scott keith's wmxx review

[Guest MikeSC]

This thread has too much talk about chops in it.

 

**1/2

Man, throwing them around like confetti, are ye?

 

Take away my contributions and you are, MAYBE, at 1/2*.

 

Can somebody dig up a pic of Destroyer---oops, I mean, um, can anybody think of American sacred cows? --- to knock it up a few notches.

-=Mike

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Well...there are puro fans in the thread...thus adding at least **

[chaosrage 0]

And I saw Kawada's name somewhere. So that brings it up to 5 stars.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I realise the last quotes are all in good fun but I do want to say if people are actually not puro fans or won't check it out because they're sick of puro fans "praising their product while dissing any other product" they're missing an awful lot. It's a completely new world out there which everyone should at least check out as there's just so much great stuff to cherish and it's mostly all done with more of a sportish feel. Give it a chance with an open mind and let it grow on you. Let the emotional bond with the wrestlers grow. Pick from a million great matches. I can't stress the following quote enough. You owe it to yourself.

[Dandy 0]

No replies to my analogy of finishes?

[Art Sandusky 0]

I've tried to get into Puro, I really have. I can't do it, same as I can't get into Indy stuff very much.

 

Either way, I have no problem giving the match *****. To me, ***** doesn't represent perfection, but the best execution that people are capable of, and the Wrestlemania main event was certainly the best that HHH, Michaels, and Benoit could have humanly done.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Ah, the diaper is about to get changed, I suppose."

 

Why did you shit your pants?

 

"And miss you piss and moan about it?"

 

Who's pissing and moaning? Your the one who's bitching and crying because somebody happened to not like a match as much as you. Instead of debating, you decided to be childish and lay out the boring, overplayed puro elitist name calling which got old years ago. This guy didn't say one damn thing about puro, until you guys started bringing it up.

 

"He who uses profanity has already lost the debate."

 

Fuck you, cock sucker. And since when have you tried to intelligently debate anything?

 

"IT'S SO UNFAIR! HOW DARE ANYBODY DISCUSS PURO IN LESS THAN GLOWING TERMS!"

 

I don't give a damn if you bash it, but brining it up in a folder for no reason is just getting things off topic. Why don't the fucking mods do there jobs, and police this place a little better?

 

"KAWADA IS MY GOD! I'M SERIOUS, HE'S MY GOD! I WORSHIP HIS SHRINE, THEN STIFF SOME GUY IN THE HEAD BEFORE DROPPING HIM ON HIS HEAD! BUT ONLY ON 11/7, BECAUSE IT'S THE ANNIVERSARY..."

 

What the fuck is 11/7, the anniversary of you getting dropped on your head as an infant?

 

"You never need a reason to bash puro because the joy of watching puro geeks flip the heck out is ALWAYS worth a chuckle."

 

Believe me, your ignorant ramblings has given me plenty of more good chuckles than I could ever give you.

 

"Now, just go off and blow your load off the latest Kojima match and leave us in peace."

 

I would but I've already dumped a huge load in your mom's mouth...and your dad's flabby ass.

 

"Dude sucked balls. I didn't make him be so blah in the ring. "

 

Your ability to analyze matches is outstanding.

 

"I accused you of being a puro geek, actually."

 

Insult?

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Well...there are puro fans in the thread...thus adding at least **

Your doing a knock out job, buddy. (thumbs up)

 

....no wander this place is a hell hole.

 

edit: I know your just joking around dude, but seriously, I know this folder has been having some problems, and it can easily come off like your encouraging this nonsense to continue. I would eventually like to dicuss WWE stuff here, but goofy posters like this makes it impossible.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Oh, and one last thing fucktards.

Ah, the diaper is about to get changed, I suppose.

If you don't want to discuss puro in the WWE folder than quit fucking bringing it up for no apparent reason.

And miss you piss and moan about it?

 

He who uses profanity has already lost the debate.

 

Thought you should know that.

This is the second thread I've seen it being brought up and bashed for no real reason.

IT'S SO UNFAIR! HOW DARE ANYBODY DISCUSS PURO IN LESS THAN GLOWING TERMS! KAWADA IS MY GOD! I'M SERIOUS, HE'S MY GOD! I WORSHIP HIS SHRINE, THEN STIFF SOME GUY IN THE HEAD BEFORE DROPPING HIM ON HIS HEAD! BUT ONLY ON 11/7, BECAUSE IT'S THE ANNIVERSARY...

 

You never need a reason to bash puro because the joy of watching puro geeks flip the heck out is ALWAYS worth a chuckle.

Seriously, what the hell does Misawa have to do with Wrestlemania?

Did anybody compare Misawa to WM? I must've missed that one.

"Don't you have some match dates to go look up or something?"

 

 

 

Oh my god, that's funny stuff man.

Wow, and I didn't even TRY! I RULE!

"Nobody is more annoying that a puro geek."

 

Not nearly as annoying as someone who can't type.

