USA POW Beheaded

[Guest Kevin Malton]

Took me ages to read through all that! How's this for crackpot stuff http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000233.html

 

Tracking down these pigs should be a main priority.

[muzz 0]

We also have those same chairs outside.

 

And any link that shows Pfc. England should have a warning posted.

[Guest Cerebus]

I do want to address one thing, these guys spoke excellent Arabic. At most, it sounds like someone with few speaking skills reading from a paper, which it is, which is why it sounds stiff. This was spoken with someone with either extremely high skill in Arabic or a native speaker.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

JOTW, you seem to act as if you think they haven't decapitated prisoners before. This isn't a new thing.

 

At a point, the "violence only begets more violence" rationale has to go bye-bye. Were we wrong to attack Japan after they attacked us? Heck, what reason did we have to attack Germany, since they never physically attacked us first?

 

We did it because it HAD to be done.

Germany and Japan were solid targets. Random people who hate America are not.

 

Will killing make them like us? Will it somehow cause them to hate us more than they already do? While not attacking them is just as useless towards swaying their opinion, what are the strong risks of creating a strong wave of America hate from more people that previously didn't hate us?

 

And no, large events like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor aren't sacred ground from politics as long as you focus on the event as a whole and not on any particular person's death (i.e. someone jumping out of a window)

 

 

Also, I would appreciate a warning before posting links to white lawn chairs.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Will killing make them like us? Will it somehow cause them to hate us more than they already do? While not attacking them is just as useless towards swaying their opinion, what are the strong risks of creating a strong wave of America hate from more people that previously didn't hate us?

 

No, of course not. But it will beat them down so that they cannot act on that hatred. They already hate us. Nothing you do will make them hate us less or more. As for creating more American hate? From whom? These terrorists already hate Western Civilization, including Europe. Pretty much the entire region does, except Israel. Japan, China & India are already hated by them as well. Nothing that anybody does is ever going to change that region, at least easily. I haven't given up hope, but at least it can't get worse. That means the new hatred must come from the other civilized nations. Say what you will about France & Germany, but they have a sense of morality and will not go to war with the US just because they are angry with them. There may be economic setbacks, but you won't see French militants blowing up American landmarks.

 

That said I am completely against this proposed genocide. Strategically it makes sense, but my concience won't allow me to agree with it at all. It doesn't have to come to that, by any stretch of the imagination. You have 700+ dead in over a year. That is not nearly a high enough rate to indicate this is a major problem. We didn't have to resort to that in WW2 when we had far greater problems than we do now with Allied casualties in the millions. There is no need for it now.

[Guest SideFXs]

Will killing make them like us? Will it somehow cause them to hate us more than they already do? While not attacking them is just as useless towards swaying their opinion, what are the strong risks of creating a strong wave of America hate from more people that previously didn't hate us?

 

.

The Arab world wants to destroy the U.S., first economically, then they will attack us, in our own country.

 

You just wait. If we don't offer solutions now, like establishing a democracy, in the center of the Middle East; where most people can prosper and feel safe from tyranny, then hatred and violence against a scape-goat will continue (terrorism).

 

But if you want a real solution, we need to eliminate our dependence on "Oil"

 

Cold Fusion, which will work, is a solution to free and clean energy. Its just that, leading scientists, such as, Eugene Mallove , get murdered only weeks, before they are to speak on Capital Hill, about a working device.

 

So, somehow we need to get out of this dependence on oil, then we won't have young men getting their heads cut off by maniacs. President Bush has the right idea, promoting democracy to stablize the region, but , frankly I don't think there is much hope against the insanity, over there. And over here too with the media continually harping on the fucking pictures!

[Jobber of the Week 0]

But if you want a real solution, we need to eliminate our dependence on "Oil"

You mean reduce. Grouse about SUVs all you want, but oil has other uses other than taking your car to Wal-Mart, and it's doubtful we'll find alternatives for all of them.

[Firestarter 0]

leading scientists, such as,  Eugene Mallove

'k, that got a chuckle out of me... oh wait, were you serious?

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

So, somehow we need to get out of this dependence on oil, then we won't have young men getting their heads cut off by maniacs. President Bush has the right idea, promoting democracy to stablize the region, but , frankly I don't think there is much hope against the insanity, over there. And over here too with the media continually harping on the fucking pictures!

