The Dark Knight Strikes Again

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I got 2 books of this from my library because it had Frank miller's name on it, but what in the name of all that is good and holy is going on here? I can't make heads or tails of anything here other than it looks like Batman did something very wrong. I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me out.

[JasonX 0]

I got 2 books of this from my library because it had Frank miller's name on it, but what in the name of all that is good and holy is going on here? I can't make heads or tails of anything here other than it looks like Batman did something very wrong. I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me out.

The popular running theory on DK 2 is that Miller was purposely writing a shitty story and producing shitty artwork for it after DC threw an obscene amount of money at him plus offered to pay his moving expenses for him to do the book.

 

Sort of a "It's supposed to suck because he's mocking the big event nature of DK 2 and the fact that DC gave him all that money to write it and is charging readers $8 an issue to buy it" type farce where everyone loses except for DC and Miller....

[Steviekick 0]

Either that, or Frank Miller went insane.

[Zorin Industries 0]

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/revi...29411278281.htm

 

I think this guy makes some fairly good points on DKSA

[Steviekick 0]

I did notice that commentary on the way news channels present themsevles.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

The first one... Dark Knight Returns rocks. It stuck to the Batman mythos, and used supporting characters well. DKSA breaks away from this.... spoilers here, but Batman kills. Without a concern or care (at least he allows many too). This is one big problem, along with many others: Making Luther the bad guy. In DKR, the "bad guy" was a corrupt society, now we have a bunch of classic cheesy supervillains. Also, the first one had an epic fight between Superman and Batman, this one makes Superman, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman look like weak bitches. Batman makes good points to Supes in DKR, in DKSA it's stupid--he tells Clark he wouldn't understand a gizmo he put in his ear, yet--I don't mean being clever here, for Batman would win--Clark knows more about tech than Batman, or should know enough to understand it, or he should sense an object in himself. Also, the first book had Batman as an underdog. Here, he has a GL that can move planets, and the Flash--he's not an underdog, he's the main force. Also, he watches a city die--Bruce would rather die than watch anyone die. Lots of random Silver Age References, like Hawk and Dove showing up as a gay couple (despite them being brothers...). Also, the whole Batman/Robin love angle and evil Robin kinda sucked. Wasting characters like Martian Manhunter sucked, etc. etc. Miller either had lost it, or did too much in here--as it still is a fun read, I like the Atom in here, but it's nowhere near the level of DKR. Also, Superman shouldn't have gone down so easy in the cave--the Flash and Atom's attacks were cool, and I LOVED the Flash's portrayal in this, as he was accurately the most powerful member of Bats' group--but dropping 50 (I think it was 50ish) tons of rock and Superman and having it hurt?!?!?!?! The Thing would laugh at this attack, Superman shouldn't even flinch.

 

And to Masked Man of Mystery, I'm a Manga/Anime/American stuff fan (though I'll admit I like American comics much better), but don't let one crappy American work get you down. Think of Anime--someone could see the wrong series and put off Anime as really anti-women or childish, the same is true of American comics. Check out stuff like Claremont era X-Men (Essential X-Men 3 or 4 or both are good for this, as is Essential Wolverine 1), or Morrison JLA, or Watchmen, or something good you enjoy. American comics are just as varied as Anime/Manga, both have good series and shit series, you just gotta find your groove. Also, liking Anime/Manga with it's huge energy throwing and speeding around, you may like some of Marvel's cosmic series or multiple Infinity War/Gauntlet, etc. crossovers. Also, the US Transformers comic was pretty cool as well, which might be up a Manga/Anime fan's sleeve--any comic where Bruce Springsteen can get a Transformer to love Rock and Roll has got to be great (though this comic did have some sketchy continuity at times, as an Autobot who wasn't hit in a battle would be out of it for 20 issues, and a Decepticon who was chopped in half or shot multiple times would be fine next issue, despite the Decepticon's having no medics--this was biggest in issue 24 where Megatron squeezed the tank guy of the army Con's group's head into mush, yet he was fine a few issues later....)

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

Oh, I read American stuff, just I got into it after I got into manga. I got something called Welcome Back Frank that was a decent story about Punisher. While I'm thinking of it, what would people reccomend for Punisher? Daredevil(is Underboss a multiple er, what is it called, trade paperback? book? It didn't look finished at the end) and Spiderman are probably my two favorite superheroes. That reminds me, in the Spiderman 2 movie, why does JJJ say Spiderman is the only one who can fight Doc Oc? I mean, I know its a Spiderman movie, but I persoanlly think Daredevil vs Doc Oc could be fun, or even Punisher, or any of the other half billion Marvel superheroes who live in NYC. Ya know? By the way, sorry for rambling.