Correction: Nobody is more annoying than a puro geek ripping on an obvious typo. You proved me wrong there, skippy. Now, just go off and blow your load off the latest Kojima match and leave us in peace.

 

Danke.

"Yup, never seen Japanese wrestling. Never once.

 

I can say, though, that Jumbo Tsurta sucked some hardcore balls in the ring."

 

My how intelligent you are. (sarcasm)

Dude sucked balls. I didn't make him be so blah in the ring. He is the epitome of puro overrating. Heck, I can only imagine how much of a messiah Albert would be if he worked in AJPW.

And you accuse people of being biased.

I accused you of being a puro geek, actually.

He gave it **1/2, defended it, and made no mention of the great Misawa. Your the one who's bringing it up.

 

If you want to ask your bullshilt little questions take them to the puro folder.

Now what did he do to deserve THAT punishment? Couldn't he just slit his wrists while throwing some elbows (heck, let's make em LARIATS!) or something? It'd be less painful.

-=Mike

You've pulled some dandy's in the past but now I see once again that you've decided to one-up yourself in the Stupid Contest.

 

Bravo. You have no clue how embarassing that post was to read.

[Guest MikeSC]

"Ah, the diaper is about to get changed, I suppose."

 

Why did you shit your pants?

Ah, can't avoid the profanity, eh?

"And miss you piss and moan about it?"

 

Who's pissing and moaning?

Um, you. I thought I made it that perfectly clear.

Your the one who's bitching and crying because somebody happened to not like a match as much as you.

I haven't bitched or moaned once. I just enjoy watching YOU lose your marbles when somebody insults puro.

Instead of debating, you decided to be childish and lay out the boring, overplayed puro elitist name calling which got old years ago.

Believe me, we've ALL grown sick of puro elitists years ago, too. Doesn't make the title less appropriate for you.

This guy didn't say one damn thing about puro, until you guys started bringing it up.

AND THEN YOU SPOKE ILL OF IT. THAT'S UNFAIR! UNFAIR I TELL YOU! DANG YOU STRAIGHT TO HECK!

"He who uses profanity has already lost the debate."

 

Fuck you, cock sucker. And since when have you tried to intelligently debate anything?

Ah, homophobic AND a puro geek. I am shocked that the two can be combined in one person. Really, I am. See? This is me being SHOCKED!

"IT'S SO UNFAIR! HOW DARE ANYBODY DISCUSS PURO IN LESS THAN GLOWING TERMS!"

 

I don't give a damn if you bash it,

Oh, your responses tend to disprove that, don't they?

but brining it up in a folder for no reason is just getting things off topic.  Why don't the fucking mods do there jobs, and police this place a little better?

Do you read this folder in the hopes that somebody might insult puro so you can whine about it?

"KAWADA IS MY GOD! I'M SERIOUS, HE'S MY GOD! I WORSHIP HIS SHRINE, THEN STIFF SOME GUY IN THE HEAD BEFORE DROPPING HIM ON HIS HEAD! BUT ONLY ON 11/7, BECAUSE IT'S THE ANNIVERSARY..."

 

What the fuck is 11/7, the anniversary of you getting dropped on your head as an infant?

Ah, putting your issues upon others. It's a common practice for the socially maladjusted.

"You never need a reason to bash puro because the joy of watching puro geeks flip the heck out is ALWAYS worth a chuckle."

 

Believe me, your ignorant ramblings has given me plenty of more good chuckles than I could ever give you.

Oh, I doubt that.

"Now, just go off and blow your load off the latest Kojima match and leave us in peace."

 

I would but I've already dumped a huge load in your mom's mouth...and your dad's flabby ass. 

Good for you. Did your hand tell you "no" again?

"Dude sucked balls. I didn't make him be so blah in the ring. "

 

Your ability to analyze matches is outstanding.

And I didn't even TRY! WOW! I AM GOOD!

"I accused you of being a puro geek, actually."

 

Insult?

Truth can be insulting, I suppose.

 

I guess I could claim to have had oral sex with your mother and to have sodomized your father to put on equal footing --- but man, I doubt they want to touch each other. Why would anybody ELSE want to do it?

You've pulled some dandy's in the past but now I see once again that you've decided to one-up yourself in the Stupid Contest.

 

Bravo. You have no clue how embarassing that post was to read.

Great, I got myself a stalker. Joy. I have one guy fantasizing about anal sex with my father and oral sex with my mother and another who just follows me around endlessly.

 

Man, life can be difficult.

-=Mike

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Mike, keep in mind I am not flaming you here. Honestly, you are losing all your credibility here. If you have never seen something it's really bad to bash it, and I'm not just talking about wrestling. Quit fucking with CS, as I have had plenty of convo's with him and he does have a good mind for wrestling. The guy knows his stuff. If you wanna debate with him on the star ratings of a match, cool.....that's what makes TSM the shit. But otherwise, your making the place worse for everybody by doing what your doing........

[King Cucaracha 0]

Tawren...***** doesn't mean a match has to be perfect, so kindly think before you post next time. No match is PERFECT. Whever it be the slightest slip or a mildly boring part of a match, nothing is perfect.