 

It will work, as long as you have the patience to see it out. You are dealing with a region that has never had democracy (unlike the situation with Japan & Germany in 1945). It will take a long time and be difficult, by I firmly believe that it can be done. The current path is the correct one. Not ignoring the problem, and not eradicating the whole population.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

But if you want a real solution, we need to eliminate our dependence on "Oil"

 

wait.. we're not dependant on Oil, but on "Oil"?

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Actually one way to really decrease the dependency on foreign oil would to raise the fuel standards on every car by a miniscule amount, something like 3 gallons, or something like that. Of course, many Car companies and oil companies hate that idea of course. But I do like hearing stories that the hybrids are selling well. Heck, my next car will be a hybrid, if anything to save on gas money and practice what I preach, but I am still happy with my little Civic Honda, which gets pretty good gas mileage to begin with. Unfortunately, the Honda cars, if properly cared for, last a very long time, and my plans to become a teacher, might mean I am driving this car for a very long time.

 

And back to the topic. Yeah, it is pretty obvious that the most of the Arab world hates our guts. That should come as no suprise. And I know that the war on terror will take a long time to complete, and so I will never criticize that this taking a long time or anything like that. But when images of the prisoners being abused, which I will agree was not as bad as what Saddam did to his prisoners, and other tyrants in the area have committed, it still does not help our situation. The last thing we need is this being used as a recruiting tool for terrorists groups. And when the main news source of the Arab world skewers the actions of a few morons, into this is what the US is doing to every prisoner, well you are going to have problems. And it also add unecessary longevity to this situation. I am not shedding any tears over Saddam's departure. Heck, I am sure no one is. But unfortunately it was something that came maybe 14 years too late, but that is hindsight. But it does concern me when many Iraqi citizens consider the US worse than Saddam. That is not helping the situation.

 

Another thing that never gets discussed, but maybe another reason why the Iraqi occupation has been a whole lot tougher than it might have. First, after the first Gulf War, which had Saddam on the ropes, Pres. Bush Sr., encouraged the people of Iraq (most who were Kurds) to rise up an overthrow Saddam. Only problem with this is that the treaty we signed to end the war did not allow us to give the people we were encourging to rise up any aid. Even though Saddam forces were badly beaten, they were still strong enough to crush any uprising. And so I am guessing, some Iraqis might have a feeling of being let down by the US, and hence it could be a reason why many Iraqis don't trust the US, nor want us there. In their minds, the US let us down once before. I can imagine how much that might have sucked for those who decided to do just that, only to find that the one who is rooting you on, is not going to help out. And so that uprising got crushed, and I can understand why some might hold a grudge, even though I fully don't understand the complications of that, or why the US could not provide aid that might have given them chance to get rid of Saddam themselves.

 

Another factor, the sanctions that were imposed. Now, these did do a the job they were meant to do, but unfortunately, they were imposed on a country with a leader who could care less if his people suffered or not. So what was meant to weaken Saddam, actually ended up hurting the people of Iraq, even though that was not there intent. And a decent man, would have stepped down to stop the suffering of his people. Well Saddam is not a decent man, he is a tyrant, who obviously did not care about his people. Also, it didn't help that the oil-food programs ended up either being a complete farce, or a way Saddam could keep power over his people, by using oil to his advantage. So many innoncent Iraqis suffered because of Saddam's lack of compassion. What was meant to weaken Saddam's hold, might have actually kept him in power much longer, IMO. And of course, guess who got to take the blame on this one as well, that is right the US. My guess that many Iraqis have been told that these sanctions were meant to hurt them. All the people and children who suffered/died mainly because Saddam is heartless prick, was actually blamed on the US. And so I do believe that Iraqis, maybe some, my guess a bigger population blame us for this suffering, and so this is another reason why the occupation might take longer to win over the people than it should.

