The Invasion and nWo

[humongous2002 0]

Invasion failed because the lack of any serious big names, DDP, RVD, Dreamer, Booker, Rhyno were probably the biggest names out of the bunch but they didn't translate that starpower very well intially in the WWF.

Well one of them did, RVD was the most over guy in 2001 rivaling the Rock as a top babyface but like always WWE had to fuck that up too (purposely) because Rob wasn't from OVW.

[Promoter 0]

I agree with the obstacles the angle had. It's true that the wwe couldn't sign the big guns because of the men being like any other human being by sitting out the contract. It is also true that it was an uphill climb at the start because the wwe and wcw were at war for years with the wwe programming fans to think wcw sucked. I thought the Shane Mcmahon purchase was a good angle because it was all over the news that the wwe had bought wcw. To make things realistic I think having a Mcmahon in the storyline was needed. Now, if Shane had announced Eric Bischoff as the new president or general manager of wcw it would have worked better by having wcw's figurehead leading the charge. I also thought the ECW angle was good, but after that night on raw it came off too contrived with everything falling into place the way it did. It's the same thing I stated with not mixing the brands too much. It all became one show for all intents and purposes which if planted as entities wouldn't happen on a consistent basis.

 

There is a point about the networks probably making a stink about the wcw changeover. I think that is why haing someone like Steve Austin as a poster boy for the new wcw might have at least helped. Something could have been worked out because look how the wwe has gotten away with the brand split. UPN isn't exactly getting what was promised to them in the original agreement are they now? No Austin, no Rock, no Triple H, etc. I do see the argument of Austin not being anywhere near the wcw, but I was taking into account that Austin and Vince had planned his heel turn for WM 17. The heel turn would have coincided with Austin dumping the wwf for wcw. It sure would have made for a better explanation for his actions than what was done(and I did like Austin's turn in Texas). I agree there was no one to counter the heeldom of Austin like a Triple H or The Rock, but remember I stated Austin would turn on Vince and the wwf. This wouldn't exactly make him a full blown heel. He would be the tweener of '97 in the "new wcw" who reneged against the wwe establishment. Austin has stated that the full heel turn probably in hindsight wasn't a good idea, but he felt it was needed to freshen his character(and I agree with that sentiment of freshening the character). It can be argued that Austin could have transferred fans over as look how the audience was cheering Austin turning on The Rock. Austin has that kind of influence with his drawing powers. I do agree that the wwf would have a problem on the face side of things with Rock and Triple H absent from the show. The secret though would be the same thing we are all saying that the wwf was built with the perception of being the powerhouse and favourite. That would be in the wwf's favour and the loyalty aspect can't be denied since it had a lot to do with it surviving the onsalught of wcw during the losing streak in ratings.

 

I also see the argument of not bringing back the nWo, but I also felt that the nWo actually had more brand name power than wcw. I was taking into account that Vince had to tread water with rebuilding wcw from the purchase until the time he could get the big guns. That is where the real invasion would happen with the big dogs. With something of this magnitude you need to calculate things for the near future. There were rumours that the wwe were in talks with Goldberg and Bischoff for that same night of the ECW rebellion in Atlanta. Shane Mcmahon was in talks with Ric Flair in August apparently as well. You see all they needed to do was have a little patience with real effort and build back the company instead of panicking and pushing the Invasion angle to bring up the ratings.

 

The thing I'm seeing is that wcw was ran out of business, but people are forgettting they were still getting the best ratings on TNT. WCW fell through for Bischoff when the Time Warner executives no longer wanted wcw on its television stations.

[reign 0]

I'm not gonna try and analyze this from a business POV, but the invasion died for me the second Shane introduced Steph as owner of ECW

Ditto. That night was great...until that.

 

Shane McMahon finally turns heel as the WCW owner, laying a beatdown on Taker...kinda, and having DDP diamondcut Sara.

 

Then we have the ECW Reunion with Tommy Dreamer & Rob Van Dam running in from the crowd.

 

Then we have the ECW & WCW formation, which wasn't too bad.

 

Then Steph is the "owner". (toilet flushes)

Yeah but I think everybody will agree that Steph looked smokin that night in that skirt....

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Well one of them did, RVD was the most over guy in 2001 rivaling the Rock as a top babyface but like always WWE had to fuck that up too (purposely) because Rob wasn't from OVW.

They didn't push Rob because of him potatoing(legitimately busting people open as well) people on a weekly basis AND because they weren't fond of his spottyness......so in all fairness......your wrong.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Yeah but I think everybody will agree that Steph looked smokin that night in that skirt....