 

Hell, by your logic no match can ever be ***** because the ROH three way was or because Flair/Steamboat was, or whatever else was five stars.

 

Michaels used poor chops? How so...let me guess...they weren't as good as Benoit's, so they were no good. It's slapping your hand on a guy's chest. It hardly constitutes to a match being bad now does it?

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Well...there are puro fans in the thread...thus adding at least **

Your doing a knock out job, buddy. (thumbs up)

 

....no wander this place is a hell hole.

 

edit: I know your just joking around dude, but seriously, I know this folder has been having some problems, and it can easily come off like your encouraging this nonsense to continue. I would eventually like to dicuss WWE stuff here, but goofy posters like this makes it impossible.

In theory it was more of a joke about the posters in this thread trying to rip on puro and the puro fans than on the puro posters themselves.

 

In theory...

[Coffin Surfer 0]

at Mike's post. Why do you guys keep him around, some sort of perverse curiosity? He's so cute when he's trying to act mature and intelligent.

 

"Tawren...***** doesn't mean a match has to be perfect, so kindly think before you post next time. No match is PERFECT. Whever it be the slightest slip or a mildly boring part of a match, nothing is perfect."

 

Correct, no match is perfect. The concept of a "worked wrestling match" is flawed by design, and no matter what, something can always be done better.

 

Hell, by your logic no match can ever be ***** because the ROH three way was or because Flair/Steamboat was, or whatever else was five stars."

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with "taking points" off a match, because it's simply not as good as another match. The star rating is suppose to be a quick reference to determine the difference in quality between matches, correct? If so, it makes perfect sense to place other matches higher on the scale, not because they have less flaws, but because one match is just plain better done.

 

Even if the three way has no flaws, it doesn't mean it's as good as say Flair/Steamboat. I haven't seen the match, so I can't really comment, this is just a hypothesis.

 

If you have a case where it's damn near impossible to decide which match is better, or a damn good argument could be made for placing one over the other. Than you then you have situation where you could give both mathces ***** because they are said to be equally good or on the same level. That's how I look at. Star ratings don't matter anyway, it's all about how analyze the match.

[AndrewTS 0]

Mike, keep in mind I am not flaming you here.  Honestly, you are losing all your credibility here.  If you have never seen something it's really bad to bash it, and I'm not just talking about wrestling.  Quit fucking with CS, as I have had plenty of convo's with him and he does have a good mind for wrestling.  The guy knows his stuff.  If you wanna debate with him on the star ratings of a match, cool.....that's what makes TSM the shit.  But otherwise, your making the place worse for everybody by doing what your doing........

I second that. CS has had a bit of a temper but Mike's been egging him on and having a bad attitude in the first place.

 

Why do you guys keep him around, some sort of perverse curiosity? He's so cute when he's trying to act mature and intelligent.

 

He's generally fine in the Current Events folder, but here...

[Guest Loss]

Everybody, please keep it above the belt. Argue the message, not the messenger. If you want to debate the merits of the match, fine. But stop with the personal attacks.

[Guest Brian]

I'm going to try an summarize the arguments for and against here since this has gotten so far off topic. Sorry if I missed anything.

 

Slapnuts said:

Well, let's see your arguments?

They didn't sell? I don't see how you can say that, they had to since they 1 guy had to be eliminated for each guy to have a segment with each other.

The blade jobs did make sense. Shawn hit head first into the steel post and did a fabulous mid air blade job. I think HHH got hit into the stairs, but I honestly don't remember at the moment.

Your criticizing an innovative and creative spot in HHH physically stopping HBK's hand from tapping. I don't even remember the last time someone verbally submitted in WWE, and you could say Benoit's arm was muffling Shawn's mouth in the crossface, so that wasn't an option.

The table spot wasn't contrived, it made sense. HBK was dealing with the devil. They both realised they could work together to elminate Benoit and fight amongst themselves, thats why they gave each other that look before suplexing him. It made it all the more dramatic when Benoit broke up the pedigree pinfall at the last second.

The sharpshooter was great, and dramatically built to. HHH struggling against having it put on just adds realism and made it all the better when Benoit put it on.

I don't see how you could be down on the announcing, JR and even King was ON. They put over everyone huge and gave the match a big match feel.

So there's your argument. I got to say anyone who thinks it was less than **** is just jaded and looking for things to complain about.

 

Brian said:

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

bravesfan said:

Everyone sold perfectly? Nope. HBK had his traditional no-selling fun,

That's definitely an objective opinion. Let's rely on past performances by Michaels to judge this match, since you are UNBIASED and OBJECTIVE, right?

There were some pretty cool spots, but they were contrived as hell. The double suplex through the table was so contrived...why didn't HHH do it himself?

It was a stiff suplex, which in its velocity could be only be performed by two men. Michaels and Helmsley literally THREW Benoit into the table, which put him out of commission in the fans' eyes.

Why was HHH hurt more, as HBK bounded into the ring to point at HHH?

