Did Undertaker have a point?

[syxx2001 0]

With Nathan Jones and Brock Lesnar, 2 new guys, quitting within a year of each other, does it bring some truth to Undertaker's belief that new guys should pay their dues? They both quit because they couldnt handle the hectic wrestling schedule, meaning they should have gotten some time in on the indy circuit or over seas before jumping in the big pool? What do you guys think? I, for one laughed at him for saying "New guys shouldnt just come in, they arent paying their dues anymore and busting their ass for 45 people a night for 25 dollars", but I think he may have a point. Its like someone not playing basketball since middle school, going to a training camp for a team, making the cut and quitting in the middle of the season because he is out of shape and can't cut it anymore.

[jester 0]

As I recall, Undertaker came into the WWF squashing people left and right. I know he went through the Indies and all that, but what dues did he pay coming into WWF?

[AlaskanHero 0]

As I recall, Undertaker came into the WWF squashing people left and right. I know he went through the Indies and all that, but what dues did he pay coming into WWF?

Three words. Mean. Mark. Callous.

 

Now, if wrestling with that name, and trying to become a big name, isn't paying some kind of dues then well....there's no justice in the world.

[jester 0]

As I recall, Undertaker came into the WWF squashing people left and right.  I know he went through the Indies and all that, but what dues did he pay coming into WWF?

Three words. Mean. Mark. Callous.

 

Now, if wrestling with that name, and trying to become a big name, isn't paying some kind of dues then well....there's no justice in the world.

As I said, I know he went through hell to get to the WWF. But as soon as he got in, he was made into an unstopple monster and kept at that level for quite awhile. He wasn't pushed for a few matches, then pulled back to job to midcarders.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Don't confuse paying your dues in the WWE with paying your dues trying to get to the WWE.

 

Taker wrestled in Texas and Memphis and then the NWA for 3 or 4 years before he got to the WWF. He had size and a look and had experience in the national spotlight and the WWF had a gimmick for him.

 

Lesnar had a couple years in OVW but OVW is a small circuit with limited travelling. It's not really the same as working someplace like USWA.And OVW would be a WWE contract. Someplace like USWA would be pay-by-night.

[1234-5678 0]

Paying your dues is one thing. But when you take a guy who is well known, like an RVD or a Taz, and job em out, or don't give them the shots they deserve, or try to stick em in the midcard........it's just stupid.

[jester 0]

Paying your dues is one thing. But when you take a guy who is well known, like an RVD or a Taz, and job em out, or don't give them the shots they deserve, or try to stick em in the midcard........it's just stupid.

Exactly. They are very selective about what "paying your dues" means. The bottom line is they push/not push who they want. Whether they have experience or not only matters if it justifies their decision after the fact.

 

This is the company that will happily babble about your college football days--and never once mention your time in the Indies. If they're really feeling generous, they might mention your time in WCW or ECW once in a blue moon.

 

Who wants to bet that if Sting showed up in WWE tomorrow, there would be rumblings about he "needing to learn the WWE style" -- in other words paying some dues?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

As I recall, Undertaker came into the WWF squashing people left and right.  I know he went through the Indies and all that, but what dues did he pay coming into WWF?

Three words. Mean. Mark. Callous.

 

Now, if wrestling with that name, and trying to become a big name, isn't paying some kind of dues then well....there's no justice in the world.

As I said, I know he went through hell to get to the WWF. But as soon as he got in, he was made into an unstopple monster and kept at that level for quite awhile. He wasn't pushed for a few matches, then pulled back to job to midcarders.

It took him 7 years to get a title reign more than a few days.

[syxx2001 0]

More than 2 fucking months.

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

Paying your dues is a retarded saying.

 

All a guy should have to do to be able to get a job or a higher spot is show he can handle it. Really simple. Doing shit at ShitWrestlingFederation for shit pay for shit amount of years while you could be making someone and yourself big time money isn't justifiable in any land.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

He does to a degree but it's just become an excuse to bury popular mid-carders.

[syxx2001 0]

But Nelly, neither Nathan Jones NOR Brock Lesnar could handle it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Don't confuse paying your dues in the WWE with paying your dues trying to get to the WWE.

 

Taker wrestled in Texas and Memphis and then the NWA for 3 or 4 years before he got to the WWF. He had size and a look and had experience in the national spotlight and the WWF had a gimmick for him.