 

X

[cabbageboy 0]

I seriously think that if RVD doesn't bust some people open he would have gotten the title in late 2001, early 2002. He was pissing so many people off though that it was damn near impossible, despite how over he was.

[Crimson G 0]

Yeah but I think everybody will agree that Steph looked smokin that night in that skirt....

 

X

Cool, an X.

 

Wow, there sure are a lot of long posts in this thread.

 

<-----contributing nothing to the conversation since 2004.

[Guest GreatOne]

Sheesh, some people's hard-on for WCW and why Vince should have brought everyone in all at once instead of just one at a time is mind-fucking. Let me put it this way: You can counter a 300 pound gorilla with a 900 pounder. But a 900 pound gorilla with a 300 pounder? Nope.

 

And McMahon didn't have to convince anyone that WCW was garbage, they did that on their own. Fingerpoke of Doom anybody? 'Yeah Cactus Jack'll put butts in seats, now watch this GREATEST MAIN EVENT IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT!!!!!!'

 

Now the whole topic goes from 'it should have been WCW vs WWE' to 'WCW should have been their own separate brand? This the same company that's final edition of Thunder ended in a Dustin Rhodes/Jeff Jarrett burrito match or some shit? Ric Flair tossing a donkey's salad? Yeah god knows we need that 'for the business'. I swear all the stupid Raw and Smackdown angles (ce for maybe Chuckabilly, good thing Chuck Billy doesn't watch WWE) of the last couple years don't even touch that for stupidity.

 

Saying Booker T was on Rock's level at that time is like saying Shante 'Chaka' Carver was on Warren Sapp's.

[Guest Staravenger]

I'm not gonna try and analyze this from a business POV, but the invasion died for me the second Shane introduced Steph as owner of ECW

Ditto. That night was great...until that.

 

Shane McMahon finally turns heel as the WCW owner, laying a beatdown on Taker...kinda, and having DDP diamondcut Sara.

 

Then we have the ECW Reunion with Tommy Dreamer & Rob Van Dam running in from the crowd.

 

Then we have the ECW & WCW formation, which wasn't too bad.

 

Then Steph is the "owner". (toilet flushes)

Yeah but I think everybody will agree that Steph looked smokin that night in that skirt....

No argument here.

[JJMc 0]

Sheesh, some people's hard-on for WCW and why Vince should have brought everyone in all at once instead of just one at a time is mind-fucking. Let me put it this way: You can counter a 300 pound gorilla with a 900 pounder. But a 900 pound gorilla with a 300 pounder? Nope.

 

And McMahon didn't have to convince anyone that WCW was garbage, they did that on their own. Fingerpoke of Doom anybody? 'Yeah Cactus Jack'll put butts in seats, now watch this GREATEST MAIN EVENT IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT!!!!!!'

 

Now the whole topic goes from 'it should have been WCW vs WWE' to 'WCW should have been their own separate brand? This the same company that's final edition of Thunder ended in a Dustin Rhodes/Jeff Jarrett burrito match or some shit? Ric Flair tossing a donkey's salad? Yeah god knows we need that 'for the business'. I swear all the stupid Raw and Smackdown angles (ce for maybe Chuckabilly, good thing Chuck Billy doesn't watch WWE) of the last couple years don't even touch that for stupidity.

 

Saying Booker T was on Rock's level at that time is like saying Shante 'Chaka' Carver was on Warren Sapp's.

Wow, that actually made sense. cool!!

[Guest GreatOne]

I knew Chaka'd do it

[Slickster 0]

Exactly. I'm wondering if they couldn't just have had Shane come out on RAW in 6/01, say "I'm starting WCW (insert name of show and time here)" and heel Vince could be like "You're fucking dumb. I'm so sure that nobody will care about WCW, if ANY WWF stars want to leave and work for this guy, then go."

Would've needed some fancy booking to explain how Shane could steal Vince's Thursday night spot.

 

 

 

Remember, people: the company couldn't get any more TV time during the Invasion. They tried, but it turned out the XFL completely jinxed this.

WWF Excess.

 

That show was going to be WCW's show; in fact, that's why WWE trademarked 'WCW Saturday Nitro' (you can look it up). It was going to be on from 11-1am on TNN

 

In fact, the first edition of Nitro was first booked for May 9 in Trenton, NJ, then June 13 in Fairfax, VA, then it was never really brought up again (except as a possible replacement for SD! after the live shows in mid-August).