[Vyce 0]

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/revi...29411278281.htm

 

I think this guy makes some fairly good points on DKSA

I think that guy gives Miller waaaay too much credit for DKSA.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

Oh, I read American stuff, just I got into it after I got into manga. I got something called Welcome Back Frank that was a decent story about Punisher. While I'm thinking of it, what would people reccomend for Punisher? Daredevil(is Underboss a multiple er, what is it called, trade paperback? book? It didn't look finished at the end) and Spiderman are probably my two favorite superheroes. That reminds me, in the Spiderman 2 movie, why does JJJ say Spiderman is the only one who can fight Doc Oc? I mean, I know its a Spiderman movie, but I persoanlly think Daredevil vs Doc Oc could be fun, or even Punisher, or any of the other half billion Marvel superheroes who live in NYC. Ya know? By the way, sorry for rambling.

The reason JJJ says that in Spidey 2, is in the Marvel movies it's supposed to be each movie self contained. So in Spidey's world there are no X-Men or Hulk or Punisher, etc. etc. Kinda sucks it's that way, as a Wolvie/Punisher or DD/Spidey movie might be fun. Also, if they could ever do X-Men/Spiderman, a long Nightcrawler vs Spiderman fight could be pretty cool.

 

Despite DKSA being weird, pick up Miller's run on Daredevil through trade paper backs and such, I'd also suggest the Kevin Smith tpb (forget the name, the one with him cradeling Karen Page on the front). For Spiderman, can't go wrong with Kraven's hunt and some of the Venom stuff and older stories. Essential books for Marvel are generally great and cheap for the amount of stuff you get.

 

Lastly, Trade Paperbacks aren't always complete stories anymore, espically since TPB's sell well, so Marvel is publishing for TPBs alot. Which, at least in my area at home makes sense, because the one comic shop really close is a SCARY SCARY PLACE--the people there make the Simpsons' comic book guy look like James Bond by comparison, but walking into a Barnes and Noble and buying a tpb doesn't feel as icky. That's why I personally think some comic book stores hurt the industry as most people like comics, but a lot of the stores are pretty nerdy spots. I know of one comic book shop that actually is trendy and cool and has a great crowd and crew that works there--and they sell music and old vinyl records as well, along with magazines and stuff, but this is more the exception than the rule it seems. Though of course comic book shops have nothing on the "Magic Card and D&D stores". Friend of mine and I were at an outlet mall/flea market joint looking at some old Baseball cards and walked into the next store to get to the store adjacent to that--another sports card store, but we passed through a room with 50 or so folks playing Magic and stuff..... it smelled worse than a high school locker room........

[Mecha Mummy 0]

I thought the SAME THING and went through the SAME PROCESS as you did. On Saturday I saw DKSA in the library and checked out the first part, and to some extent I thought it was solid. Flash's attack on Supes was really cool.

 

Then I read the second part and got confused

(though admittedly I enjoyed Plastic Man and Elongated Man bickering). Really confused. Things just sort of stopped making sense.

 

And EVIL DICK GRAYSON? What the FUCK was that? That didn't even begin to make sense. The last few pages was just like...

 

Evil Dick: Batman I love you!

Batman: *Starts acting like a loudmouthed abusive ex-boyfriend.*

Gosunkugi: WTF?

 

I could have tolerated it as a whole if it wasn't for that ending. But the existence of this is one of the reasons why I think Kingdom Come is better than Dark Knight Returns (also because DKR didn't keep pulling me back in and having me reread it like Kingcome Come has).

[Damaramu 0]

Oh, I read American stuff, just I got into it after I got into manga. I got something called Welcome Back Frank that was a decent story about Punisher. While I'm thinking of it, what would people reccomend for Punisher? Daredevil(is Underboss a multiple er, what is it called, trade paperback? book? It didn't look finished at the end) and Spiderman are probably my two favorite superheroes. That reminds me, in the Spiderman 2 movie, why does JJJ say Spiderman is the only one who can fight Doc Oc? I mean, I know its a Spiderman movie, but I persoanlly think Daredevil vs Doc Oc could be fun, or even Punisher, or any of the other half billion Marvel superheroes who live in NYC. Ya know? By the way, sorry for rambling.