HHH was brawling with Benoit for the time being, while Michaels was recovering from the post shot/bladejob which happened a few minutes earlier. HBK had the most "wind" in him at that point, even though it was evident he hurt the most (he was quickly put out of commission AGAIN by HHH's pedigree and Benoit's suplex.)

When Benoit had HBK in the crossface and HBK went to tap out but HHH grabbed his arm, why didn't HBK submit verbally?

The fans are trained to see a clean decision by a three count or tap-out submission: the crowd would've farted on "I Quit" being the finish.

 

bravesfan said:

But they both just did the same move and HBK already had gone blade crazy (I don't remember if HHH was bleeding yet, but HBK had the bigger job), so you'd assume they are close enough to the same.

 

1. HHH was hurting.

 

2. HHH couldn't do what he had PLANNED to do because of his ribs and back.

 

3. HBK joined in, on the grounds that he sees an opportunity to put one of his foes out of commission for the time being with little to no consequence, unlike a moonsault or spot onto a table.

 

Where's the "logic gap" in HBK being in better shape at that point?

 

Brian said:

Like I said, HBK had always seen Benoit as the obstacle, not as his opponent. That's why he jumped at the opportunity, even if it means working with his nemesis.

 

Brian said:

Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been the same match had Benoit not gone over. The story of the match, Benoit overcoming and woorking hard, Ahawn stealing what Benoit had earned, taking it from the champ; wouldn't have worked. There's no doubt the way they put the feud together, he had to win. And the match followed that.

 

treble charged said:

There's nothing wrong with liking a match more based on who goes over. I mean, in game 7 of the ALCS was a great game, but do you think many Red Sox fans are going to like it as much as Yankee fans did? The outcome will affect your enjoyment.

 

wildpegasus said:

Exactly. Benoit winning fit the story of the match so his winning does make it a better match. It was designed for the fans to cheer for Benoit to win. (Not they needed any help but the match still helped them along so it did its job) If HHH were to win at the end of the bout the match wouldn't have been as good and would have gotten a lower star rating because that just "wouldn't have made sense". Benoit's victory was the climax to the story that had been building before the match and during the match. Plump any other ending to that match and you don't get the climax Benoit's victory got. Probably the best triple threat overall I've seen.

 

wildpegasus said:

liked the table spot as it had a twofold effect here that the other incapicate the 3rd man spots really didn't. It did what it was meant to do which was incapacitate Benoit in a big way. The crowd obviously bought that and JR helped drive the point home of Benoit being in trouble to the viewers watching the show via PPV. This let Michaels and HHH have an opportunity to finally settle their "10 year" feud and for the fans to get behind Benoit as he mangages to crawl back from near death to continue his 18 year long dream.

 

I liked the HHH blocking of HBK's hand to stop him from tapping. Now before anyone says, "Why didn't he verbally give up?", remember Benoit had his mouth covered. Plus Michaels actually didn't go down for the first part of the tap. So we'll never really know but it still was a nice spot.

 

Like I also said before, Benoit's eliminating of Michaels before the final battle against HHH was symbolic. It was Benoit eliminating the guy who wasn't "sussposed" to be there and finally getting his initial Wrestlemania opponent 1on 1. Benoit clearly eliminated Michaels Royal Rumble style. The only other guy who lasted from #1 all the ways to the end was Michaels. Kind of like a passing of the torch here.

 

There was a good amount of struggle here that's not really present in most WWE matches. For example, Benoit and HHH were really struggling for a while before the superplex took place. There was struggle for the sharpshooters and crossfaces. A nice touch that makes Benoit struggle for the heavyweight belt more meaningful.

 

The story here was strong in the sense that you don't really get stories that are more meanigful than Benoit's lifelong quest for the title. It naturally makes everything done in the match have a stronger life essence. HHH's "invinciability" also works well here because it causes people's hearts to sink down more into their stomach whenever he does something. When he pedigrees someone people get scared. Combine that with Benoit's past of choking and it makes the end all the more dramatic when he's ready to get pedigreed at the end of the bout. That sucks people into the match and makes it more emotional. Benoit/HHH had that advantage here and they used it.

 

I was mostly happy with the performance of Michaels. His moonsault from the top turnbuckle to the outside of the ring on top of HHH and Benoit told everyone this IS Wrestlemania because that's something he doesn't do every day.

 

The match built well. The excitement of it went up and up until it hit a nice climax.

 

The superkick to end all superkicks on Benoit while he had the sharpshooter on Michaels was pretty crazy. Now stiffness doesn't equal a better match but Benoit did pick a good time here to devour a superkick as that would only get the fans even more behind him since it just stuck out so well. It put him over as just that much tougher when he kicked out.

 

The only thing I didn't really like here was that some of the hits that took one guy out were a little weak at the beginning of the match. There were also a few things I wanted to see here but that's just me fantasy wrestling.