 

--------------

 

Oh, and Mike Awesome was NOT brought in post-Invasion; in fact, he was the first Alliance member to win a WWF title (Hardcore Title in MSG the night after KOTR).

[Guest Thrashist]

There were so many aspects wrong with the invasion.

 

1. People's expectations - This isn't mentioned much, but this is one of the top reasons. In people's minds, when they think about WCW vs WWF, they immediately think of taking WCW at its peak against WWF at its peak in some super clash of wrestling superstars. However, the way WCW was set up at that point made such an epic clash impossible. Furthermore, even if WWF did bring out the cash to hire all of the big names people wanted, they would all only be a shell of their former selves. No one realizes this. Which leads me too reason number two..

 

2. No WCW big names - To have a proper WCW invasion, you needed most of the following: Hogan, Goldberg, Sting, Hall, Nash, Flair, Bischoff. The *only* semi-decent names were the barely-established champ Booker T, who was treated like a midcarder, and DDP, who was not even part of the Invasion. I know people don't care for DDP, but he was a main eventer during WCW's peak, and to treat him as some midcard jobber to Undertaker was absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, the rest of the Alliance's roster was made up of the ultra-WWFer Austin, a number of WWF guys, and a dozen WCW midcarders no one has even heard of. There were not even people like Steiner, Mysterio, Savage, Piper, or any of the Radicals, had they stayed with WCW, to inject some proper heat into the feud. It was a pathetic group no one associates with WCW.

 

3. The McMahonizing of the Angle - From the start, it was introduced as a Shane vs Vince feud. Big mistake. And then when they FINALLY got something right with bringing in Heyman and ECW, they ruin it in the SAME EXACT EPISODE:

 

4. Stephanie McMahon, the most unhardcore person on the planet, was put in charge of ECW. Fuck that.

 

Now I'm getting sleepy so I'll cut it short...but I have to also mention the Booker T vs Buff Bagwell match as a symbol of the mediocrity that would soon come. And basically all of the WWF guys being booked over the WCW guys and an inability of Vince to realize that as soon as he signed on that dotted line, all of WCW was now WWF so it was not in his own business' best interests to favor one group over the other. Fuck I'm tired as fuck..

[Jobber of the Week 0]

WWF Excess.

No. That didn't start until after the Invasion PPV and everything got fucked up to hell. After Vince bought WCW but prior to pulling the trigger on the angle (during the period where Shane was talking about how WCW would be coming Real Soon Now), WWF asked Viacom for a timeslow for a show and was denied. After this, they considered giving WCW the Raw timeslot and this was quite widely reported out there, until it became obvious crowds were not going to approve of this roster. Then the WCW Raw idea was scrapped, and the Excess time slot appeared, after the Invasion had already started.

[The C Man 0]

I like the idea of Shane bringing in Bischoff. But I think the best way to do that would've been to have Bischoff then turn on Shane, cementing Bischoff and WCW's status as heels. Then you've got WCW as a real outsider with no McMahon's involved.

[Promoter 0]

Apart of the reason for this thread was to see how others might have come to a conclusion to creating two brands. Not really about having any kind of hard on for wcw per se. The main thing here is that Vince regardless of anything had plans to create two brands and have ended up with this smackdown and raw landscape. He ended up bringing in the big guns. In hindsight, with what the wwe ended up doing I think it's plausible they could have done the separation differently.

[Guest GreatOne]

Again I doubt they really lost any big business. WCW vs WWE was the Monday Night War. That was done WWE won, why would you need to do it all over again as part of an angle that only a few thousand people really wanna see anyhow?

 

the barely-established champ Booker T, who was treated like a midcarder

 

Last year everybody thought he should go over HHH and be the next big Raw headliner, some people think that RVD is a legit headliner outside of the ECW arena, so obviously it worked on some fronts.

 

And basically all of the WWF guys being booked over the WCW guys

 

And the problem is? It would have been like Jericho and Benoit running roughshod over everybody when they first came in (Jobbing Jericho to Chyna was 1455032 levels of stupid, but having Road Dogg in that spot wouldn't have been).

 

and an inability of Vince to realize that as soon as he signed on that dotted line, all of WCW was now WWF

 

That defeats the purpose of 'WCW vs WWE'. If McMahon had gone out of business and closed up shop the nanosecond Hall and Nash left after the "clique incident", you think the Outsiders would have gotten as over?

