The OAO Raw Thread - 7/26/04 - 60 Minute Iron Man

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Rock was so over at that point that it would have taken a lot to make him lose heat and before that in his feuds with HHH he was a heel so he probably wouldn't get many clean wins.

 

There's only so much wrestlers can do themselves to get over. The wrestlers can't go out and buck the writers/bookers by doing stuff they weren't supposed to do or they'd get in trouble. If the writers/bookers are putting them in crap it's gonna hinder them somewhat.

 

Rock and Austin may have made the changes that made their characters great, but if the writers still put them in crap storylines it would have had an effect.

[Promoter 0]

I think Rock did lose his heat in 2000 with the way he was booked. It showed a year to 2 years later with his other programs. In some ways, he had a choker label on him. That is a whole other topic though. Speaking of Rock there was someone who posted about where Benoit's title situation would lead for the big picture and I think you guys have answered it. I think Orton might have been chosen as the "evolution" of Triple H(takeover group) and The Rock(superior 3rd generation superstar storyline will be brought up). There is a reason why Triple H has not defeated Chris Benoit for the title, but Orton will(if rumours are true).

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Let's see, two weeks ago RAW ends with an Evolution 4-on-1 beatdown of Eugene. what do you think? What, a Eugene post-match attack to get back his heat and set up the match? Or the typical 3 on 1 beatdown happens after the match?

 

You didn't even come close to answering or countering my point. Since it's obvious you _can't_ make an on-topic rebuttal, I'll move on to your red herring. Eugene could have gotten his revenge next week when a down-and-beaten HHH hits rock bottom. HHH sees Orton become #1 contender, Benoit is better than him, and a retard has his number. That all could be summed up in 2 segments and he wouldn't be the focus of the show and Benoit/Orton could because Benoit is the champ - he "beat" HHH - so he should be more important to the storyline. See what I did? I responded to your distraction, countered it effectively, and brought it all back to my original point. Me = Good at this. You = Bad at this.

 

And guess what, he ALREADY LOST.

 

....In a match/feud that very few will remember, let alone remember in a good light. And guess what? You continue to airball on my points. Either actually respond to my points or just stop responding cause you're wasting my time.

 

and I'm not the one crying like a little bitch here either. Can I get you a tampon?

 

No, you can get me some intelligent conversation. Wait, sorry, you can't.

 

And we're talking Wrestlemania matches in all three, as opposed to RAW.

 

They were the ones that came to me at the time, which is the whole point of my, well, point. They were memorable. Had they had any "funny business" in them, I doubt they would have been as successful. Hell, lemme do you a solid - Savage/Steamboat from WM 3 - the same card as Hogan/Andre - had interference and it is still regarded in a special light. That's an actual counter-point. Shit, this is a one-man debate. I can take your position better than you can, even if I completely disagree with it.

 

And what 'inaction' would that be?

 

Inaction - ie: doing nothing with him. Rather than having him in multiple segments and be the focus of the show, they have him in a reduced role. Sure, that "saves" Benoit from acting and potentially looking like a goof in silly segments, but it makes him look irrelevant as well. The champion should never be irrelvant - so how does that make Benoit look as champion?

 

 

Actually if you wanna go there it was Eugene jumping up and down and mocking him and HHH looking like a total bitch. But hey as long as you're on TV!

 

HHH has looked like a total bitch before - it's nothing new. It has happened many times before and it will happen many times after. With Scott Steiner and those retarded "challenges" HHH looked very silly. In-the-end, however, it will be Eugene that'll look like the bitch when he's wrestling on Heat and HHH is still main eventing - much like Steiner was. HHH's best attribute is not his promos or ring work, it's knowing his characters limits and knowing how to make wins and losses irrelevant (the key is -much like what you have done throughout this discusssion- to divert attention.) He lost to Dvon and Test before and that did nothing for them and did nothing to hurt him - it was a calculated risk. I don't like the guy, but I recognize his skill in doing so much while actually doing nothing-at-all; quite masterful.

 

Yeah I know, how dare a World Champion in WWE actually, gasp, wrestle? perish the thought!