 

Imark4chrisdaniels said:

I would say that the three-way match was *****. I can not find a thing wrong with the match and I was caught up in it emotionally. Now if there were a bunch of blown spots or a HHH/Steiner or Goldberg/Brock type match going on before the finish, I wouldn't give it more than **. Likewise, if the match went as it did but HHH hit the Pedigree on Benoit at the end and pinned him, I wouldn't give it more than ****. There were many different times after the table spot that the match could have conceivably ended. The Pedigree on HBK that was broken up by Benoit, the Superkick on Benoit during the Sharpshooter, HHH going for the Pedigree on Benoit, Benoit's reversal to the Crossface, HHH trying to reverse that to a cradle, Benoit rolling through that and keeping the Crossface locked on at the same time putting HHH too far away from the ropes to end the match. That gets people caught up in the match, but the match as a whole built toward that ending.

 

For an analogy of how important an ending is, consider the movie Se7en. Say the movie went as it was up until the desert scene and the van is coming down. Somerset (Morgan Freeman) runs over and gets the box from the delivery guy. He looks into the box and says, "What the fuck?" Mills (Brad Pitt) asks John Doe (Kevin Spacey) what's in the box. Doe: "Well, yesterday I killed my neighbor and his plumber. That's what's in the box." The take him back to headquarters, he signed his confession and was sentenced to life without parole.

 

Now would you think that Se7en would have been as good a movie with an ending that wouldn't have been as badass or make as much sense? Please respond.

 

Brian said

I'm watching the match again, and I'm loving just the start of this thing. The ref patting these guys down. Then Shawn going right after Trips, and the Benoit pulling them off and he's all like"This is my fucking fight", and they're both going at it, and from that moment you know they both want to just kill each other and settle this thing one-on-one with Trips. Because that's what the world title is all about.

 

Imarkout4chrisdaniels said:

Someone brought up Michaels' mid-air bladejob and someone else talked about him bleeding just a little at first and a lot later and how they hated that. Rewatch the match and watch closely before the slingshot. HBK and HHH are both on the outside and when Michaels rolls back into the ring, he is taking the blade out of his wrist tape. He has it in, IIRC, his left hand as he chops HHH in the corner. He actually blades as he is on his back as HHH is preparing the slingshot move. HBK is actually starting to bleed before he hits the post, but it is not noticeable at all. He did an excellent blade job in my opinion, if it was not noticeable until looking for it on the replay, as when I watched it live I thought he must have been legit busted open because he didn't seem to blade after hitting the post. Great job by Michaels to mask it so well.

 

As for the bleeding more as the match went on, how does that not make sense? Of course he is not going to have a crimson mask upon impact! He had a cut on his forehead which bled continuously over a period of about 15-20 minutes as he was running around, taking shots to the head, and keeping his blood circualting. It should look like he severed an artery right away. That would be neither believable or safe.

 

TheMikeSC said:

The faults I got from you were that Shawn chopped too much (it's no different than lots of punching, lots of elbows, lots of kicks, or what have you --- it's simply transition stuff. Japanese wrestlers love elbows and the like, Americans love chops) and that his chops suck --- which I don't see at all. You said he was sloppy, but I didn't see THAT either. Heck, his selling was considerably better than normal and his kip-up wasn't "illogical" (no real back work done to him, nor much work on his legs). He did his usual top-notch bladejob and was willing to make both HHH AND Benoit look good while beating the ever loving crap out of him.

 

This was a spectacular match. All 3 men sold like heck and hit their spots perfectly. I can't name a blown spot. Heck, the closest thing I could name to a problem was HHH visibly trying to force blood out of his cut while sitting on the mat (when he was "breathing hard", he was just trying to strain the muscles in his face to force out blood).

 

I'm not seeing these flaws you claim are there. I, honestly, think that there is an inherent bias against Michaels work due to his past rep for spotty selling and, well, being a dick. Not saying you're a Shawn-hater --- but that you are not going to be all that giving of praise for when Shawn actually DOES logical selling and work.

 

In THIS match, I don't see anything he did wrong. Other matches, arguably so --- but not in this particular match. Heck, people say his superkicks miss by too much, but the on Benoit looked stiff as could be. And Benoit was spot-on. Even Hunter did everything well. He fought the submission for as long as he possibly could, but he eventually had to tap.

-=Mike

[Guest Brian]

Tawren said:

It was disjointed, featured shitty selling by HBK and HHH, bladejobs by HHH and HBK when neither had been hit in the face, little to no build to the finish, told no story, and (while not very important) had horrible commentary.

 

Everyone sold perfectly? Nope. HBK had his traditional no-selling fun, jumping all over after being hit with big moves, there were chops galore by HBK and Benoit in place of actual transitions, and of course, HHH and HBK were bleeding like hell, which was impressive but for no reason, as neither was hit in the head.

 

There were some pretty cool spots, but they were contrived as hell. The double suplex through the table was so contrived...why didn't HHH do it himself? Why was HHH hurt more, as HBK bounded into the ring to point at HHH? When Benoit had HBK in the crossface and HBK went to tap out but HHH grabbed his arm, why didn't HBK submit verbally? He wanted to, obviously. The superkick out of the sharpshooter was poorly done and took too long to set up.