 

Lesnar had a couple years in OVW but OVW is a small circuit with limited travelling. It's not really the same as working someplace like USWA.And OVW would be a WWE contract. Someplace like USWA would be pay-by-night.

Benoit and Eddie had to "pay their dues" as well. Its a retarded notion for those guys, not so much for newbies like Lesnar.

[Guest JerichosHi-Lite]

I have this old video of 'Taker through the ages (from about 1992) and he's been through a lot of characters. Besides, in about four years, Kurt Angle's had more WWE titles than Taker's had in thirteen years. And 'Taker's injury list is looooooooong. I've read about a load of injuries he worked through in the beginning of his WWE career without taking time off from it. I know most wrestlers do that, but ... I dunno ... I kind of agree with him

[Guest Staravenger]

Taker was only in the main event scene, jobbing to the Warrior at house shows, and a quickie World Title feud with Hogan where he got an amazing 6 Day Reign, one of the shortest reigns ever at the time (I think other than Andre of course, Stan Staziak had like a 5 day reign back in the day)

 

From 1992 through the summer of 96 he had to drag matches above "crap" with Kamala, Giant Gonzalez, Mabel, Yokozuna, Kama, Fake Undertaker, King Kong Bundy etc etc. I think the last few lines is enough for paying dues. He's been in countless stupid, crappy angles, and has done it to the best of his ability.

 

I'm sure most wrestlers would groan or refuse to put up with feuds Taker has been put through. Feuding with your fake self anyone? Or how about the wonderful feud with Giant Gonzalez that spanned EIGHT MONTHS? Or a year long feud with the heatless Million Dollar Corporation?

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Undertaker had a point, but on the other hand he's putting off a "high and mighty" vibe by being the "dues paying police"

[King Cucaracha 0]

Staravenger makes a good point. Considering the crap Taker got handed as opposition, I'd say he paid his dues.

 

And hell...everybody (well, 98% of people) on this board hated Randy Orton until he took a tack bump. And nearly every OVW guy gets shat on instantly. So, I guess you've got to pay some dues to get respect.

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

"But Nelly, neither Nathan Jones NOR Brock Lesnar could handle it. "

 

The only thing Lesnar showed us is he wanted to do something else at that time. You can't say 'he couldn't handle it' because of rumors of him being frustrated with the traveling or the booking.

 

Jones was signed because of his look so really is irrelevant because he shouldn't of been expected to handle it.

 

I mean really what is preposed? A mandatory amount of time spent doing nothing? Go from OVW to another developement fed that travels? If you don't have 5+ years in the business you can't go any further than lower midcard?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Staravenger makes a good point. Considering the crap Taker got handed as opposition, I'd say he paid his dues.

 

And hell...everybody (well, 98% of people) on this board hated Randy Orton until he took a tack bump. And nearly every OVW guy gets shat on instantly. So, I guess you've got to pay some dues to get respect.

What fucking morons started liking Orton after he took a tack bump?

[syxx2001 0]

I still hate him.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

I wouldn't say they LIKED him, but they gave him some props for having the sack to take the bump. I wouldn't say I "like" him right now, but shit - he's got balls.

[godthedog 0]

i liked orton for a little while. when he would face batista & batista would KILL him with a clothesline. happened 2 for 2 straight weeks on smackdown, and it was great. then at a house show batista knocked him unconscious with it, and i stopped seeing them together.

[Guest Ray]

"Paying your dues" is really one of the dumbest things ever.

 

You push whoever will help your company be successful, regardless of whether they've "paid their dues."

[iggymcfly 0]

"But Nelly, neither Nathan Jones NOR Brock Lesnar could handle it. "

 

The only thing Lesnar showed us is he wanted to do something else at that time. You can't say 'he couldn't handle it' because of rumors of him being frustrated with the traveling or the booking.

 

Jones was signed because of his look so really is irrelevant because he shouldn't of been expected to handle it.

 

I mean really what is preposed? A mandatory amount of time spent doing nothing? Go from OVW to another developement fed that travels? If you don't have 5+ years in the business you can't go any further than lower midcard?