 

HHH didn't wrestle close to the same schedule as Benoit does when he was champ. I perish the thought of the World Champion being the top star on house shows only; infront of 2000 fans rather than 2 million.

 

*snip*

 

BTW are you supposed to be posing as a HHH or a Benoit fanboy (I'd say Democrat with all your errant bitching but I'll save it for CE) here? Can't be Benoit with all the shots you've taken at him, can't be HHH with all your whiny complaints of him getting TV time.

 

Benoit is in my top 5 favourite wrestlers and I think HHH is hilarious. I'm like 75% fanboy of Benoit, because I'll overlook something from him most of the time, but that 25% -like Vengeance 03- I can't. That was a bad match and Benoit's spotty nature got the best of him. HHH is a smark, his comments like (when a mic breaks) "Goldberg must have made this mic, cause it doesn't work well either" gets a big pop from me and when he said "I'm gonna kill him!" (about Eugene), that was one of my favourite moments of the year. I don't see myself as a HHHater, because I don't hate HHH - I just think he has control over his storylines (and others' if he chooses) and uses that control in a way that benefits him only. When circumstances like that arises, I call em the way I see em. It just happens to happen a lot, so it appears that I hate a guy who I'd jump at the chance to discuss wrestling with. To people who don't see him in that light, it certainly appears that I hate him because they -usually HHH fans- can't see the intricaces of his politiking, and tend to defend him on it. Which is ironic, cause you'd think a HHH fan would notice it more and be proud that one of their favourite wrestlers has pull.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Iggy

 

That's a good point, in totally disproving what RRR was saying.

 

No, it's a horrible point that doesn't "totally disprove" anything that I've said. I gave an example of what would "disprove" my point in Savage/Steamboat, and even then it doesn't "totally disprove" it because the majority of memorable matches still have clean and conclusive finishes, which is part of the reason why they're memorable in the first place.

 

If you compare it to the Austin/Hart feud, they both have a decisive winner at WM. Benoit made HHH submit clean in the middle of the ring (even if HBK was involved in the match), and Hart made Austin submit clean in the middle of the ring (even if Austin did pass out from the pain instead of tapping).

 

_This_ is a pretty good point. BUT, you're missing the second half of _my_ point, though. HHH/Shawn/Benoit wasn't conclusive of anything besides "when HHH/Shawn/Benoit wrestle in the same ring, Benoit wins". It didn't answer each individual question which is _much_ more important because 1 on 1 is the purist of competition.

 

They continued feuding after the Mania match, and Austin being better on the mic got more time to speak, even if Bret was still regarded as the better wrestler. The only real difference was that since Austin was the less established star at the time, he actually got a victory as the feud progressed (by DQ at Revenge of the Taker), and he ended up getting credit for taking Bret out.

 

The finish concluded Hart as a face and Austin as a heel and started a whole new era. The question of that match was clearly answered given the finish - Austin would never tap, so the hitmans victory is hollow. Hart became Austin in that match and betrayed his virtuous beliefs - the penalty for that betrayal is the hollow victory and a crowd turning. Austin stayed true to himself, he never tapped, and the reward was respect and admiration of the fans. The feud continued, but it was forever changed. My whole problem with DQ finishes is that it doesn't really change anything.

 

Meanwhile, since Benoit is less established in this feud, Trips has been doing everything he can to put Benoit over, even if it means that he doesn't get a token victory to protect his heat.

 

HHH hasn't been doing everything - he hasn't stepped down from the top position for Benoit - which is the INTEGRAL part of losing the title. He can do all the jobs in the world, as long as those jobs don't mean anything, it doesn't do anything for Benoit.

[what 0]

at the above posts from RRR.

 

Some people will just never be happy.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

What

 

It sounds like you're making excuses for Benoit ahead of time. So after his reign is over, you can say "oh it wasn't Benoit's fault he was a weak champion, it was Triple H's!" even though Triple H lost to Benoit in 4 matches and tapped out three times to him.