 

**1/2

 

Tawren said:

Selling was bad on all three's parts, but there was no real work on any body part so I won't go in depth on it for specific cases. I really don't like the style of "german suplex, HBK is down, Benoit vs HHH, HBK's back just in time and is conveniently perfectly fine now".

 

Camera never showed HBK hit the post, I was just under the impression he went chest into turnbuckle. Still, it was a small cut at first then dramatically bigger later, which I hate, plus I maintain he never was hit hard enough to bleed. Pretty much same with HHH.

 

Table spot was horribly contrived. Lets both get rid of the monitors...now stand there...wait, back on knees...ok HBK is here...ope, gotta set it up...come on man, hurry up...OK here we go...OK...suplex through the table. Con-trived.

 

I'm not jaded...I'm not biased...I'm objective. I hated it.

 

Tawren said:

Everyone sold perfectly? Nope. HBK had his traditional no-selling fun,

That's definitely an objective opinion. Let's rely on past performances by Michaels to judge this match, since you are UNBIASED and OBJECTIVE, right?

I was unbiased and objective. Note how I didn't say Benoit was his usual godly self, because he wasn't? Yep. Did you even see the match? HBK sells like a pile of crap.

 

There were some pretty cool spots, but they were contrived as hell. The double suplex through the table was so contrived...why didn't HHH do it himself?

It was a stiff suplex, which in its velocity could be only be performed by two men. Michaels and Helmsley literally THREW Benoit into the table, which put him out of commission in the fans' eyes.

 

I've already covered how long it took to set up and etc.

 

Why was HHH hurt more, as HBK bounded into the ring to point at HHH?

HHH was brawling with Benoit for the time being, while Michaels was recovering from the post shot/bladejob which happened a few minutes earlier. HBK had the most "wind" in him at that point, even though it was evident he hurt the most (he was quickly put out of commission AGAIN by HHH's pedigree and Benoit's suplex.)

 

But they both just did the same move and HBK already had gone blade crazy (I don't remember if HHH was bleeding yet, but HBK had the bigger job), so you'd assume they are close enough to the same.

 

When Benoit had HBK in the crossface and HBK went to tap out but HHH grabbed his arm, why didn't HBK submit verbally?

The fans are trained to see a clean decision by a three count or tap-out submission: the crowd would've farted on "I Quit" being the finish.

 

**1/2

Tawren's a dumbass.

 

Not really.

 

Tawren said:

Could someone explain how the chops replaced transitions in the match?

HBK chops chops chops his way to a sloppy performance.

 

Bionick Redneck said:

If Benoit had lost, nobody would be pimping it. Fact.

 

Bionic Redneck said:

and the fans were into it

 

I disagree. There was a frightening lack of heat for some of the Michaels-HHH exchanges.

 

Michrome said:

Nobody would rate that match any higher if CM Punk was in it. I don't think you could honestly watch the ROH 3-way from 2/23/02, and then watch this one, and tell me the work was better in this one with a straight face.

 

Tawren said:

MY problem with the chops was how over-used they were, especially by Micheals: he sucks at them.

[Guest MikeSC]

Mike, keep in mind I am not flaming you here.  Honestly, you are losing all your credibility here.  If you have never seen something it's really bad to bash it, and I'm not just talking about wrestling.  Quit fucking with CS, as I have had plenty of convo's with him and he does have a good mind for wrestling.  The guy knows his stuff.  If you wanna debate with him on the star ratings of a match, cool.....that's what makes TSM the shit.  But otherwise, your making the place worse for everybody by doing what your doing........

Let's go in order here:

 

1) I've seen MORE than my fair share of puro (I've been liquidating my tape collection and my collection of Japanese wrestling is nothing to sneeze at) and I can say, based on my experience, that Japanese wrestling is laden with bad selling that even Michaels would mock and head drops. It has the whole vibe of being different that make people take it for more than it was. If people attached the same standards to ANY of a LARGE number of Japanese heavyweight (AJPW and NJPW up to 2000 --- I lost all patience with the crap with the rather tepid Kawada v Sasaki matches) that they attach to American wrestling, they'd DUMP on the product big-time.

 

I mock Japanese wrestling because, darn it, it DESERVES it. It deserves it as much as American wrestling does --- but the elitist geeks out there (and don't even TRY and claim that they don't exist) handle even MILD criticism as if you were busily raping their dog. So, why even try NUANCED criticism (i.e Jumbo matches were slow, tedious, not all that well worked, and laden with crap selling) when it'll get the same reaction as claiming that somebody jerks off to puro matches?

 

Puro elitists are every inch as blinded and annoying as ECW freaks were back when some bought into the hype that ECW had great wrestling or that RVD v Lynn was anything more than a mildly above average series of matches. You CAN'T discuss things with them and trying to do so is a waste of time.