The reason JJJ says that in Spidey 2, is in the Marvel movies it's supposed to be each movie self contained. So in Spidey's world there are no X-Men or Hulk or Punisher, etc. etc. Kinda sucks it's that way, as a Wolvie/Punisher or DD/Spidey movie might be fun. Also, if they could ever do X-Men/Spiderman, a long Nightcrawler vs Spiderman fight could be pretty cool.

 

Despite DKSA being weird, pick up Miller's run on Daredevil through trade paper backs and such, I'd also suggest the Kevin Smith tpb (forget the name, the one with him cradeling Karen Page on the front). For Spiderman, can't go wrong with Kraven's hunt and some of the Venom stuff and older stories. Essential books for Marvel are generally great and cheap for the amount of stuff you get.

 

Lastly, Trade Paperbacks aren't always complete stories anymore, espically since TPB's sell well, so Marvel is publishing for TPBs alot. Which, at least in my area at home makes sense, because the one comic shop really close is a SCARY SCARY PLACE--the people there make the Simpsons' comic book guy look like James Bond by comparison, but walking into a Barnes and Noble and buying a tpb doesn't feel as icky. That's why I personally think some comic book stores hurt the industry as most people like comics, but a lot of the stores are pretty nerdy spots. I know of one comic book shop that actually is trendy and cool and has a great crowd and crew that works there--and they sell music and old vinyl records as well, along with magazines and stuff, but this is more the exception than the rule it seems. Though of course comic book shops have nothing on the "Magic Card and D&D stores". Friend of mine and I were at an outlet mall/flea market joint looking at some old Baseball cards and walked into the next store to get to the store adjacent to that--another sports card store, but we passed through a room with 50 or so folks playing Magic and stuff..... it smelled worse than a high school locker room........

I don't think they're self contained because they make reference to Dr. Strange in Spidey 2.

And on top of that this kind of stuff happens in the comics a lot. One super hero will vanish and nobody will step up to take on his villains.

 

And what makes these stores nerdy and the others trendy and cool? Well first of all IMO trendy is definetly not cool. So that one goes out the window. Second of all why is it nerdy? Because they like comic books? Because it's a hobby to them? That's weak. And don't give me the "Oh well they're 25 year old balding men who live in there mother's basement and can't get a date b/c all they spend there money on is comic books!" That's such a god damn absurd stereotype that is so SO very rare that it makes me want to cry.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

And what makes these stores nerdy and the others trendy and cool? Well first of all IMO trendy is definetly not cool. So that one goes out the window. Second of all why is it nerdy? Because they like comic books? Because it's a hobby to them? That's weak. And don't give me the "Oh well they're 25 year old balding men who live in there mother's basement and can't get a date b/c all they spend there money on is comic books!" That's such a god damn absurd stereotype that is so SO very rare that it makes me want to cry.

Errrrr...... comics don't make one nerdy, I defintely still read them, nothing wrong with it. However with the comic book store comparison, I guess I kinda.... didn't express myself as well as I meant to there. To compare the "bad" comic book store to the "good" one, the bad one you walk in, the place is dark, the staff are all arrogant and cocky, they won't help anyone at all. You've got the stereotypical from the Simpsons 400 pound guy sitting there who thinks he's really witty and is an asshole, and a few suck ups to him. The guys who work here also REALLY can't be wrong and have to be right.

 

Mind you this is the only comic book store around back home--compare that to a place that's bright, well lit, has staff that will bend over backwards to help you, remebers EVERYONE by name, gives discounts if you buy a lot, goes out of their way to talk to you, etc. etc. It's not the fact that one is nerdy--it's more the fact one store is dark, messy, and the workers are asshole fanboys, and the other place is bright and inviting and has a great owner and staff.

[Guest SpiderFan]

Daredevil(is Underboss a multiple er, what is it called, trade paperback? book? It didn't look finished at the end)

Trades today generally reprint one story arc, but sometimes, certain plot points will span from one arc to the next. So, you do get an entire story in a trade paperback, but not everything is resolved right away.

[Vyce 0]

And what makes these stores nerdy and the others trendy and cool? Well first of all IMO trendy is definetly not cool. So that one goes out the window. Second of all why is it nerdy? Because they like comic books? Because it's a hobby to them? That's weak. And don't give me the "Oh well they're 25 year old balding men who live in there mother's basement and can't get a date b/c all they spend there money on is comic books!" That's such a god damn absurd stereotype that is so SO very rare that it makes me want to cry.

