WWE Notes from the 2/23 Observer

[Enigma 0]

The booking for WrestleMania is starting to come together with a couple of strong RAW programs in recent weeks. The 2/16/04 show was strong in setting up fans wanting Mick Foley to have a partner since he continually is getting the beat-down from Evolution. At first I thought there could have been better usage of The Rock. Between Foley’s work in laying the program out and Randy Orton becoming a superstar in front of our eyes, this program seems to be gaining a lot of steam.

 

There are a lot of different theories on booking, and the Shawn Michaels pinning of Chris Benoit on RAW, after distraction from HHH, has been questioned. There is a general booking philosophy that if somebody is about to win a world title, you beat them once or twice before winning, to set up immediate challengers when they get the belt. However, that rule doesn’t always work out. If you have a weak challenger, and by weak, I mean someone who isn’t long-term established as a main eventer and championship caliber, that doesn’t work, because losses to top guys more emphasize that they aren’t at that level. Not that this was the turning point, but a big mistake in late 2001, was when they were going to have Chris Jericho be the surprise winner of the Undisputed WWF Title tournament, a few days before, Steve Austin pinned him clean with the Stunner in a TV match. Instead, what it did was establish that Jericho was the weak link in the four-man tournament. Even though Jericho beat Austin and Rock on the same night, and beat Rock and Austin second times on the following PPVs, a lot of people never saw him as a champion (how he was portrayed once winning didn’t help matters). With Eddie Guerrero, before winning the title, on SmackDown!, he pinned Brock Lesnar in a tag match. I thought that was necessary because I think a lot of fans really didn’t think of Guerrero as someone in the league with Lesnar, since he had never had a high profile title challenge, or even a PPV main event, and people had seen him on a national basis since 1995. By beating Lesnar (which probably should have been done a few weeks earlier and pushed every week after that point), it at least left people with the visual that he was in Lesnar’s league and it was a real title challenge. Of course, in the long run, that made no sense, because his pin was never referred to once on the PPV, while Tazz was put in the role of trying to say Guerrero had no chance to make it seem like a bigger upset when he won. The only problem was, they had already seen him win three days earlier. This comes from one set of people writing one story, and another set trying to have the announcers tell the opposite story.

 

With Benoit again, a challenger who has only had one singles PPV main event in his WWF/E career, and that was way back in 2000, he wasn’t in the position that, say HHH, would be in a few weeks before challenging for a title he was going to win. The loss certainly makes it expected Benoit will win the title at Mania (then again, Booker T. for a time was going to win the title from HHH at Mania last year and we saw how that ended up). If it is a Ladder Match, which hasn’t been announced, it leaves things open-ended, as he’ll climb a ladder, but not pin or make either guy quit. Really, just through traditional booking, the SmackDown! side has months worth of PPVs coming off this. Benoit can win at Mania, and then go into Edmonton as champion. Because it’s Canada, where it is very easy for Michaels to be a heel because the people naturally hate him anyway, Benoit vs. Michaels is easy to set up by Michaels’ win this past week. In Edmonton, the perfect finish is Benoit winning with the Sharpshooter. With Edge switching over to RAW, and Edge having to make an impact right away to get him up and running, he should beat HHH on the same show. That makes sense since HHH is a long-established headliner, who can still get a title shot as the former champion. Since we all know HHH is getting the belt back sooner than later, when that happens, he’s at least made Edge ready to theoretically headline, possibly at SummerSlam in Toronto.

 

A Japanese publication, but the rumor does make sense based on the angle where Bill Goldberg accidentally speared Austin, listed Austin as the referee in Goldberg vs. Lesnar.

 

CREDIT: Dave Meltzer & the Wrestling Observer Newsletter

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

The 2/16/04 show was strong in setting up fans wanting Mick Foley to have a partner since he continually is getting the beat-down from Evolution. At first I thought there could have been better usage of The Rock. Between Foley’s work in laying the program out and Randy Orton becoming a superstar in front of our eyes, this program seems to be gaining a lot of steam.

 

How are the fans wanting a partner for Mick? I mean to last few beatdowns of Foley the crowds have been DEAD for them. Mainly because it's between Orton, who isn't seen as a superstar of anykind and Foley, who's retired and broken down. Another factor is that Foley keeps looking dumb because he keeps walking into these traps.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Between Foley’s work in laying the program out and Randy Orton becoming a superstar in front of our eyes

I must need new eyes. Superstar???

