Jump to content
TSM Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Special K

Best rogues' galleries

Recommended Posts

Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
^..out of those, I already have Dark Knight Returns and Long Halloween. Highly enjoyable titles. I'm going to get my hands on Killing Joke and Year One pretty soon.

 

Astounding analysis of Two-Face/Harvey Dent there, Mr.Zsasz. Great read.

Just curious...what's your opinion on the Arkham Asylum GN, seeing that is not on your recommended list of Batman books. I have it, btw, and while I somehow enjoyed the art style, the story's...I dunno, just can't really get into it.

I loved Arkham, but I don't think it works particularly well as an intro to Batman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know if there's truth to the rumor that DC will start publishing TPB for Batman akin to Marvel's Essentials? Supposedly they're going to start at Detective #27 and go where continuity takes them depending on sales.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh and The Joker has no definitive origin. Even he can't remember who he was

 

So he's basically like Wolverine (pre Origin), being that he doesn't have a definitive origin story? Does that mean that he was never the Red Hood with that funky helmet and cape? Please explain a little, Zsasz, thanks.

 

Thing is, tons of DC characters (heroes and villains alike) have had their origin stories reworked, retooled, remade, retold over the years. Look at Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Hawkman, even Supes. The villains are no exception so it stands to figure that most origins and characters have been deepened/re-explained somewhat for modern audiences. Most Marvel characters origins (heroes and villains) got it right the first time around so no tweeking has been necessary, and that's a testament to their longevity. I hate it when they start retelling origin stories over and over again, specially if you've been following and reading all of them for several years like myself.

 

Think I went off-topic a bit there but I had to say it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I'll weigh in on the Spdey issue with his villians...I always saw him as the workhorse of all the Marvel heroes because he would just fight anyone...no they weren't threatening the world but he didn't care...they posed a threat to the people and he stopped them all...that motivated them to try and attack his personal life in ways that most super heroes didn't have to worry about...he had just as many crazy villians as Bats but they usually had the advatage of having various powers and abilities that Spidey had to adapt to...but the X-Men always had the best villians that seemed to mirror the realities of real life...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
Oh and The Joker has no definitive origin. Even he can't remember who he was

 

So he's basically like Wolverine (pre Origin), being that he doesn't have a definitive origin story? Does that mean that he was never the Red Hood with that funky helmet and cape? Please explain a little, Zsasz, thanks.

 

He knows he was the Red Hood because Batman saw him that way... but he's become so crazed that he remembers his past differently every time he tries to think of it.

 

Oh and about the Marvel/DC "tweaking" thing...

 

HEROES REBORN. THE FINAL CHAPTER. et cetera.

 

Yeah, I said it. Marvel is constantly messing with their properties and their origins. They're even worse than DC who really only did CRISIS because they wanted the Charleston heroes, the Captain Marvel universe, the Regular DC, and all the other properties they had bought in the same universe. They also wanted to get rid of Earth 2 and stuff. CRISIS wasn't done to improve origins... that was just a cool byproduct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah Marvel seems to get bored with there characters and be like "Oh man! To much backstory and continuity! AHA! If we remake all the heroes then people won't have to worry about continuity! They can start at a new #1 and go from there! Yay!"

That just irks me like nothing else.

 

What was the deal with DC's different worlds and such? I don't know really anything about DC though I'm getting into there characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
Yeah Marvel seems to get bored with there characters and be like "Oh man! To much backstory and continuity! AHA! If we remake all the heroes then people won't have to worry about continuity! They can start at a new #1 and go from there! Yay!"

That just irks me like nothing else.

 

What was the deal with DC's different worlds and such? I don't know really anything about DC though I'm getting into there characters.

DC started out in the late thirties, and was the first to publish super-hero comics: SUPERMAN in ACTION COMICS, THE BAT-MAN in DETECTIVE COMICS, and THE SANDMAN in ADVENTURE COMICS. But they weren't the only ones taking a shot at the Super Hero game.

