 

 

I see some people like watching Michaels wrestle more than Benoit and that's cool. But the thing is once you watch wrestling over and over and over and over again certain type of matches will stick out as not becoming tired or old. THese matches will always retain charm. I always knew this but it really hit home for me after awhile. Benoit's matches fall into that category. I'd also put the matches of Bret Hart, Kawada, Steamboat, some of Austin, Hokuto, Aja Kong, Dynamite Kid, Jushin Lyger and Vader into this category. A lot of their stuff is rewatchable forever. Other wrestlers who are more spotty are more likely to have matches that are harder to get through after multiple viewings of the match or them. I'd bet good money that at least some of Michaels fans would eventually swith over to being bigger fans of Benoit's work if given enough wrestling to watch.

[Damaramu 0]

Well I just flat out enjoy watching a Benoit match than an HBK match. I get pissed off at the little things when watching a long HBK match whereas I enjoy just about every Benoit affair.

I can't believe there is even a question as to who is better when it's painfully obvious that Benoit is.

[Vyce 0]

Okay, I'm trying to figure how all of this fits, and I think I have it.

 

Benoit pins HBK for the title at Mania, thus allowing HHH to claim he isn't a legitimate champion.

 

Which sets up the rematch at Edmonton.....

 

.......and the inevitable "Montreal screwjob", giving HHH another historic 10 month title reign.

 

It all fits!!!

[Guest JMA]

Okay, I'm trying to figure how all of this fits, and I think I have it.

 

Benoit pins HBK for the title at Mania, thus allowing HHH to claim he isn't a legitimate champion.

 

Which sets up the rematch at Edmonton.....

 

.......and the inevitable "Montreal screwjob", giving HHH another historic 10 month title reign.

 

It all fits!!!

(cries)

[2GOLD 0]

Okay, I'm trying to figure how all of this fits, and I think I have it.

 

Benoit pins HBK for the title at Mania, thus allowing HHH to claim he isn't a legitimate champion.

 

Which sets up the rematch at Edmonton.....

 

.......and the inevitable "Montreal screwjob", giving HHH another historic 10 month title reign.

 

It all fits!!!

 

And I'll just say this much.

 

If they were to do this, again in Canada....Triple H may not have time to run out of the ring cause I think the people will jump the railing.

 

Not to mention, Hebner will NEVER be able to live it down then. Angle or not, I doubt the fans will take this from Vince again. Especially doing it to another Canadian Superstar only this time with Triple XXL

[humongous2002 0]

I liked Shawn before he became a christian and the back injury, even though he is comfortable on the mic ,HBK just doesn't have the heart to cut a fascinating promo like he used to back in 96-97. Right now he is just an overrated has-been that hasn't done anything to put anyone over besides himself or TripleFat.

And about Benoit getting over,all they got to do is to let him wrestle instead of making him cut a cheesy promo, if i want to be entertain by a promo i'll go watch the Rock do it, if i want to see good wrestling i'll go watch Benoit, not everybody should be judged by the same criteria. Every wrestler brings something different to the table,Benoit has his wrestling skills,Cena has his promo skills and Eddy has both,Jericho too and RVD has his aerial skills, point is that as long as the fans are entertained(either at home or at house shows)then that's good enough reason for them to get a shot at the world title.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I liked Shawn before he became a christian and the back injury, even though he is comfortable on the mic ,HBK just doesn't have the heart to cut a fascinating promo like he used to back in 96-97. Right now he is just an overrated has-been that hasn't done anything to put anyone over besides himself or TripleFat.

And about Benoit getting over,all they got to do is to let him wrestle instead of making him cut a cheesy promo, if i want to be entertain by a promo i'll go watch the Rock do it, if i want to see good wrestling i'll go watch Benoit, not everybody should be judged by the same criteria. Every wrestler brings something different to the table,Benoit has his wrestling skills,Cena has his promo skills and Eddy has both,Jericho too and RVD has his aerial skills, point is that as long as the fans are entertained(either at home or at house shows)then that's good enough reason for them to get a shot at the world title.

Hell, then he was all screwed up off Somas and painkillers. He was too stoned half the time to do ANY kind of interesting promos. He wasn't entertaining on the mic until the DX period. But before that, he was average at best on the mic.

[humongous2002 0]

I liked Shawn before he became a christian and the back injury, even though he is comfortable on the mic ,HBK just doesn't have the heart to cut a fascinating promo like he used to back in 96-97. Right now he is just an overrated has-been that hasn't done anything to put anyone over besides himself or TripleFat.