 

When people only get one viewpoint, and that viewpoint is negative, this is going to cause hatred. I think the US has a ways to go to earn the trust of the Iraqi people. Also, remember we are dealing with a Muslim country, and the US has an ally in Isreal, which we all know, the whole Arab world hates with a passion. And so that is another cause of the hatred. And this area of the world, religion is a much more important part of these people's lives. Passages that might justify killing of infidels, is used to breed hatred towards Isreal, and its allies, mainly the US. And this totally goes against the main teachings of Islam. I do believe that Mohamad, preached that one should accept those who are not believers of their faith, which I interpret as accept those whose beliefs differ from your own, because we are all God's creations. Funny how this never gets brought up or mentioned by these clerics who are egging on the anti US sentiment. But, when your population is not as educated, or has access to other mediums, or you tend to believe what ever the preacher preaches, in many cases, that Allah has justified that you kill all infidels (Jews, Christians, Non-Muslims). And so many recruiters for these Terrorist groupds are using selective passages to justify the anger of many people and bring new members into their groups. All believing they are doing God's workd. Also, when your economy is in the toilets, it is a lot easy to scapegoat everyone but your own people/government. But Allah loves you, but he would love you more if you kill the cause of all your problems, the non-believers. So religion used to bred hatred is another reason why the Iraq situation will continue to have problems. That, and no cleric will codemn Muslim beliefs used to justify hate.

 

And finally examining the history of Iraq. Before WWI, Iraq was occupied by the Ottoman Empire. Then the British occupied the country after WWI. And they occupied until sometime after WWII. So Iraq has a history of being occupied by countries. And no country likes being occupied, and this is in the Iraqi history. Fast forward to present day. Fast forward to the Gulf War II. First we are told that we must prevent WMD from being used. So that is Bush's justification for war. Many of our allies are not convinced, so the US goes in with a much smaller coalition, most made up of British and mostly American military, and this is where I think Rumsfield really underestimated that it was going to take more soldiers to keep the peace and allow the rebuilding of Iraq (which I do agree that since we did go to war in Iraq, Iraq should be rebuilt, but more help I believe will be needed).

 

And the war did end pretty quickly. Well the battles between Saddams forces ended quickly. And I am sure many Iraqis are happy we got rid of Saddam, but enough don't like us there, because we are now seen as the occupiers. And so guess what is used as a recruiting tool to these groups. Our good intentions are now twisted to the point that many in Iraq don't see the good, but only the bad. Which is why I think we need more countries help in the rebuilding of Iraq, to let the people know that it is not just the US, but the whole world that wants to help. So until more countries are allowed to help (and yes I am aware that many wanted no part in the fighting, and technically should not be allowed to help) we will continue to carry the stigma of being an occupier, without the Iraqi's best intentions in mind. Safe bet that many feel we are only there for the oil, and that is not a good perception to have. And this belief will be used to help recruit many to join terrorist causes as well.

 

So why do I feel more countries are needed to help rebuild Iraq. Well, for one, to help give relief to the soldiers who had their tours extended. Some may be willing to stay, but many I am sure have families who want Daddy or Mommy home. More countries help discredit the "Occupier" label, and if we were to get the help of Muslim countries, like Turkey, it might make the muslims of Iraq feel less threatened. But more countries means we are not shpuldering this burdon. Also, with more help, more patrols and policing can take place, helping make Iraq safer. And there are many other advantages as well as disadvantages, which have been discussed.

 

But, until the caos ceases, there is going to be hatred. And more Berg incidents will unfortunately occur. I know my ranting should go into other folders, but Iraq is now a place which might end up bringing in more terroritsts. And if the people of Iraq support the US, they will definately not want these groups comming into their country, because killing should never be justified by religion, even if they are preceived as infidels.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

We've been watching over hunger4unger for weeks now, and he's finally gone over the top.  He's either trolling or needs to be locked up, but he's causing way too many disturbances here.

But who's going to bring the insanity?

 

And who'll comfort kkk when he learns this happened?

-=Mike

I knew he wasn't going to last by the time I got back from my trip.

 

Methinks John Ashcroft reads TSM and sent Dames a PM...

[Stephen Joseph 0]

There's a very simple solution to the middle east

1) Promote Alternative Fuel Research already in progress

2) Wait till 2008, when the first fuel cell cars are produced

3) Wait till 2010, when they're in mass production.

4) Consumer oil dependency is gone then, over time industrial dependency would be reduced too

5) Then we don't care about oil.

 

I'm glad Unger was banned, and I'm at the point where I'm sick of Cartman too.

 

I am all for the US backing out 50 miles into the desert and letting these people kill each other off until reason/sanity/and lack of food and water might actually make them appreciate our presence.

 

I am sick of apologists

I am sick of sides using it for political gain.