 

Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, and quite a few others started out as characters from other companies, that were bought up by DC when the comics industry was getting lean. When these chaarcters were bought, to preserve continuity, they were just kept in their own little world.

 

Also, comics writers came up with the concept of Earth 2 and other Earths to do "What If?" type stories, and someone decided that the DC Universe needed to be streamlined.

 

Hence, CRISIS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah Marvel seems to get bored with there characters and be like "Oh man! To much backstory and continuity! AHA! If we remake all the heroes then people won't have to worry about continuity! They can start at a new #1 and go from there! Yay!"

That just irks me like nothing else.

 

What was the deal with DC's different worlds and such? I don't know really anything about DC though I'm getting into there characters.

DC started out in the late thirties, and was the first to publish super-hero comics: SUPERMAN in ACTION COMICS, THE BAT-MAN in DETECTIVE COMICS, and THE SANDMAN in ADVENTURE COMICS. But they weren't the only ones taking a shot at the Super Hero game.

 

Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, and quite a few others started out as characters from other companies, that were bought up by DC when the comics industry was getting lean. When these chaarcters were bought, to preserve continuity, they were just kept in their own little world.

 

Also, comics writers came up with the concept of Earth 2 and other Earths to do "What If?" type stories, and someone decided that the DC Universe needed to be streamlined.

 

Hence, CRISIS.

Earth 2 was the home to the Justice Society of America and all the Golden Age versions characters like the Alan Scott Green Lantern. Their continuity problems were caused by continually having characters going back and forth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
Yeah Marvel seems to get bored with there characters and be like "Oh man! To much backstory and continuity! AHA! If we remake all the heroes then people won't have to worry about continuity! They can start at a new #1 and go from there! Yay!"

That just irks me like nothing else.

 

What was the deal with DC's different worlds and such? I don't know really anything about DC though I'm getting into there characters.

DC started out in the late thirties, and was the first to publish super-hero comics: SUPERMAN in ACTION COMICS, THE BAT-MAN in DETECTIVE COMICS, and THE SANDMAN in ADVENTURE COMICS. But they weren't the only ones taking a shot at the Super Hero game.

 

Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, and quite a few others started out as characters from other companies, that were bought up by DC when the comics industry was getting lean. When these chaarcters were bought, to preserve continuity, they were just kept in their own little world.

 

Also, comics writers came up with the concept of Earth 2 and other Earths to do "What If?" type stories, and someone decided that the DC Universe needed to be streamlined.

 

Hence, CRISIS.

Earth 2 was the home to the Justice Society of America and all the Golden Age versions characters like the Alan Scott Green Lantern. Their continuity problems were caused by continually having characters going back and forth.

Earth 2 was just one of the Infinite Earths.

 

Earth 3 had Lois marry Lex Luthor, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He knows he was the Red Hood because Batman saw him that way... but he's become so crazed that he remembers his past differently every time he tries to think of it.

 

Oh and about the Marvel/DC "tweaking" thing...

 

HEROES REBORN. THE FINAL CHAPTER. et cetera.

 

Yeah, I said it. Marvel is constantly messing with their properties and their origins. They're even worse than DC who really only did CRISIS because they wanted the Charleston heroes, the Captain Marvel universe, the Regular DC, and all the other properties they had bought in the same universe. They also wanted to get rid of Earth 2 and stuff. CRISIS wasn't done to improve origins... that was just a cool byproduct.

 

All clear on the Joker issue. Thanks, Zsasz.

 

Regarding the CRISIS vs HEROES REBORN thingie:

 

HR was truly a fucked up concept, but by no means it is considered as the official origin stories of the Avengers, FF, Hulk, Cap, etc. It was just a pocket Universe storyline, they came back, end of story. Stupid? yes. Canon? No.

Final Chapter (that's the return of Norman Osborne, right?) was a necessity used to clean up the Clone saga mess once and for all. For all the hate this storyline seems to get, it's surprising to find that it did pretty well sales-wise. Another stupid move by Marvel, but I think they saw that as the only way to salvage all the mess. Not to say that I agree with it, mind you.