And about Benoit getting over,all they got to do is to let him wrestle instead of making him cut a cheesy promo, if i want to be entertain by a promo i'll go watch the Rock do it, if i want to see good wrestling i'll go watch Benoit, not everybody should be judged by the same criteria. Every wrestler brings something different to the table,Benoit has his wrestling skills,Cena has his promo skills and Eddy has both,Jericho too and RVD has his aerial skills, point is that as long as the fans are entertained(either at home or at house shows)then that's good enough reason for them to get a shot at the world title.

Hell, then he was all screwed up off Somas and painkillers. He was too stoned half the time to do ANY kind of interesting promos. He wasn't entertaining on the mic until the DX period. But before that, he was average at best on the mic.

IMO he was better off doing drugs because now all he tries to do is either preach or put me to sleep when he cuts a promo.

[Guest CubbyBear]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Oh and Benoit doesn't sell better? Well I've never known Benoit to get hit with a truckload of offense and then kip up and defeat his opponent with one shot. But HBK does that all the time.

And HBK brings more energy? Sure.....that's why I'm on the edge of my seat in every Benoit match and the only time I've been on the edge of my seat in an HBK match was at Survivor Series this past year. Yep....like I said.....Benoit is miles ahead of HBK in the ring and there's no way you're going to change that.

 

Like someone mentioned earlier, some stuff you said like a decent Benoit match is better than Shawn's best match is absolute horsecrap and just shows blind love for Benoit. And it really doesn't need a response.

 

As far as who brings more energy..again, it's a silly point to argue because when you look at the two it's obvious. Shawn completely outshines Benoit as far as charisma and energy. Just look at this past Raw and how energetic the crowd was for HBK and then look at the reaction for Benoit and you'll see the difference.

 

I'll admit that it's not a 100% set-in-stone fact like, say, that it is a fact that the Earth is flat. However, there is a lot of substance that states that Benoit is a much better wrestler than Shawn Michaels. When you look at a selection of HBK matches and break them down, they wouldn't compare to a selection of Benoit's. Michaels work was way too formulaic for my liking, as a face he works a very similar match every time he's out there and for the most part, doesn't adapt his formula to suit the psychology of a match.

 

I haven't watched a lot of Benoit's work lately but from what I've seen before he works a very similar match as well. I haven't seen him adapt to different opponents and wrestle different matches. I haven't seen any of his Japanese stuff but from what I have seen, for the past 6 years or so, he wrestles the same technical match each time out.

 

HBK has adapted to Mankind and worked a more agressive, brawling style. I've never seen Benoit go more of a brawling style the way we saw HBK at Mindgames against Mankind. Look at HIAC - he bumped around like a madman. It actually made you believe that the Undertaker was a raw monster the way he was manhandling Shawn. When I see Benoit working with a similar type of opponenet like, Big Show for example, you just don't see that. HBK has done the technical match as well against Bret Hart. He's done the high-flying style.

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread call Benoit perfect, and I know I don't consider him to be perfect (although no wrestler is, in my view, without their flaws; no matter how minor they may be;)). What makes Benoit a better wrestler is that he worked/works much better matches, is more consistent, much longer peak, more versatile (he's mastered the majority of wrestling styles on planet outside of King Road's style, shoot and probably a couple of others), he's a better carrier... I could go on, but I'll just summarise by saying that Benoit is better than Shawn in every category except maybe bumping (both were great at it), charisma (even though Michaels can't beat the depth of Benoit character or his intensity). That's really about it.

 

I already talked about the wrestling styles. Shawn is definitly more charasmatic as well as a better bumper proven in his matches with guys like Nash, Taker, Sid, etc. As far as being a better carrier...that's just ridiculous. In the mid 90's Shawn was pulling out great matches out of everyone. In Meltzer's words, he was even pulling good matches out of King Kong Bundy. As far as character- if you're comparing Shawn's character back in 97 there's no comparison...Benoit wasn't in Shawn's league. Right now, Benoit's actual ice-cold crippler character (Benoit doesn't help it any with his horrid mic work tho) is better because Shawn really has no character now. Shawn is still a lot more over though.

 

IF Shawn were to turn into the cocky heel again and start cutting promos like his first promo back with the nWo he'd once again be better.

[chaosrage 0]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Uh, right. I know everybody will jump all over ironman, but nothing Benoit has ever done can come close to touching Mind Games. But that's not really fair. He's never wrestled Mankind. So let's work with the same guys. Shawn/HHH from RAW easily beats out any match Benoit had with HHH. Shawn/Jericho from WM is about 1000 times better than any Benoit/Jericho match and there was about a million of them (unless you go back to Japan). Shawn/Bret (either one) is a lot better than benoit/bret. In fact, I can't think of a single time Benoit did better with the same opponent. At least Shawn/Bret is arguable. I don't see how anybody could even attempt to try to argue this.

[NoCalMike 0]

HBK's older stuff is underrated. His stuff from 5 years ago is about correctly rated, and his current work is overrated.