 

Dude, I've been "making excuses" for Benoit since December 2003 - before he even had a shot at the title, let alone the title itself. I fear(ed) people calling Benoit a failure as champion, because I believe that he could be a great champion. There are groups of people who have said in the past that Benoit would either never be champion or be a bad champion because he lacked the character, charisma, and promo skilled needed for the position. I think his character is strong, that his charisma is unique, and that his promos are good enough to carry the load. Does that mean he's the Rock? No. He doesn't have to be - he can be Chris Benoit. The WWE, however, isn't giving him a real chance at becoming a great champ - to live up to that potential. They "protect" him by not giving him those bigtime promos, or putting the focus on him where his personality and character would have to sustain fan interest. In that way, they've set him up for mediocrity. He really hasn't done anything noteworthy as champ - and anything he has done has been related to HHH and HHH has been the more important figure.

 

What did those 4 losses and 3 tap outs do for Benoit, anyways? What was their impact? You can list off all the shit Benoit has done to HHH till you're blue in the hands, until you explain how they have benefited Benoit they don't hold any significance. Has Benoit been getting a better reception? I don't think so. I think he was better received vs. Angle and Lesnar. He doesn't get "the superstar pop" because he isn't treated like a superstar.

[BHK 0]

I like Benoit, and I was there for the entire Iron man match, but this doesn't touch Hart/Austin. That angle(s) and series of matches was the greatest stroytelling I've ever seen in a North American ring.

 

Rudo you have some very valid points and arguments, but sometimes I think you're seeing the tress instead of the forest. Benoit/Triple H isn't Flair/Steamboat or Hart/Austin, it has holes. That doesn't mean it's not a fun feud with some decent storytelling, I mean, it's HARD for me to be unhappy with the booking of Benoit since December.

 

On the other hand, as I said, all of your complaints are totally valid. If you'd rather have your perfect feud with an excellent product, then that doesn't bother me at all. I'm personally just enjoying Benoit's reign for what it is.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Wow this thread will still be going by the time the next RAW rolls around.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You know what's funny? Both Kane and Randy Orton -The only two challengers outside HHH/HBK- became #1 contenders through battle royales.

[Guest wildpegasus]

You know what's funny? Both Kane and Randy Orton -The only two challengers outside HHH/HBK- became #1 contenders through battle royales.

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Very much so.

 

1. The WWE writing team obviously hasn't been paying attention to Benoit's reign as they've repeated an idea (and not just a small detail either).

 

2. The gap between Main Event and Midcard is huge. There should have been someone ready for that spot to make a smooth transition between the end of one feud and the beginning of another for Benoit (in both cases). HHH had/has his guys all set up nicely for him to face, but Benoit doesn't. He gets something that is very rushed... meanwhile the long-brewing HHH/Eugene feud rages on for its blowoff. Sound familiar? T

 

3. This hurts everyone on the roster. They need to create a better system of developing main event talent because Battle Royales are not sufficient. They need to get organized and map it all out. Here are the guys who they want in the scene in 6 weeks, 12 weeks, 6 months, 12 months. 1 guys in 6 weeks (month and a half), 2 guys in 12 (3 months), 4 guys in 6 months, 8 guys in 12 months (the longer the time period, the greater the risk. The shorter the time period, the harder the push). That's a detailed system, but I bet its better than the "Let's see who HHH wants to face next" one they have had going for the past 2 years.

[BHK 0]

Agreed. However, that would require long term planning, and the bookers actually booking things.....ahead of itme.

 

.....

 

you DO realize you're talking about the WWE writers and bookers, right?

[iggymcfly 0]

The gap between Main Event and Midcard is huge.  There should have been someone ready for that spot to make a smooth transition between the end of one feud and the beginning of another for Benoit (in both cases).  HHH had/has his guys all set up nicely for him to face, but Benoit doesn't.  He gets something that is very rushed... meanwhile the long-brewing HHH/Eugene feud rages on for its blowoff.  Sound familiar?

It's very true that they should have set up opponents for Benoit better, and the two 20-man battle royals were really weak. It works fine once a year at the Rumble, but when you use it to determine every title shot, it just negates the importance of all the other matches they use in between. I really think that the reason just put the Battle Royal on before the Iron Man match with no buildup was that they were hoping no one would notice they'd just done it two months ago.

 

However, being that desperate for heels to face Benoit is less a HHH/Benoit issue than a face/heel issue. The WWE continually emasculates all their heels, rarely if ever letting them get clean wins over the faces. I think they do this because they're hoping to happen on the next "big star" to carry the company, but they really just bring the whole product down.