 

Crisis cleaned up the slate for many, many DC characters alright, but the thing is that they still kept messing with major characters years after the fact and repeatedly. Let's take the JLA, for example. That reworking I understand, no prob. Wonder Woman? Sure. Supes? OK. But why keep messing with the boy scout's origin? Aquaman and Hawkman are just two of the biggest offenders here. The Legion of SH, the JSA, both give me headaches. And let's not even talk about Zero Hour. And wasn't Cap Marvel already in DC continuity before Crisis?

 

Continuity-wise, DC is just a huge mess. Marvel used to be very tight, but lately they've been screwing up and if they continue this way they could end up just as bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
Crisis cleaned up the slate for many, many DC characters alright, but the thing is that they still kept messing with major characters years after the fact and repeatedly.

 

Not really. They made changes in the stories, but it was a continuing evolution, and not a series of Crisis like events. Other than ZERO HOUR, which simply tied up the threads of Crisis as they pertained to things like the original JSA and the Leigon, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Let's take the JLA, for example. That reworking I understand, no prob. Wonder Woman? Sure. Supes? OK. But why keep messing with the boy scout's origin?

 

What the hell does Superman's origin have to do with the JLA? Also, when have they drastically altered Superman's origin post- Byrne? Not to mention the fact that Wonder Woman was barely affected by CRISIS. Seriously, you need to elaborate here, because I have no clue what you're even talking about. Try backing it up with issues, and stories and stuff like that, and not just shit you've heard second hand.

 

Aquaman and Hawkman are just two of the biggest offenders here. The Legion of SH, the JSA, both give me headaches. And let's not even talk about Zero Hour. And wasn't Cap Marvel already in DC continuity before Crisis?

 

The Marvel family was in a seperate universe from the rest till Crisis, they were made by DC Comics, but didn't interact with the rest of the Dc Universe till after that.Hawkman I will give you WAS a mess... until Geoff Johns sorted it out a couple years back and pretty much totally explained it. You're off base on Aquaman though, he's always been pretty straightfoward continuity wise. Maybe you can tell me what's wrong with him... I doubt it though.

 

Continuity-wise, DC is just a huge mess. Marvel used to be very tight, but lately they've been screwing up and if they continue this way they could end up just as bad.

 

Honestly, with guys like Jeph Loeb, Brad Meltzer, and Geoff Johns bringing back the Silver and Bronze Ages and being big continuity buffs... and Marvel forgetting about it's entire history between Stan lee and 1998. I'd say you've got it the wrong way 'round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen

I'd like to sum up this thread for those of you just joining us.

 

Special K: "So which hero has the best villians? I think these guys have-"

 

Half the Comics Folder: "Dude, it's Batman."

 

Marvel Fans: "No way, you ALWAYS say that and I'm sick of it! Spider-Man's rogues are just as good! Better, even!"

 

Man in Blak: "Nuh-uh, they suck. "

 

Marvel Fans: "Nuh-uh, YOU suck. Batman's villains are OVERRATED."

 

Zsasz: "But what about... tragic motivation, blah, blah, blah"

 

Tawren: "Bullshit. Norman Osbourne blows them all away."

 

Zsasz: (Gives the complete psychological profile of Two-Face)

 

(The folder looks at Zsasz with new level of disgust/awe)

 

Dama: "I should start reading Batman"

 

Marvel Fans: "I think your continuity sucks."

 

DC Fans: "I think YOUR continuity sucks."

 

Meanwhile, at the Hall of Justice: Aquaman is trying to drown himself!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen

I'd also like to take this time to point out that Superman has quite the little stable of cool baddies:

 

1. Lex Luthor - I don't need to explain this one.

 

2. Darkseid - Coolest damn bad guy in either universe.

 

3. Brainiac - Slowly but surely, he's become more and more menacing over the past few years. Definitely no longer a joke, and after the Superman animated show, he's a bonafide threat.