2) I could care less about CS's "mind" for pro wrestling. He acted like a jackass and, thus, I treated him as such. I now apologize for it as it is just a colossal waste of time to mock him. I never insinuated that I nailed his mother OR father --- but apparently I am the bad guy in all of this. Groovy.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

  at Mike's post. Why do you guys keep him around, some sort of perverse curiosity?  He's so cute when he's trying to act mature and intelligent.

OK, take a deep breath:

 

THIS IS PRO WRESTLING.

 

At its BEST, it is bloody idiotic. Enjoyable, but moronic.

 

But, since ONE of us has to be mature, I'll apologize for my comments.

-=Mike

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I've seen MORE than my fair share of puro (I've been liquidating my tape collection and my collection of Japanese wrestling is nothing to sneeze at) and I can say, based on my experience, that Japanese wrestling is laden with bad selling that even Michaels would mock and head drops. "

 

It depends on what matches your talking about, your generalizing the entire country which is loaded with multiple promotions, and multiple styles. Bad selling and head drops sounds like NOAH and alot of the later All Japan stuff, if so, than I would agree.

 

"If people attached the same standards to ANY of a LARGE number of Japanese heavyweight (AJPW and NJPW up to 2000 --- I lost all patience with the crap with the rather tepid Kawada v Sasaki matches) that they attach to American wrestling, they'd DUMP on the product big-time."

 

What you fail to realize is that alot of people(including me) do rightfully dump on the current product and the bad matches that have been crapped out over the years.

 

"I mock Japanese wrestling because, darn it, it DESERVES it. It deserves it as much as American wrestling does"

 

Yes, alot of it does.

 

" --- but the elitist geeks out there (and don't even TRY and claim that they don't exist) "

 

Yes, they do exist.

 

"Jumbo matches were slow, tedious, not all that well worked, and laden with crap selling"

 

Can you give a specific example, or are you just gonna continue to be vague and mysterious.

 

"Puro elitists are every inch as blinded and annoying as ECW freaks were back when some bought into the hype that ECW had great wrestling or that RVD v Lynn was anything more than a mildly above average series of matches. You CAN'T discuss things with them and trying to do so is a waste of time."

 

Lotta generalizing and stereotyping going on.

 

"I never insinuated that I nailed his mother OR father --- but apparently I am the bad guy in all of this. Groovy"

 

How stupid do you really thing people are? Most everybody here is smart enough to see that you and that snuxboxwhatever guy were flame baiting and acting like idiots. The mother and father comment was spawned by you insinuating that I jack off to male wrestling matches, but you know...your totally innocent and everything. At least I'll admit that I'm a trouble maker.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

::Realizes WM has been over for several days, but the thread never dies::

 

 

Why is everyone still arguing? A new match to argue over happend with Rey/Eddie Guerrero that SK gave ****1/4.

[Guest MikeSC]

"I've seen MORE than my fair share of puro (I've been liquidating my tape collection and my collection of Japanese wrestling is nothing to sneeze at) and I can say, based on my experience, that Japanese wrestling is laden with bad selling that even Michaels would mock and head drops. "

 

It depends on what matches your talking about, your generalizing the entire country which is loaded with multiple promotions, and multiple styles.  Bad selling and head drops sounds like NOAH and alot of the later All Japan stuff, if so, than I would agree. 

AJPW stuff from about 1985-on. NJPW stuff from about 1983-on. I do like the Light Heavyweight stuff (Skydiving J is a guilty pleasure), but the heavyweight stuff and AJPW tag team stuff (including Gordy & Williams v Hansen & Spivey et al) just didn't click for me whatsoever.

"Jumbo matches were slow, tedious, not all that well worked, and laden with crap selling"

 

Can you give a specific example, or are you just gonna continue to be vague and mysterious. 

Just off the top of my head --- BOTH of his matches with Ric Flair. Now, I love Flair's work --- and I had a hard time maintaining interest in EITHER of them. The selling was spotty (it has goten exponentially worse over time) and the match just dragged. I have NEVER seen the "greatness" of Jumbo. He is a piddling worker, at best, in my eyes.

"Puro elitists are every inch as blinded and annoying as ECW freaks were back when some bought into the hype that ECW had great wrestling or that RVD v Lynn was anything more than a mildly above average series of matches. You CAN'T discuss things with them and trying to do so is a waste of time."

 

Lotta generalizing and stereotyping going on. 

And it fits. Are you going to attempt to claim that there is not a SIGNIFICAN percentage of puro geeks who are as blinded to the product as ECW fans were when you mentioned that an ECW PPV was, at best, OK?

"I never insinuated that I nailed his mother OR father --- but apparently I am the bad guy in all of this. Groovy"

 

How stupid do you really thing people are?  Most everybody here is smart enough to see that you and that snuxboxwhatever guy were flame baiting and acting like idiots.  The mother and father comment was spawned by you insinuating that I jack off to male wrestling matches, but you know...your totally innocent and everything. At least I'll admit that I'm a trouble maker.

You jumped over a line. I did not do the same to you.

 

And I apologized for my comments.

 

You have yet to do so.