Errrrr...... comics don't make one nerdy, I defintely still read them, nothing wrong with it. However with the comic book store comparison, I guess I kinda.... didn't express myself as well as I meant to there. To compare the "bad" comic book store to the "good" one, the bad one you walk in, the place is dark, the staff are all arrogant and cocky, they won't help anyone at all. You've got the stereotypical from the Simpsons 400 pound guy sitting there who thinks he's really witty and is an asshole, and a few suck ups to him. The guys who work here also REALLY can't be wrong and have to be right.

 

Mind you this is the only comic book store around back home--compare that to a place that's bright, well lit, has staff that will bend over backwards to help you, remebers EVERYONE by name, gives discounts if you buy a lot, goes out of their way to talk to you, etc. etc. It's not the fact that one is nerdy--it's more the fact one store is dark, messy, and the workers are asshole fanboys, and the other place is bright and inviting and has a great owner and staff.

If you're a comics fan, it pays to try and find that one "good" comic store you can call your own. Mine is literally only about a mile from my house, and I've been going there for a few years now. I get a discount, I know everyone by name, and not only do they keep a hold on all of my titles but will usually recommend new books to me that they think I may be interested in.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Most comics stores I've been to give a discount for people who do Pull & Hold.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

And what makes these stores nerdy and the others trendy and cool? Well first of all IMO trendy is definetly not cool. So that one goes out the window. Second of all why is it nerdy? Because they like comic books? Because it's a hobby to them? That's weak. And don't give me the "Oh well they're 25 year old balding men who live in there mother's basement and can't get a date b/c all they spend there money on is comic books!" That's such a god damn absurd stereotype that is so SO very rare that it makes me want to cry.

Errrrr...... comics don't make one nerdy, I defintely still read them, nothing wrong with it. However with the comic book store comparison, I guess I kinda.... didn't express myself as well as I meant to there. To compare the "bad" comic book store to the "good" one, the bad one you walk in, the place is dark, the staff are all arrogant and cocky, they won't help anyone at all. You've got the stereotypical from the Simpsons 400 pound guy sitting there who thinks he's really witty and is an asshole, and a few suck ups to him. The guys who work here also REALLY can't be wrong and have to be right.

 

Mind you this is the only comic book store around back home--compare that to a place that's bright, well lit, has staff that will bend over backwards to help you, remebers EVERYONE by name, gives discounts if you buy a lot, goes out of their way to talk to you, etc. etc. It's not the fact that one is nerdy--it's more the fact one store is dark, messy, and the workers are asshole fanboys, and the other place is bright and inviting and has a great owner and staff.

If you're a comics fan, it pays to try and find that one "good" comic store you can call your own. Mine is literally only about a mile from my house, and I've been going there for a few years now. I get a discount, I know everyone by name, and not only do they keep a hold on all of my titles but will usually recommend new books to me that they think I may be interested in.

Yea, this is more what I meant--I've found a good comic store. The "bad" or nerdy store I spoke of I have honestly seen this happen.

 

Store is dark inside, the workers are all huddled around a table watching Teen Titans--kid comes in with a few comics he got at a flea market for a dollar each.

 

Kid: "Hey, I just got these and I was wondering if you could tell me if I got a good deal or how much they are worth or anything.... and I have some questions....."

 

There are 3 workers, a Woman who is nice but didn't talk much, and two guys, one of them is Scott Keith in real life--300 pounds and thinks he's the wittiest, sexist, funniest guy ever, and the other was really biting to the kid as well, it goes something like this,

 

Fat Worker: "My manager does that--I don't know"

 

Kid: "Can't you just tell me if they are good, I got them for a dollar each"

 

After much bickering, they finally look them over and then tell the kid, these two are good, these 5 aren't--then they bitch that the kid made them miss a minute of Teen Titans (Which was a tape they had made btw--so they could just rewind). Finally the kid leaves--now do you think that kid will come back? No--it's not that these guys are nerdy or anything, it's that they think they are Conan O'Brien mixed with James Bond and are assholes. Compare that to the "trendy" comic book store:

 

Mom comes in with kids: "Yes.... my son wants to read some comics, what are good ones for kids?"

 

The clerk/owner comes over, tells her various comics that are good for kids, what the characters are, what cartoons he watches, etc. etc. and gives her good choices and shows her the insides, the art, the violence, etc. She thanks him, picks some up and browses CDs for a while then leaves, all the while the owner helps her and her kids and is super polite and nice. Compare that to the first store, this guy probably won a customer, the first store made a kid feel like shit for 10 minutes because he had the "nerve" to ask a comic book store worker--while he wasn't even working--how much a comic was worth.