[Ted the Poster 0]

Between Foley’s work in laying the program out and Randy Orton becoming a superstar in front of our eyes

I must need new eyes. Superstar???

Meltzer got into RVD's stash.

[Guest Loss]

Actually, in all honesty, I'd say that for the most part this board is the only place I know of that is not getting into this push, or at least acknowledging that he's doing just fine in the role he's in.

[Guest Choken One]

that's because we're jaded bitter fucks.

 

We're NEVER happy.

 

Eddy Guerrero wins the title...we bitch because it only had three weeks of hype.

 

We CAN NOT be statisfied. It's impossible.

[claydude14 0]

The Foley/Orton feud is the best on RAW right now.

[Guest Coffey]

I agree with what Choken One said.

 

I wanted to reply to talk about Tazz's commentary at No Way Out however. I kept thinking to myself "why is he saying that Brock getting a beatdown means that Eddie has less of a chance to win?" It didn't make sense. Instead of the Jackhammer hurting Brock's ribs so as to soften him up for Eddie's Frogsplash, it just pissed him off so that Guerrero had less of a chance to win?

 

Who thinks these things up? That's why I liked Jesse Ventura on Color Commentary so much. He played the heel role well...but he always spoke the truth. He might expand his thoughts a little bit and be biased...but he always had a good, solid point.

 

I just can't stand commentary nowadays. In every fed. It straight takes away from matches now.

[Guest Coffey]

The Foley/Orton feud is the best on RAW right now.

I disagree. I like both Jericho & Trish Vs. Christian better as well as The Undertaker Vs. Kane.

[Guest Choken One]

at least Tazz knew who Eddy Guerrero and Brock Lesnar were

 

JR: Bah Gawd, King King Bundy just Slamed Superfly Snuka!

[Guest Choken One]

The Foley/Orton feud is the best on RAW right now.

I disagree. I like both Jericho & Trish Vs. Christian better as well as The Undertaker Vs. Kane.

Foley is rehashing the SAME FUCKING ANGLE he did last time with even LESS over heel.

 

Foley, for a #1 best selling author isnt being creative with this angle...

 

 

Jericho is writing "Rawsen's Creek" angle and thats been very effective...Jericho clearly raided the TEEN MOVIE section at the local Blockbuster.

 

Benoit/HBK/HHH has actually been built nicely...

 

Whoops. *Turns in Smark Card*

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I can't understand this Orton thing.

 

Sure he's becoming a superstar. They're pushing him as a superstar...

 

But he's not becoming over or good...and I don't see why I should be on board with that.

[Guest Coffey]

I think Randy Orton would be over if he could get away from Evolution. He's somewhat in Triple H's shadow, and when he comes out with Ric Flair, you can't very well gauge what his reaction is.

 

He's definitely getting better in the ring though. I remember watching him on Velocity and I thought he was terrible. At least now he's passable.

 

He just needs time. Time that should be spent not mega-pushing him, but letting him grow into his own.

 

Of course, the same thing happened with Brock Lesnar and he's both good and over now.

[Guest Choken One]

Well...He came out by himself last raw and the crowd wasn't actively interesting in booing him.

 

Brock Lesnar had natural charisma...and presence...Orton's a generic Frat Boy.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Well...He came out by himself last raw and the crowd wasn't actively interesting in booing him.

 

Brock Lesnar had natural charisma...and presence...Orton's a generic Frat Boy.

See that's just it.

 

Brock Lesner went through growing pains with his push too...

 

but unlike Orton...Brock happened to be a World Class athlete with a unique look.

 

Orton is Val Venis with half the talent, and a quarter of the charisma.

[Guest Choken One]

and a 1/4th Undertaker with the tattoos...

[JoeDirt 0]

No one cared about Brock until he beat Rock...and Brocks' got natural charisma, size, and had a finisher that at the time made people say "whoa".

 

But don't worry, Randy Orton. If you keep shoving something down someone's throat, it'll get there attention eventually.

 

Man, that sounded really sick...

[notJames 0]

...But don't worry, Randy Orton. If you keep shoving something down someone's throat, it'll get there attention eventually...

That's somewhat true. Every time Orton's on the screen, my gag reflex acts up.