 

Let's win the war by doing it right. We're not spending millions on smart bombs to miss and hit a 'children's hospital'

 

As far as I'm concerned, they need satellites to broadcast right? Take those offenders out (the radical ones)

 

Bomb the damn mosque where that cleric is. No more of this 'peacekeeping' bs. Fight a war.

[Guest BDC]

Is it just me or did the President get slammed for talking about alternative fuel means in the State of the Union address? That's what I really didn't get in the analysis of it.

 

Hey, I'm all for sticking it to OPEC. I'd buy a hybrid car if it met two conditions: One, if I could afford the stupid thing and two, if I could fit in it. No, I'm not fat, just tall, so a car I fit in is somewhat difficult. I tried lots of cars when I got one four years ago, and a Escort ZX2 coupe just did the job. Great mileage and I can fit in the driver's seat.

 

As for the area, well, I think of it as kind of like the Dark Ages. They've never been dragged, kicking and screaming, into an era of non-totalitarian government.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Of course they'd slam him for suggesting it. Bad Fuel Policy helps them (Demos) in this election.

 

And OPEC isn't that effective anymore. Every Western Nation has been increasing their reserves very quietly, and foreign competition makes the cartel not as powerful as it used to be...

 

Technological innovation. Making busting up cartels easier by the decade

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Upon double-checking it appears that Pop-Up Pirate was not a PBP, but a high probability of Kevin Malton being unger. I apologize to Pop-Up Pirate & Rob Edwards for the error, and he is free to come back.

 

Thanks to FrigidSoul for the help.

[Guest BDC]

Poor unger... nah.

 

Hey, I'm all about more efficient cars. If it doesn't run on oil, all the better in my book. Hell, that means we don't have to friggin' worry about depending on the middle east.

[BX 0]

Thank you for rectifying the error, Kahran.

[Downhome 0]

Upon double-checking it appears that Pop-Up Pirate was not a PBP, but a high probability of Kevin Malton being unger. I apologize to Pop-Up Pirate & Rob Edwards for the error, and he is free to come back.

 

Thanks to FrigidSoul for the help.

That is why mods like you are great, and an asset to the board. When you do something wrong, and it's proven and without a doubt, you are man enough to admit it.

 

Carry on.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Thanks to FrigidSoul for the help.

I'm really not use to this much thanks. Between you and Sass my ego is going to inflate enough to commence a strut.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Random CE Poster:

Who Cares If they Hate Us More?

 

People who didn't hate America wil hate America now and more people will become willing to do evil things like the 9/11 attack, etc.

 

I'm not saying that harsh measures shouldn't be taken but it's foolish to assume they can't have bad reprecussions.

[Guest Redhawk]

Every country that has a military has killed innocent people. Hiroshima, 9/11, Holocaust, whatever example you want to use, it's been done (I could even mention slavery. That was us, right? USA killing innocent people, right?).

 

Anyway, I don't see the point in trying to argue how the U.S. is right or Iraq is wrong or vice versa. This guy got beheaded just like Daniel Pearl. And you think no US soldier has ever beheaded an enemy and bragged about it? Just because it's not on VHS doesn't mean it's never happened.

 

Everyone does fucked up shit to everyone else in times like these. "We" are no more right than "they" are, it just depends on where you rest your head at night. America does what it has to do to -- in our eyes -- maintain security. Iraq does the same shit. Afghanistan does the same shit. Fuck it, Canada and France do the same shit. Civilians have no idea what it's like to be in a war-type situation, so I know I'm not going to call anyone, be they brown, Black, White, Asian, etc. -- an "animal" or a "hero" in these situations, because it's all relative to what actually went down in the trenches, and we don't even know that information.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

John Ashcroft reads TSM

Hello, fine patriots. I take it that you're taking elevated precautions for a terrorist attack in your Anysville, USA, right? Do remember to take cover and have bottled water in your shelter in the event a nuclear blast goes off in your neighborhood.

 

I have just come back in from putting an American flag in the front yard. It is armed with a tracking device, so any facist terrorist pigs who take it will be met with the full force of the Homeland Security Department, assuming I can convince them to come.

 

 

 

 

*shuts off computer, runs giant magnet over hard drive, and runs away*

[Lil' Bitch 0]

what reason did we have to attack Germany, since they never physically attacked us first?

 

They kept sinking our ships.

