Guest INXS Report post Posted October 5, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3715980.stm A book published in France says the US regularly monitored French President Jacques Chirac's phone calls. The book, which charts the breakdown of the leaders' relationship in the run-up to the Iraq war, says several sources reported the surveillance. The US told a senior French military official the French-US relationship at a personal level was "irreparable". The book, Chirac contre Bush - l'autre guerre (Chirac versus Bush - the other war), comes out on Wednesday. The two leaders were at loggerheads over the war in Iraq, which culminated with Mr Chirac pledging to use his UN veto against the war. "The relationship between your president and ours is irreparable on the personal level. You have to understand that President Bush knows exactly what President Chirac thinks of him," a US official is reported as telling a senior French military official in the book by journalists Henri Vernet and Thomas Cantaloube. Surveillance was possible because Mr Chirac rarely uses secure phone lines, except in scheduled calls to world leaders, Mr Vernet told BBC News Online. Mr Chirac and the then French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin led a very small team inside the Elysee palace which made decisions on France's strategy on Iraq, Mr Vernet says. They were aware their policy was popular with French public opinion and that as such there were "no moderating elements" inside the team, according to an Elysee source close to the team, Mr Vernet says. The book's two authors, who are journalists based in Paris and Washington for Le Parisien newspaper, investigated the US-France relationship for a year as the Iraq crisis unravelled, speaking to various military and security sources. UN bug claims The book lends further credence to reports that the UN is routinely bugged by larger powers to monitor diplomatic conversations. In the run-up to the Security Council sessions on Iraq in early 2003, the French and members of other European delegations had to meet in the German mission's anti-bugging glass cage to avoid their conversations being monitored, Mr Vernet says. In the early 1980s, Jeane Kirkpatrick, the then US Ambassador to the UN, warned her French counterpart through sign language that Washington was listening in, Mr Vernet says. Earlier this year, a former UK government minister, Clare Short, said the British had spied on UN Secretary General Kofi Annan at the UN's headquarters in New York in the run-up to the Iraq war. I appreciate that bugging the leaders of other, hostile nations may be acceptable such as maybe Korea or Iran but France? They are a western democracy and depsite their misgivings regarding Bush's bungled and illegal invasion of Iraq, are allies to the UK and the USA. The only reasons I can think of why the US would want to listen in on Chirac's calls are either to smear France for not joining in the war and opposing it or for using any info to blackmail Chirac into backing the war. It's pretty scary when you think about it - what the HELL do the US have on Tony Blair?! They must have something on him for Blair to make up a dossier on Iraq in an attempt to justify the war. Of course, it's the intelligence agencies at fault here -it's not like the Bush administration would sanction the bugging of President Chirac is it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I appreciate that bugging the leaders of other, hostile nations may be acceptable such as maybe Korea or Iran but France? They are a western democracy and depsite their misgivings regarding Bush's bungled and illegal invasion of Iraq, are allies to the UK and the USA. No, they're not our allies. Never were our allies, aren't our allies, never will be our allies. Let's go ahead and get THAT straight. The only reasons I can think of why the US would want to listen in on Chirac's calls are either to smear France for not joining in the war and opposing it or for using any info to blackmail Chirac into backing the war. Or they just want to know who France will surrender to next. It's handy to keep on top of such info. It's pretty scary when you think about it - what the HELL do the US have on Tony Blair?! They must have something on him for Blair to make up a dossier on Iraq in an attempt to justify the war. Of course, it's the intelligence agencies at fault here -it's not like the Bush administration would sanction the bugging of President Chirac is it? Quite frankly, I wouldn't care WHAT they did to Chirac. There is nothing France has that we need as it is. And, again, stop saying things. You make the left look like idiots. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest INXS Report post Posted October 5, 2004 Uh..i'm not "the left". My views are actually pretty right leaning regarding many issues - it's mainly the stuff in the middle east that gets my goat. Uh, the French ARE considered allies such as the Germans are, the Spanish..looks like you bought into that anti French smear campaign. FREEDOM FRIES all round eh Mike? There's one thing that France has that you need - a country, although mainly a government, that isn't at least disliked if not hated by a LOT of people world over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 5, 2004 Uh..i'm not "the left". My views are actually pretty right leaning regarding many issues - it's mainly the stuff in the middle east that gets my goat. BWA HA HA HA HA HA! It's funny because you actually believe it. Uh, the French ARE considered allies such as the Germans are, the Spanish..looks like you bought into that anti French smear campaign. FREEDOM FRIES all round eh Mike? I look at the ACTUAL history, and ACTUAL history of the French is an incredibly bad one. They have been a thorn in the side of the US for years and, quite frankly, we should've liberated them from the Nazis dead last. I mean, they WANTED to be a part of Germany do badly... There's one thing that France has that you need - a country, although mainly a government, that isn't at least disliked if not hated by a LOT of people world over. Well, when you're willing to be bribed by every tinpot dictator on Earth, you're not likely to ruffle feathers. I'd rather be a country that has done some good for the world at some point in our history. -=Mike ...We made a HUGE mistake protecting France from the USSR... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 5, 2004 Um, when the fuck in the last 200 years have the French been our allies? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CheesalaIsGood 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I seem to remember they gave us some kind of gift awhile back. A statue or something? Oh sure it WAS a long time ago if you wanna split hairs.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I seem to remember they gave us some kind of gift awhile back. A statue or something? Oh sure it WAS a long time ago if you wanna split hairs.... Doesn't begin to make up to their blatant treachery from the BEGINNING OF OUR COUNTRY to the present day. And, their gift, while nice --- doesn't COMPARE to what we did for those fools. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CheesalaIsGood 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2004 Hey, I heard Fox News said John Kerry was french!!! Bug his phone too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoCalMike 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2004 BWA HA HA HA HA HA! It's funny because you actually believe it. kind of like the pic in your signature? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 5, 2004 BWA HA HA HA HA HA! It's funny because you actually believe it. kind of like the pic in your signature? What does that pic offend you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justice 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I seem to remember they gave us some kind of gift awhile back. A statue or something? Oh sure it WAS a long time ago if you wanna split hairs.... Hm... I dunno, anyone remember something called the Marshall Plan? I could have sworn it involved rebuilding France or something. Oh well. I guess a statue is obviously so much better than, well, being saved from occupation twice and having your country rebuilt twice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CheesalaIsGood 0 Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I seem to remember they gave us some kind of gift awhile back. A statue or something? Oh sure it WAS a long time ago if you wanna split hairs.... Hm... I dunno, anyone remember something called the Marshall Plan? I could have sworn it involved rebuilding France or something. Oh well. I guess a statue is obviously so much better than, well, being saved from occupation twice and having your country rebuilt twice. Yeah, and I said that because Greatone wanted to know when we if ever have gotten along with the french. Read the thread. Pay attention. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 5, 2004 Actually my question was when have they been our ally (which involves more than giving a statue) in the last 200 years if you wanna get technical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cerebus Report post Posted October 5, 2004 I still don't know how we can nominally call Chirac and the French allies. Would American allies, drill with the Chinese Navy while the nearby American 7th Fleet was on high alert a few hundred miles away, try to lift bans on arms exports to China, or block UN probes into the Oil-For-Food scandal? You tell me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest INXS Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Um, when the fuck in the last 200 years have the French been our allies? Being an ally is not JUST about helping out during war time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 6, 2004 So we hate the French only because they're not helping us out, right? It wouldn't have anything to do with, for example the fact that the Iraqi troops aren't getting their proper training (from NATO) thanks to them and are ending up getting killed, thus making our task in Iraq harder would it? Oh of course not. So tell me INXS, what makes a strong ally? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BX 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 You should write a book, GreatOne. You have a natural talent for conjuring up surrealistic, off the wall arguments, like the one expressed above. It'd be a best-seller among the "teH ROCK is teh bestst champin of allteim" set and the crack aficionados in Texas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Ah I see the French trying to undercut our efforts in Iraq by vetoing NATO training of the Iraqi soldiers out of spite is just some fairy story I cooked up. Vive la France right? You know it's a good thing for them that it was NY and Wash and not Paris that got hit. Of course then they'd do what they'd always do, come running to us crying 'He da bad guy make im stop!' You're right, I will write a book one day, and you'll be in it--under 'People's opinions that are worth less than nothing to me' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrRant 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 It's the French... come on. They name their kids Pierre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 I thought this thread might have factual information and would be pretty groundbreaking, but then I saw it was INXS, and bet myself 10 dollars it would be bullshit. Now I need to pay myself 10 dollars. Thanks for the bullshit, fellas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 6, 2004 So wait a minute, you're actually turning on INXS here? No wait, ugh..................... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 I'm turning on INXS? What? Wouldn't that imply that I've ever liked, defended, or agreed with him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GreatOne Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Being that the content of your posts in CE were roughly equal, I'll let you decide which it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2GOLD 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Jobber has treated INXS like the Alan Keyes of Democratic support. He would like to pretend he isn't there but he can't avoid him no matter how hard he tries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest INXS Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Wow, it's popular to flame/bash me at the moment. This thread isn't some whacked out conspiracy theory or a questionable story from a tenious source (ahem!) - it's actually a legit talking point which has, to no surprise, been turned in to a thread solely made up of bashing the French. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrRant 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Dude. They're the French. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest INXS Report post Posted October 6, 2004 Ok, I concede..it IS fun to bash them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Highland 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 I've no doubt that their's is not the only country who's leader's offices/phones are bugged. I also have no doubt that similar bugs are infesting the Oval Office. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tom 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 The Oval Office is not bugged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted October 6, 2004 I seem to remember they gave us some kind of gift awhile back. A statue or something? Oh sure it WAS a long time ago if you wanna split hairs.... Hm... I dunno, anyone remember something called the Marshall Plan? I could have sworn it involved rebuilding France or something. Oh well. I guess a statue is obviously so much better than, well, being saved from occupation twice and having your country rebuilt twice. Since I'm from George C. Marshall's hometown, I'm somewhat familiar with that. Although what useful info we could find out from Chirac I have no idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