[Guest Choken One]

How much longer before they get desperate and "Lance Storm" Randy Orton...?

[Celtic Jobber 0]

I agree, this forum is the only place where I see anyone having a negative reaction to Orton's push. The man is over, and he comes across as a "Superstar".

 

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that he sucks.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

What exactly is it that some people deem as "over".

 

I sometimes think that way too many people equate "being pushed" with "Being over".

[Highland 0]

I think this board is just looking for reasons to never like Orton. We bitch about Eddy winning the belt, we bitch about Benoit being in the main event of the most hyped ppv in recent memory.

Prediction: Benoit will win the title, but we'll say it's a meaningless win because he won it in a 3-way and also it is not the "real" world title, just a cheap imitation, etc.

Prove me wrong.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Eddy Guerrero wins the title...we bitch because it only had three weeks of hype.

 

We CAN NOT be statisfied. It's impossible.

 

1. If you recall the thread, there was me and maybe 3 or 4 others who actually weren't satisfied with the feud. There were _considerably_ more people who were for it. "We" as reperesenting the majority, is not correct.

 

2. You make it sound like 3 weeks out of no where isn't something to be dissatisfied with.

 

So if you are talking about "we" as in "me", since I was the main detractor from the Eddie/Brock "feud", then the reference to Randy Orton does not hold water as I haven't been in the "anti-Orton" camp nor ever plan on being there.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Prediction: Benoit will win the title, but we'll say it's a meaningless win because he won it in a 3-way and also it is not the "real" world title, just a cheap imitation, etc.

Prove me wrong.

 

Ok, the majority of the people here (this "we") will be excited that Benoit has won the title despite all those things being true. You are looking at the minority and thinking it is larger than it is. Infact, the amount of ignorant posters who are just happy that Benoit is getting 'a' title is much larger than those who think he was better off on Smackdown.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I was 100% satisfied with Eddie's win.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Eddy Guerrero wins the title...we bitch because it only had three weeks of hype.

 

We CAN NOT be statisfied. It's impossible.

 

1. If you recall the thread, there was me and maybe 3 or 4 others who actually weren't satisfied with the feud. There were _considerably_ more people who were for it. "We" as reperesenting the majority, is not correct.

 

2. You make it sound like 3 weeks out of no where isn't something to be dissatisfied with.

 

So if you are talking about "we" as in "me", since I was the main detractor from the Eddie/Brock "feud", then the reference to Randy Orton does not hold water as I haven't been in the "anti-Orton" camp nor ever plan on being there.

To be fair, they really only had so much time to build around the Eddie/Chavo and Brock/Goldberg feuds.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yes, very few weren't.

 

There were also _a lot_ of people who were going nuts over Benoit winning the Rumble despite it leading to a feud with HHH and Michaels for the World Title.

 

Hell, I think *I* am the only one who wasn't happy with both.

 

I am actually kinda flattered that my opinion carries that much weight that I be mistakened for the entire board population.

 

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Whether he was booked weak early on or not, Jericho flopped as champion. When you're in there beating the likes of The Rock and Steve Austin and still cannot get over, something is up.

 

Jericho still wrestles like a cruiserweight in a heavyweights body, I never thought his style really worked in the main event scene of WWE, i.e. one where the most important trait you can own is the ability to brawl.

 

Triple H didn't kill Y2J's run, Jericho was dead as champion long before HHH was involved.

 

UYI

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

To be fair, they really only had so much time to build around the Eddie/Chavo and Brock/Goldberg feuds.

 

They had at least 6 months to bring Eddie up to a main event position. From August where he got huge heat (and I'd go so far as to say May), to January. They took that time and did very little with it and instead just hotshotted him up. To be fair, they had lots of time and boxed themselves into a corner after they misused so much of it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

To be fair, they really only had so much time to build around the Eddie/Chavo and Brock/Goldberg feuds.

 

They had at least 6 months to bring Eddie up to a main event position. From August where he got huge heat (and I'd go so far as to say May), to January. They took that time and did very little with it and instead just hotshotted him up. To be fair, they had lots of time and boxed themselves into a corner after they misused so much of it.

I'd say from July is when he had ME level heat, but remember, they were still running the Brock/Angle program. They hesitated on pulling the trigger, but I think it payed off in that he's more over now after beating Chavito.