You don't have to wait five years to be in the upper midcard, but it would be perfectly reasonable to avoid giving someone the title three months after they debut, and then letting them hold it for basically half of their three year career. If they hadn't scheduled Brock to get the belt until say Summerslam of last year, and hadn't already given him financial security for life, he might not have gotten "bored with the WWE" so fast. He would be happy to finally be on top, and wouldn't feel the need to play a "real sport" instead.

 

And if he really was that unhappy with wrestling, Brock probably would have quit before the WWE invested a huge push in him, at the expense of pretty much everyone else on the roster. Brock being the ONLY strong heel on Smackdown for his whole tenure created the vacuum on the heel side now that lets JBL be pushed as a WWE champion.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I think the whole idea behind the "paying your dues" is one that I can understand. It's basically a concept which shows that the reason you're in wrestling is because you love wrestling, not because you want to be famous. There are plenty of guys getting into wrestling because of the desire to be rich and have people recognize them. A lot of them don't make it, and for obvious reasons. This seems to be the reason Brock got into it (At least that's what it seems like in the ESPN article), and the concept of paying your dues prevents that from becoming a common occurence.

I'm not saying we go back to the days where trainers would shoot on their students to prove a point, but a lot of people don't take it seriously anymore.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I don't think it's so much paying your dues, and I think Jones is a nonfactor here (although he did work for indies for a bit), but I think having Lesnar annihilate guys and win the title in 4 months was a bit excessive.

 

The only thing they did right was having him sit and destroy guys like Jeff Hardy and RVD on the way to the title. If they had let him steamroll through impact players before winning the belt, they would have pulled a Goldberg and made the rest of the roster look stupid, and once people stopped caring Lesnar, all they'd have is a bunch of people who were just made to look like chumps.

 

I don't like Austin one bit, but perhaps we should be thankful he refused to work Lesnar, and put an end to this Goldberg vibe that McMahon was trying to build.

[Guest Justin Competent]

The WWE was smart for knowing they had to have Big Show pay his dues before making him a long-term main-eventer. After his initial monster push failed, he was sent to OVW. When he was called-up, he floundered around the mid-card for a while, and in that period of time, he learned a lot. Kurt Angle also got the mega-push without paying his dues in the Pro-Wrestling world, but he also won an Olympic Gold Medal with a broken-freaking-neck. I think Kurt is the exeception, not the rule. I'm even surprised to see how much desire that Kurt has for a so-called "fake" sport.

 

To show that I believe that wrestlers need to spend some time paying thier dues, I just say two words: Ultimate Warrior.

[AndrewTS 0]

I think the whole idea behind the "paying your dues" is one that I can understand. It's basically a concept which shows that the reason you're in wrestling is because you love wrestling, not because you want to be famous.

However, instead of hiring wrestlers, they hire "athletes" who start in every field but wrestling, and then try to teach them to work. Then they act surprised that so many of them are really not into it.

 

Gee, who would have thought a bodybuilder nearly 40 years old wouldn't really have his heart into the business?

[Guest El Satanico]

"paying dues" is just an excuse spouted off by veterens worried about being knocked out of their spot by younger guys or up and comers.

 

Undertaker's remaining time is getting short and he knows it, so he's using whatever he can to give him an advantage over younger guys. I've seen more bad than good come from "paying dues".

[Promoter 0]

There are good things and bad things about "paying your dues". I do think there are exceptions like Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle in that they created a character to fit their background. Angle really should be sweeping through the wwe in his first year and the same with Brock, but as someone said maybe it was a bit too extreme. I think if Brock actually won the title at WM 19 against Angle instead of going over Rock he would not have been played out for his second title within a year of his "rookie season". There is a character excuse sometimes for not paying your dues. What would Vince Mcmahon do in 1991 with Ric Flair coming up north with the NWA World Heavyweight title? Job him out and work his way up? He was "the real world's champion" wooo! (Excuse me lost it there).

 

Then there is the excuse of paying your dues as a way not to push someone they don't want to. I mean did wcw have to pay their dues in the storyline invasion of 2001 too? I guess the best reason for paying your dues is to prevent people like Goldberg coming in destorying the other wrestlers and then turn around and bash the artform after making big money. The problem with paying your dues is that it all depends on the motivation behind it. Is it to improve the wrestler? Is it to keep people down? Is it to prevent swelled heads? Is it used to just piss of the wrestler to make him quit? It all depends.