-=Mike

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"AJPW stuff from about 1985-on. NJPW stuff from about 1983-on. I do like the Light Heavyweight stuff (Skydiving J is a guilty pleasure), but the heavyweight stuff and AJPW tag team stuff (including Gordy & Williams v Hansen & Spivey et al) just didn't click for me whatsoever."

 

I like the Heavies more than the juniors. Never saw Gordy/Williams vs. Hansen/Spivey so I can't comment.

 

"Just off the top of my head --- BOTH of his matches with Ric Flair. Now, I love Flair's work --- and I had a hard time maintaining interest in EITHER of them. The selling was spotty (it has goten exponentially worse over time) and the match just dragged. I have NEVER seen the "greatness" of Jumbo. He is a piddling worker, at best, in my eyes."

 

I need to see the Jumbo/Flair matches, but I've heard there not that good so I've stayed clear of them. Jumbo is one of the best sellers I've ever seen, especially at 10/91 against Kawada. He puts over a headlock throughout the entire duration of the match. Than he can turn around and have an uber fast sprint with a young Kobashi the same year. Than you have his mat classics with Robinson, his brawls with Race, and the epic storytelling of his match with Funk. One of the most accomlipshed, well rounded wrestlers I've ever had the pleasure of watching.

 

"And it fits. Are you going to attempt to claim that there is not a SIGNIFICAN percentage of puro geeks who are as blinded to the product as ECW fans were when you mentioned that an ECW PPV was, at best, OK?"

 

Stereotyping is never a good thing, because there is always exceptions.

 

"And I apologized for my comments.

 

You have yet to do so.

-=Mike"

 

And I won't, nor do I accept yours, because I believe it not to be sincere. So that's that.

[Guest MikeSC]

"AJPW stuff from about 1985-on. NJPW stuff from about 1983-on. I do like the Light Heavyweight stuff (Skydiving J is a guilty pleasure), but the heavyweight stuff and AJPW tag team stuff (including Gordy & Williams v Hansen & Spivey et al) just didn't click for me whatsoever."

 

I like the Heavies more than the juniors. Never saw Gordy/Williams vs. Hansen/Spivey so I can't comment.

 

"Just off the top of my head --- BOTH of his matches with Ric Flair. Now, I love Flair's work --- and I had a hard time maintaining interest in EITHER of them. The selling was spotty (it has goten exponentially worse over time) and the match just dragged. I have NEVER seen the "greatness" of Jumbo. He is a piddling worker, at best, in my eyes."

 

I need to see the Jumbo/Flair matches, but I've heard there not that good so I've stayed clear of them. Jumbo is one of the best sellers I've ever seen, especially at 10/91 against Kawada. He puts over a headlock throughout the entire duration of the match. Than he can turn around and have an uber fast sprint with a young Kobashi the same year. Than you have his mat classics with Robinson, his brawls with Race, and the epic storytelling of his match with Funk. One of the most accomlipshed, well rounded wrestlers I've ever had the pleasure of watching.

 

"And it fits. Are you going to attempt to claim that there is not a SIGNIFICAN percentage of puro geeks who are as blinded to the product as ECW fans were when you mentioned that an ECW PPV was, at best, OK?"

 

Stereotyping is never a good thing, because there is always exceptions.

 

"And I apologized for my comments.

 

You have yet to do so.

-=Mike"

 

And I won't, nor do I accept yours, because I believe it not to be sincere. So that's that.

Then don't complain about anybody being a dick or flame baiting.

-=Mike

[cawthon777 0]

Who the fuck cares what Scott Keith has to say? Honestly.

[Guest MikeSC]

Who the fuck cares what Scott Keith has to say? Honestly.

I've made that point before. If he is such a blithering idiot --- why the heck dedicate posts about it? There are plenty of hacks out there who also write such stuff.

-=Mike

...It's be like me doing a political thread on how much of a moron Eric S. is

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Who the fuck cares what Scott Keith has to say?  Honestly.

I've made that point before. If he is such a blithering idiot --- why the heck dedicate posts about it? There are plenty of hacks out there who also write such stuff.

-=Mike

...It's be like me doing a political thread on how much of a moron Eric S. is

Whose Eric S.?

 

I liked the match, but I couldn't honestly give it *****, not that I rate on star ratings. I'm not a critic. So forget the rating, there are just varying degrees of enjoyment. This wasn't nearly as deep or enjoyable as Benoit's best stuff, or our other Canadian wrestling hero's work in the WWF, Bret Hart. His matches at WM8 and 13 rock this one. Not to mention 10. So yeah, this isn't my favourite match or even close, so I don't know why others would rate it *****. But to each their own. The other problem is that there's no epic feel in the WWF anymore with title wins, like someone pointed out in another thread. Probably because 16 PPVs or whatever a year is way too much, but that's another topic.

[AndrewTS 0]

"Whose Eric S.?"

 

A writer for 411 who spends most of his columns discussing politics. He's very, very, very far left.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

Not a bad review by Scott Keith all. He's pretty on the mark with everything.

 

And he's right - Evil Trish is hot.