 

But back to Dark Knight Strikes Again--it does somewhat make DKR a little less epic for some, much like the new Star Wars or Matrixes have done. It has it's moments, but again there is a lot of bad stuff. Like making Superman turn from the corporate shill to just a big, dumb, weak idiot. Also, the world seems nothing like the world from DKR, nothing at all. Also Kingdom Come does rock as well.... to make a somewhat goofy music analogy, Dark Knight Returns gives me more of a Bob Dylanish feel--a shitty world with tons of wrong and injustice that one man is trying to overcome, whereas Kingdom Come gives me more of a Bruce Springsteen feel--a world that's lost all it's heroes and is in the dumps, but deep down has that glimmer of hope that everything will be better somehow. And--both books have great Superman/Batman scenes and writing--I still think the greatest Superman moment EVER is in Kingdom Come when he returns from his exile and saves the railcar over the river--that's just an AMAZING scene, perfectly drawn (It's Ross--duh), perfectly written, with Superman as a returning force of nature and the greatest hero ever, and shows that not everything is right as when gazed at by the preacher, Superman appears in the "penance" like pose engulfed in the flames.

[Zorin Industries 0]

My favourit scene from Kingdom Come would have to be the epilogue in the TPB, with WW, Supes and Batman in Planet Krypton, it just says alot about all 3 characters. Plus old age, bad temepered Bruce Wayne is always gold.

[Highland 0]

I have DKSA and it's atrocious.

I could see Batman being opposed to any sort of totalitarian regime, but he is by no means an anarchist or terrorist, which is how he is portrayed in this series. Also, Superman would never capitulate to the likes of Luthor or his most hated nemesis, Brainiac, though I do like how Superman finally said fuck this shit and started acting like the all powerful god that he is towards the end.

 

Shoddy story, atrocious artwork and far too many plot holes.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

The popular running theory on DK 2 is that Miller was purposely writing a shitty story and producing shitty artwork for it after DC threw an obscene amount of money at him plus offered to pay his moving expenses for him to do the book.

 

Sort of a "It's supposed to suck because he's mocking the big event nature of DK 2 and the fact that DC gave him all that money to write it and is charging readers $8 an issue to buy it" type farce where everyone loses except for DC and Miller....

I've heard this theory too... but I don't buy it. If you look at the PLOT of the story (shitty horrible execution aside), it looks like a pretty good yarn. The basic framework, him going around freeing/recruiting the heroes, going head up against Luthor's regime. If you'd described this plot to me beforehand I'd have been like "COOL! Bring this shit on I want to read it"... and if you read Frank Miller interviews for DKSA, he keeps saying he wants to create a good old-fashioned action yarn, the basic framework of his story fits this. there's nothing to indicate he had some other weird motive. hell, Issue 1, while dissapointing, had some promise for me. Then it all went to hell. To make a long story short (too late ) I simply don't buy that Miller DELIBERATLY wrote it to be horrible to make some kind of statement.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I personally just get the comics out of my library, but I've gotten some manga at a local B. Dalton whihc is apparently part of Barnes And Noble, so I might get some stuff there, like if they have some Miller Daredevil or something. There's also a comic shop where I go for Free Comic Book Day which I may go to a bit more often as they seem pretty cool. By the way, is there a conclusion to the story in Underboss, and when the heck did the Kingpin go blind? Doesn't making Kingpin blind sort of ruin what Kingpin was supposed to be?

[Guest SpiderFan]

By the way, is there a conclusion to the story in Underboss

Somewhat. The main story is brought to a conclusion, but a subplot continues into the next arc (which is available in the trade 'Out')

 

Don't let that stop you from picking this up though. Underboss is a good read, and I recommend all of Bendis' run on DD.

[Jingus 0]

About DKSA, I always felt that it had a lot in common plotwise with Kingdom Come, almost as if Miller had written it as a remake or rebuke to that book. (Can't you see it: "Hey, I started this whole "superheroes getting old in the future" crap!") There's just too many little plot points that both stories share: like Superman and Wonder Woman being lovers and having a kid together, Lex Luthor being basically the main villain, a relatively obscure character like Captain Marvel playing a key part in the story, a new generation of rogue young superheroes who are seen as public menaces by the government, etc etc etc. That's a whole lotta copied ideas for them to all be coincedental.

 

And even though I'm one of the few admitted fans of the series, even I will say that the artwork sucked. My god, but this was an so-ugly-it's-hard-to-read monstrosity.