 

4. Parasite - Classic bad guy, with a great power that gives him horror movie undertones.

 

5. Metallo - Man who has lost himself, and lashes out in the only way he knows how. Great bad guy with an obvious edge over the hero (Kryptonite heart) and some good psychological undertones that weren't covered till the Animated series got hold of him.

 

6. General Zod - He's dead now, but so is Kraven and he got a mention for Spider-Man. KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

 

7. Mr. Mxyzptlk - Great character for whom the Fourth Wall is made of cellophane. He was fantastic in a recent issue of Rucka's AoS, and he's the one baddie that Superman needs to outthink to beat.

 

8. MONGUL - Read "For the Man Who Has Everything"

 

9. BIZARRO - IT AM BEEEZARRO TIME!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest SpiderFan
Final Chapter (that's the return of Norman Osborne, right?) was a necessity used to clean up the Clone saga mess once and for all.

Final Chapter was the last storyline before the Reboot. It brought Auny May back from the dead, saw Norman trying to use a DNA bomb to wipe humanity clean (so he can remold them in his vision), and the battle where Peter stops Goblin taking place off panel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Man in Blak: "Nuh-uh, they suck. "

I would edit that to read "*shoots fish in barrel*", but that's just me.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised I didn't take more fire for my original contention that the X-Men villains were second best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, again, I'm no DC expert. I used to read tons of DC stuff pre-crisis, so I have a bit of knowledge there, but afterwards I switched to Marvel and I haven't looked back since. I'm not trying to stir up shit here. I already said I went off-topic and I apologize for it. Having said that, I'll try to explain my points.

 

The relation between Supes and the JLA? Early JLA stories had Supes be a key member in their exploits. After the Man of Steel series, when Kal-El was rocketed to Earth as a fetus (he was literally "born" on earth), it was stablished that Superman was no longer there at that time so they changed it and changed the original roster to that of Black Canary (who I believe replaced Wonder Woman), GL, Flash, the Martian, and someone else I'm forgetting (Aquaman?). The non-appearence of Supes until later also dramatically changed the Legion of Super Heroes, since there no longer was a Superboy in current continuity (Superman no longer used the suit as a teen) to inspire their formation. And wasn't Joe Kelly trying to change his origins with Krypton not being what he thought it was or something a couple of years ago?

 

Wonder Woman I do believe was changed after Crisis. She was no longer an Amazon-born warrior, but was made out of clay that the gods gave life to. At some point after that it was stablished she had different powers: she could fly, was as fast as the Flash (the speed of Hermes) and as strong as Hercules. No Steve Trevor or the likes.

 

Aquaman was a guy (Arthur Curry, I believe was his original name)born out of atlantean and normal parents (I believe his father was human and his mother atlantean). His father then was made to be a Poseidon-like being with powers over the ocean (his soul/spirit inhabited this artificial body with all those powers). After that his origins were changed (Time & Tide mini-series maybe?) Peter David made him to be all moody and with anger-management issues, and a couple of years ago his powers were changed and now he can control not only fish but humans as well.

 

JSA were around for WWII but somehow they never got much older, or they did get older but managed to regain their youth somehow. I don't have all the facts here so I can't elaborate more. Thing is somehow when they interacted with other DC heroes sometime they looked as young and sometimes they looked like their grandparents.

 

The Captain Marvel family I do believe interacted with the rest of DC, but this was years ago so my memory might be playing tricks on me.

 

Mr Zsasz, I'm sure your an expert on DC, so if you can correct/elaborate on anything I've written, feel free to do so. Let's keep it friendly here and help this thread to keep going with a nice discussion. Too bad it got mixed with the Rogues gallery topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
I like Batman, but the stories are either hit or miss. I loved Hush, and the one that followed up by Azzarello I just couldn't get into.

Batman is seriously the most consistant hero as far as quality goes over the last twenty years or so.