 

Back when the WWF was at its heyday, you'd always have at least a couple heels that would win cleanly much more often than they would lose. Kane, Undertaker, and HHH all played the monster heel role when the company was at it's peak. Even in recent times, you'd usually get one as Brock and Angle have both had runs of blowing through the roster.

 

Now, you get a clean win out of Evolution or La Res once in a blue moon, and the rest of the time, the heels are cheating or losing every match. The WWE has a serious dearth of credible heels, and they're really not making any attempts to fix it.

[what 0]

You know what's funny? Both Kane and Randy Orton -The only two challengers outside HHH/HBK- became #1 contenders through battle royales.

The only reason they've done the battle royals was to lengthen the Triple H/Benoit feud.

[what 0]

The WWE has a serious dearth of credible heels, and they're really not making any attempts to fix it.

Raw: Christian, Triple H, Orton, Batista

 

Smackdown: Angle, Bradshaw, Big Show, Booker T

 

There are plenty of credible heels

[Guest Brian]

Christian's injured, right? The others in the RAW group are all in the same stable, which once again proves the laziness of the writers.

[King Cucaracha 0]

1. The WWE writing team obviously hasn't been paying attention to Benoit's reign as they've repeated an idea (and not just a small detail either).

They had one hour to showcase as many of the roster as possible. Obviously, a battle royal was a better idea than two singles matches to do that. Plus the battle royal wins puts over Orton as the 'lucky' challenger and by-passes the Triple H/Orton arguements over who's the leader of Evolution.

 

The Kane one was lazy booking, yes. This one actually had reasons for happening rather than 'hey, the battle royal worked last time, let's do it again'.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

They rushed themselves into it KC - how they treat the challengers reflects how they look at the champion, and with Orton such a quick rise will only hurt Benoit when/if he loses. They could have had time to incorporate Orton into the scene but they chose to take the easy way - because, quite frankly, Benoit isn't worth the effort. Infact, the only thing Orton has done recently to hint at a ME slot was speaking out against HHH. So I guess they _have_ been focusing on long-term feuds; it just happens that this supposed "god push" the WWE has been doing for Benoit ain't it.

[what 0]

They rushed themselves into it KC - how they treat the challengers reflects how they look at the champion, and with Orton such a quick rise will only hurt Benoit when/if he loses. They could have had time to incorporate Orton into the scene but they chose to take the easy way - because, quite frankly, Benoit isn't worth the effort. Infact, the only thing Orton has done recently to hint at a ME slot was speaking out against HHH. So I guess they _have_ been focusing on long-term feuds; it just happens that this supposed "god push" the WWE has been doing for Benoit ain't it.

If Orton beating everybody except for Edge didn't establish him as a force on Raw, I don't know what will. It's not like Benoit's going to be losing to some jobber. Christ.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Edge was Ortons last opponent, so Orton lost his last feud. He isn't going into the Benoit feud as strong as he should be. After he wins, however, he'll be going into a HHH feud pretty darn strong.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Orton'll likely cheat to win though. And if that's the case, at the end of it, Benoit will look no worse than you're saying Triple H does for losing with Eugene's assistance.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You missed the point -and what I've been writing about for a few pages now- of HHH's "loss". HHH didn't "lose" anything because of that loss - he still maintains the focus of the show and his spot on the card. He is still the central figure of RAW. If Benoit loses and drops down the card (as if he was "up" it to begin with..) to put over more guys for HHH, then the loss has significance. If Benoit loses but the ending shot is of him being angry and JR going on about "Oh there will be hell to pay tomorrow night cause Benoit is mad!" and the next night is focused mainly on Benoit plotting revenge on Orton, _then_ you can make a comparison. More likely, though, is the next night on RAW you'll see HHH "dealing" with Orton-as-champ and Benoit'll be stuck in a tag match against HHH/Orton where he'll -once again and as always- be the sidestory.

[snuffbox 0]

Are you children still crying about HHH the Boogeyman?

 

It was a good match, with interference, which has been a wrestling staple(especially on tv) for DECADES...