 

Bottom line: Nothing gained, nothing lost. Business is down yes, but that was bound to happen. They're still getting good ratings for RAW (hey remember when high 2s/low 3s were a great rating?). I doubt Vince McMahon is losing sleep because he didn't book a Booker/Austin "unification" match at InVasion.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

And basically all of the WWF guys being booked over the WCW guys

 

And the problem is?

The problem is they ended up messing up the whole angle just to appease guys like Bob Holly, Bill Gunn, and Bradshaw. In order to make the angle work, you'd have to book WCW guys to go over WWF guys. All the WWF guys don't have to job, but to make it work, some of the top guys wold have to do jobs which they would just get back anyway.

[SuperJerk 0]

The NWO might've worked if Triple H had turned heel on Hogan at Backlash and retained the Undisputed Championship with their interference.

 

I always wondered what the original planned storyline with HHH and the NWO would've been if Nash hadn't blown his quad.

 

 

Also, according to this, Nitro was doing in the 2-3 share Neilsen cable range for its last year. While not great, it shows that some people were watching. Imagine those folks added to the 4-5 share Raw was getting at the time. The Invasion could have been a winner.

[Slickster 0]

WWF Excess.

No. That didn't start until after the Invasion PPV and everything got fucked up to hell. After Vince bought WCW but prior to pulling the trigger on the angle (during the period where Shane was talking about how WCW would be coming Real Soon Now), WWF asked Viacom for a timeslow for a show and was denied. After this, they considered giving WCW the Raw timeslot and this was quite widely reported out there, until it became obvious crowds were not going to approve of this roster. Then the WCW Raw idea was scrapped, and the Excess time slot appeared, after the Invasion had already started.

Why were they planning to tape Nitro on the dates I mentioned and air it Saturday nights from 11-1 if that slot wasn't available? You can look in Google Groups (look for old Ross Reports) and see that that was their plan, so it's pretty clear that Excess was made to replace the WCW Nitro series that never happened.

[Promoter 0]

The NWO might've worked if Triple H had turned heel on Hogan at Backlash and retained the Undisputed Championship with their interference.

 

I always wondered what the original planned storyline with HHH and the NWO would've been if Nash hadn't blown his quad.

You know that wouldn't have been a bad idea. I always wondered how come no smarks actually praised Trips for jobbing the title to Hogan. I guess not losing to Hogan per se, but being a company guy in giving the Hulkamania re-birth story some legs. I still don't know how Trips didn't put up a stink about that. I guess even he can't stop the power of Hulkamania. Triple H in the nWo would have been good, but of course the wwe and Trips were delusional at the time thinking Trips was a good face.

[SuperJerk 0]

Triple H in the nWo would have been good, but of course the wwe and Trips were delusional at the time thinking Trips was a good face.

Reports at the time were saying that Vince waited until the last minute to decide who would win the match. There was a lot of talk leading up to the match (on air from Jericho) that Triple H wouldn't be as forgiving towards Hogan as The Rock had been the month before, but there was no pay off for the hints. After the match, Triple H said he had to fight the instinct to be heelish during the match.

[Kizzo 0]

When Russo came back to WWE as the creative director...then hours later demoted to just a writer...then a consultant.....and finally quiting after just one day......he suggested a few things that he wanted to do.....he was going to redo the Invasion and book like it was suppose to be booked...

 

On a side note...he was the one that suggested Bischoff be hired....and in a strange way....Bischoff was hired after Russo left

[Guest MikeSC]

When Russo came back to WWE as the creative director...then hours later demoted to just a writer...then a consultant.....and finally quiting after just one day......he suggested a few things that he wanted to do.....he was going to redo the Invasion and book like it was suppose to be booked...

 

On a side note...he was the one that suggested Bischoff be hired....and in a strange way....Bischoff was hired after Russo left

Keep in mind, Russo's BIG idea for WCW was that he knocked up Stacey Keibler.

-=Mike

[Guest JoeyStyles]

Well one of them did, RVD was the most over guy in 2001 rivaling the Rock as a top babyface but like always WWE had to fuck that up too (purposely) because Rob wasn't from OVW.

They didn't push Rob because of him potatoing(legitimately busting people open as well) people on a weekly basis AND because they weren't fond of his spottyness......so in all fairness......your wrong.

As far as I know, RVD didn't get the main event spot b/c:

He is not an OVW hoss,

HHH sees him as a threat to his spot and

He wasn't Vince's creation.

Him being stiff with others is a b.s. excuse because Lesnar was stiff as hell and he became champion, Ahmed Johnson was being groomed to be WWF champion and he was a stiff bastard but his injuries ended his WWF career.So you are wrong.