 

Hit or miss is how you describe The X-Men or Spider-Man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I could add something, pochorenella, I don't think Wonder Woman is as fast as The Flash now. Geoff Johns has established that The Flash can outrun Superman (since "It doesn't make sense that your one power is running and someone can run faster than you."). Although she did keep up with him in Tower of Babel...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
The relation between Supes and the JLA? Early JLA stories had Supes be a key member in their exploits. After the Man of Steel series, when Kal-El was rocketed to Earth as a fetus (he was literally "born" on earth), it was stablished that Superman was no longer there at that time so they changed it and changed the original roster to that of Black Canary (who I believe replaced Wonder Woman), GL, Flash, the Martian, and someone else I'm forgetting (Aquaman?). The non-appearence of Supes until later also dramatically changed the Legion of Super Heroes, since there no longer was a Superboy in current continuity (Superman no longer used the suit as a teen) to inspire their formation. And wasn't Joe Kelly trying to change his origins with Krypton not being what he thought it was or something a couple of years ago?

 

Yes, he was not part of the original line up post-Crisis. But he did join later. The lack of Superboy in the new continuity was solved later on with Zero Hour, so that's a moot point. But none of this really indicates that they've been continually messing with continuity as you suggust. The reboot is something they've stuck with since CRISIS, and it's really improvedthe Superman mythos tremendously.

 

Also I should mention you're not telling me anything I don't already know at this point.

 

Wonder Woman I do believe was changed after Crisis. She was no longer an Amazon-born warrior, but was made out of clay that the gods gave life to. At some point after that it was stablished she had different powers: she could fly, was as fast as the Flash (the speed of Hermes) and as strong as Hercules. No Steve Trevor or the likes.

 

She was always pretty fast, but even now she's not as fast as Flash. The origin has been slightly changed, but the clay didn't replace anything. They never explained before how an island of women could give birth to more women. The flight was a method of replacing the invisible jet.

 

The problem with complaining about these changes is that they WORK. They keep the core of the characters, while removing the silliness that you see in 50's and 60's comics. Marvel didn't need to do this because for the most part their characters were created in the 60's and they never went through all the changes that characters that are 40 years old (Like the A list DC guys were in the 80's) went through.

 

Aquaman was a guy (Arthur Curry, I believe was his original name)born out of atlantean and normal parents (I believe his father was human and his mother atlantean). His father then was made to be a Poseidon-like being with powers over the ocean (his soul/spirit inhabited this artificial body with all those powers). After that his origins were changed (Time & Tide mini-series maybe?) Peter David made him to be all moody and with anger-management issues, and a couple of years ago his powers were changed and now he can control not only fish but humans as well.

 

His origins were never changed. Peter David altered the character a bit, but he didn't with his stories. He didn't retcon out Aquaman's past... he BUILT on it. Maybe Marvel could learn a lesson or two from that guy, huh?

 

JSA were around for WWII but somehow they never got much older, or they did get older but managed to regain their youth somehow. I don't have all the facts here so I can't elaborate more. Thing is somehow when they interacted with other DC heroes sometime they looked as young and sometimes they looked like their grandparents.

 

Yeah the JSA were stuck in limbo, which is how they retained their youth. They're origins are identical to the ones they had in the 40's.

 

The Captain Marvel family I do believe interacted with the rest of DC, but this was years ago so my memory might be playing tricks on me.

 

I'm pretty sure that if they did, it was in one of those giant-sized cross over things that everyone knows "doesn't really count".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I could add something, pochorenella, I don't think Wonder Woman is as fast as The Flash now. Geoff Johns has established that The Flash can outrun Superman (since "It doesn't make sense that your one power is running and someone can run faster than you."). Although she did keep up with him in Tower of Babel...

 

Yes, I remember that friendly race they had. I'm sure the Flash could outrun her if push comes to shove, it's just that she's supposed to have the speed of a god (the god of speed, no less) so you have to wonder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a damm good question.

 

The Hulk only has Abomination, The Absorbing Man, Leader, and although hes not a villian Wolverine.

 

The Fantastic Four has Doctor Doom Annilyus & Galactus, anyone else I could care less about but they get major points just because of Doctor Doom, he IS the best supervillian of all time afterall.