[Styles 0]

what reason did we have to attack Germany, since they never physically attacked us first?

 

They kept sinking our ships.

Um, unless my history is screwed up, didn't Germany declare war on US?

[justsoyouknow 0]

There's also the fact that Germany attempted to bribe Mexico into attacking us, telling them that they (Mexico) could have the land that we seized from them back.

 

I like how you say ships, plural. As far as my memory serves, I believe it was the Lusitania....which other ship(s) were sunk again?

[Slayer 0]

I could even mention slavery. That was us, right? USA killing innocent people, right

Not exactly

 

Forgotten is how the Brits, French and especially the Spanish had slaves for a good while before we did... hell, who do you think brought them over here in the first place (a good 150 years before the US actually existed)? They just had the good sense (for whatever reason) to abandon the concept well before we did. Also, that discounts the role of the higher class Africans who were actually selling their own people to the Euros.

 

 

 

Not to mention that killing your own slaves is counterproductive to the whole process. Those turnover costs are horrendous.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Every country that has a military has killed innocent people. Hiroshima, 9/11, Holocaust, whatever example you want to use, it's been done (I could even mention slavery. That was us, right? USA killing innocent people, right?).

 

Anyway, I don't see the point in trying to argue how the U.S. is right or Iraq is wrong or vice versa. This guy got beheaded just like Daniel Pearl. And you think no US soldier has ever beheaded an enemy and bragged about it? Just because it's not on VHS doesn't mean it's never happened.

 

Everyone does fucked up shit to everyone else in times like these. "We" are no more right than "they" are, it just depends on where you rest your head at night. America does what it has to do to -- in our eyes -- maintain security. Iraq does the same shit. Afghanistan does the same shit. Fuck it, Canada and France do the same shit. Civilians have no idea what it's like to be in a war-type situation, so I know I'm not going to call anyone, be they brown, Black, White, Asian, etc. -- an "animal" or a "hero" in these situations, because it's all relative to what actually went down in the trenches, and we don't even know that information.

So moral relativism is the answer, then?

 

Tremendous.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

John Ashcroft reads TSM

Hello, fine patriots. I take it that you're taking elevated precautions for a terrorist attack in your Anysville, USA, right? Do remember to take cover and have bottled water in your shelter in the event a nuclear blast goes off in your neighborhood.

I just got a flashback to 1999 when Big Media was telling us there was nothing to worry about in regards to the Y2K pending disaster, BUT always mentioned that we should withdraw $100 and stock up on some canned supplies and bottled water "just to be safe..."

[Guest MikeSC]

Is it just me or did the President get slammed for talking about alternative fuel means in the State of the Union address? That's what I really didn't get in the analysis of it.

 

Hey, I'm all for sticking it to OPEC. I'd buy a hybrid car if it met two conditions: One, if I could afford the stupid thing and two, if I could fit in it. No, I'm not fat, just tall, so a car I fit in is somewhat difficult. I tried lots of cars when I got one four years ago, and a Escort ZX2 coupe just did the job. Great mileage and I can fit in the driver's seat.

 

As for the area, well, I think of it as kind of like the Dark Ages. They've never been dragged, kicking and screaming, into an era of non-totalitarian government.

Bush gets slammed for a lot of things, many unfairly.

 

Remember the virtual laughter he got when he said sports need to get rid of steroids? What is baseball's MAJOR concern right now? He was ahead of the game.

 

Bush has tried to fix some of the oil problems, but drilling for new sources is forbidden in this country --- even though "alternative fuel sources" don't exist right now.

People who didn't hate America wil hate America now and more people will become willing to do evil things like the 9/11 attack, etc.

 

I'm not saying that harsh measures shouldn't be taken but it's foolish to assume they can't have bad reprecussions

Cobain, honest question --- name one person who had their view of America changed by this.

 

You can't --- because there isn't anybody. Those that hate us will continue to do so while they wallow in anonymity. Those that support us will do so because it is quite advantageous to do so.

 

We definitely should avoid "bad" acts --- and we are punishing the people responsible for Abu Gharib --- but to assume that any of these "scandals" will increase hatred for us is just not a plausible theory, in my eyes.

Um, unless my history is screwed up, didn't Germany declare war on US?

Yup, they did.

 

Terrorists have too --- and there is a sizable population of people who oppose fighting them.

-=Mike