 

Let It Be.

[Gert T 0]

I still thought they should have had a six man tag two weeks before the Ironman match with Orton getting the win for Evolution by pinning Benoit, then they could have played that up after last week's match leading into Summer Slam.

 

While I don't mind the battle royal from the standpoint of getting people on due to the time constraints, and it appeared it may have furthered one storyline (Edge-Jericho), it is lazy booking for a No. 1 contender.

[Guest GreatOne]

I think they had a crappy gimmick for Rudo once, it was called loser wears a diaper, THAT's where I've seen him before!

 

BTW how can one accuse Benoit of 'not being able to beat HHH cleanly' and yet say Orton lost to Edge when his means of victory were 'just as nefarious'?

 

Only argument I have with Orton being right here right now is that it's a bit too soon, and this is someone that was on my shitlist after that mess tag match a few weeks back (Ortista vs Y2Edge). But other than that, nope.

[Guest GreatOne]

Rock and Austin may have made the changes that made their characters great, but if the writers still put them in crap storylines it would have had an effect.

Uh let's go over Rock's booking in 99-WM2000 shall we?

 

Beat the hell out of Foley for the belt, yet lost it back to him just a couple days later and needed the Big Slow to help him win it back.

 

Played Jericho to Austin's HHH with the exception of shoveling the McMahon dog's crap and did throw him in the river.

 

Yet 'still walked out the people's champ!'. That's a testament to The Rock getting over and STAYING over. So yes crap booking is just an excuse.

 

Then...........

 

Put an unover at the time HHH over in two of three PPVs.

 

Billy Gunn, Bossman/Albert, Al Snow, Big Slow, jobbed to HHH AGAIN at Mania.

 

So yes it had an effect somewhat but Rock staying over was a testament to him AND HIM ONLY. Besides we got a bunch of classic promos out of the deal--and people probably remember those more than the actual losses (and to anyone who wants to tie this in with HHH first off Rock wasn't all over the show and second I FARTED is a little less electrifying than what the Rock had to say at the time).

 

On the other side we have former smark darling Test who was put in a great storyline (pre-HHH) and had a chance for the ultimate revenge, instead he comes out playing I, ROBOT (Tri-ple-H-take-Steph-a-nie-ME-MAD!)

 

So yes it is the performers who determine how far they go in the end.

[Dark Age 0]

I think they had a crappy gimmick for Rudo once, it was called loser wears a diaper, THAT's where I've seen him before!

HAHAHAHAHA.

 

You are SO funny. It's also funny that you don't have any argument against RRR's points, and just resort to name calling. You lose.

[Guest GreatOne]

I think they had a crappy gimmick for Rudo once, it was called loser wears a diaper, THAT's where I've seen him before!

HAHAHAHAHA.

 

You are SO funny. It's also funny that you don't have any argument against RRR's points, and just resort to name calling. You lose.

If you call those POINTS that he was making I'm afraid I can't help you. Usually points to me don't consist of endless bitching and whining.

 

What do you mean I lose? That mean I'm not your friend? Awwwwwwwwwwww. I think I'll live.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

I missed Raw this week and still haven't seen the Iron Man Match.

 

Anyone know where I can download it or the entire show?

 

I REALLY want to see it.

 

[what 0]

You missed the point -and what I've been writing about for a few pages now- of HHH's "loss". HHH didn't "lose" anything because of that loss - he still maintains the focus of the show and his spot on the card. He is still the central figure of RAW. If Benoit loses and drops down the card (as if he was "up" it to begin with..) to put over more guys for HHH, then the loss has significance. If Benoit loses but the ending shot is of him being angry and JR going on about "Oh there will be hell to pay tomorrow night cause Benoit is mad!" and the next night is focused mainly on Benoit plotting revenge on Orton, _then_ you can make a comparison. More likely, though, is the next night on RAW you'll see HHH "dealing" with Orton-as-champ and Benoit'll be stuck in a tag match against HHH/Orton where he'll -once again and as always- be the sidestory.

Once again, you can't make Benoit the center of a show because he has no charisma. Benoit isn't as over as HHH. Sure, you can blame it on the writers and HHH holding everyone down but Benoit just has no charisma.