 

Daredevils Rouges Gallary also relies mostly on two guys they being The Kingpin, and Bullseye. Still though he has some fun B listers there are like Stilt Man, and its not usual for Spider-Mans baddies to show up.

 

The Avengers has The Masters Of Evil, with Baron Zemo thats always fun, plus theres Ultron, Loki & to a lesser extinct Kang.

 

Its certinally not Superman either, for such a popular hero he only has is Lex Luthor whos miles ahead of everyone else, Darkseid, Braniac and Bizarro are all good too. I would put Doomsday in that cataglory but aside from putting Blue Bettle in a coma (My favorite part of the whole Death of Superman storyline :D), and "killing" Superman I never saw him as anything else then a really big strong dumbass.

 

The Flash has some nifty Rouges I think Captian Cold is awesome inspite of the lameness you get when looking at him. Thinker, Gorilla Grood, & The Trickster are all good to though.

 

The X-Mens best is Magneto naturally, They also have Dark Phoenix though it was for that one storyline only it made a impact that has lasted ever since. Cassandra Nova is neat as are The Hellfire Club, Proteus, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Sabretooth Mystique, who NEEDS to go back to just being a pain in the side to the X-Men and of corse Juggernaut who I think is the #2 X-Men villian, why hes a good guy now when hes such an awesome villan just goes right over my head, the ball was dropped big time on that one, I mean Mystique is one thing but Juggernaut? With all the good though theres also a load of crap. Im still to pissed at Heros Reborn to put Onslaught in the group. Arcade and Mojo also just come across as lame too. I mean C'mon Mojo evil because he wants his television shows to get ratings and does evil things for that? Bla I say.

 

The best rouges have it down to Batman & Spider-Man, those two are miles ahead of everyone else in my opinion. Im not even sure which Rogues gallery I like more.

 

Batman has Joker of corse, but theres also Ras Al Ghul, Two Face, The Riddler who profile was upped quite a bit thanks to Hush, Killer Croc, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Clayface, Mr. Freeze and The Penguin. Mr. Zasasz, has always been one stroy away from being one of the A listers but unfortunally hasnt got it yet. Bane gets points for actually being able to put Batman out of the picture for a while, but that was only because most of the people I have mentioned above wore him out first. Still though the Batman & Robin movie hurt him big time, Bane is not a big stupid guy whos really strong and protects Poision Ivy.

 

Spider-Man has The Green Goblin, Venom, Doctor Octopus, The Lizard, Electro, Sandman, Scorpion, Kraven The Hunter, Carnage, Vulture, The Kingpin, Mysterio, Hobgoblin, Rhino, Morbius, Shocker, & although not a villian in the traditional sence you gotta put 'ol J. Johnna Jameson up there as well, he is the one who after all turned everyone on Spider-Man has has been able to keep them against him for years. But once again theres always some crap and it dosent get much crappier then Typeface.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rage brings up a good point. The problem with Marvel villains is that too many of the good ones (Venom, Juggernaut) get so popular that instead of making them more evil, they just turn them into good bad guys. I think Bane helped out Batman recently, but that story with the whole "I'm your brother...psyche" twist sounded lame. I don't know where he stands now. Any other DC villains that have 'turned face' for lack of a better term?

 

*Rereads Tower of Babel*

 

APO's right. Flash wins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen
If I could add something, pochorenella, I don't think Wonder Woman is as fast as The Flash now. Geoff Johns has established that The Flash can outrun Superman (since "It doesn't make sense that your one power is running and someone can run faster than you."). Although she did keep up with him in Tower of Babel...

 

Yes, I remember that friendly race they had. I'm sure the Flash could outrun her if push comes to shove, it's just that she's supposed to have the speed of a god (the god of speed, no less) so you have to wonder.

He actually outran her in that ToB issue.

 

He ran out in front of her and waved, and she laughed because it was a friendly race anyway.

 

EDIT: APO said it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×