REBIRTH

[starvenger 0]

Ok, that teaser from #3 has got me interested in this storyline. Hm, I'll have to check it out when I get a chance and some money.

 

Edit:

Do I need to know any GL lore? Cause I'm like drawing blanks on the whole thing and I was a GL fan when I was younger.

Finished reading #3 and I can tell you that if you have any blanks they'll fill it in for you, and more. As for the story, this just might be the best retcon ever. I haven't thought much of some of Johns' previous work, but this absolutely hits the target.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Is it out now? I thought it was next week?

[Guest JMA]

Is it out now? I thought it was next week?

It came out today (December 22nd).

[Zorin Industries 0]

Crap, I won't get back to the shop till after Xmas

[Guest JMA]

Crap, I won't get back to the shop till after Xmas

I haven't gotten my copy yet either.

[Sass 0]

This book could rank up there with how Spider-Man slapped Mary Jane in the face during the Clone Saga debacle. It just won't have a good explanation that justifies the actions. Hal Jordan's character went twisted. Fans needed to accept this. Now DC is giving a pardon to a mass murderer who nearly slained both Sentinel and Kyle Rayner. To me, that's far worse than turning the character bad with a shitty motive (younger = more sales).

[Guest SP-1]

I dunno, Sass. After reading #3 tonight, I think Johns is doing something that just might set things straight without disregarding what came before. He's explaining things that have been vague before, but he hasn't let Hal completely off the hook yet. And I don't think he will.

 

I think Hal Jordan will have to regain the trust of those around him after Rebirth.

[Vyce 0]

I dunno, Sass. After reading #3 tonight, I think Johns is doing something that just might set things straight without disregarding what came before. He's explaining things that have been vague before, but he hasn't let Hal completely off the hook yet. And I don't think he will.

 

I think Hal Jordan will have to regain the trust of those around him after Rebirth.

Where the hell are you getting this?

 

All the issue did was flat out say: all the bad shit Hal Jordan did was not caused by him, it was caused by Parallax. Daemon ex machina.

[starvenger 0]

All the issue did was flat out say: all the bad shit Hal Jordan did was not caused by him, it was caused by Parallax. Daemon ex machina.

In essence, it did, but the thing I liked about the retcon was that Johns tried to incorporate everything about the GL mythology to make it work.

 

Now DC is giving a pardon to a mass murderer who nearly slained both Sentinel and Kyle Rayner. To me, that's far worse than turning the character bad with a shitty motive (younger = more sales).

Sass has a good point there, but at this point in time DC is pot-committed to bringing Jordan back, so it might as well be done in a way that makes him a hero again (although, I suppose that Final Night did that).

[Guest SP-1]

Let's see: I read the issue. And nowhere did I see it say that Hal is completely not responsible for what happened. ALL it said was that Parallax corrupted him bit by bit and warped his thinking. It doesn't say he was possessed, it doesn't say he has no responsibility in it.

 

Johns has said in interviews that Hal will still have to deal with his actions.

Edited December 27, 2004 by SP-1

[Guest JMA]

I loved this issue. Johns really knows the character of Hal Jordan and his history. I especially liked how he worked in the whole "gray hair" thing. The eldritch entity Parallax was visually awesome, as were its motives. Johns has managed to tie in the yellow weakness with the creature in a way that makes sense. This issue also reminded me of the old Alan Moore story featuring Abin Sur and the Empire of Tears, which is a good thing.

[Vyce 0]

Let's see: I read the issue. And nowhere did I see it say that Hal is completely not responsible for what happened. ALL it said was that Parallax corrupted him bit by bit and warped his thinking. It doesn't say he was possessed, it doesn't say he has no responsibility in it.

 

Johns has said in interviews that Hal will still have to deal with his actions.

Man, you gotta be shitting me.

 

I GUARANTEE within 12 months of this miniseries ending and Jordaon once again being GL, that absolutely NOTHING will become of the fact that he was a mass murderer.

 

He'll probably be part of the JLA and everyone (outside of maybe Batman) will treat him as if it never happened.

 

It's the way this shit is written these days.

[Guest JMA]

Ethan Van Sciver (the artist for Rebirth) posted some interesting comments over at Millarworld. Here's what he said:

 

Letting Hal sit around and be sad and upset about ET isn't ENTERTAINING. It isn't fun, and it isn't cool. You don't want to be around friends or acquaintances that are constantly moaning or bitching about their worries, so why should I expect you to PAY to read about a superhero with the gift of unlimited power whining about his?

 

The 90's misunderstood the 3-dimesional, self-aware characters of Alan Moore and Frank Miller. It lead to a boring, pathetic gripefest disguised as 'realism', and superheroes became dickheads. For a WHOLE DECADE. Enough already. I volunteer the notion that it's okay for comics to have happy endings occasionally, and it's a good idea to excite readers into loving these characters again, and to make people smile. Watch fans respond. That's all I'm saying.

[starvenger 0]

It's the way this shit is written these days.

Well, can't really disagree with that as a general statement when it comes to Marvel and DC. Their properties, to do as they see fit, I guess.

[Sass 0]

Hal Jordan lost it. He killed innocent people. No justification. It was not out of self-defense. He killed his fellow GL cohorts in cold blood. All for the selfish reason of bringing back his town after it had been destroyed. He was told "no" and even after he cut his way through the GL Corps, the city still did not come back.

 

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

 

This book is doomed because you are trying to put a positive spin on a mass murderer along with setting him up with his soon to be released monthly series. Wiping the slate clean so to speak. There's another slap. No one can ignore what Hal did. This is why I feel this story has been a slap in the face to fans. He killed his friends. He developed the traits of a super villain and did not look back. Coast City never was brought back. Hal did not even fulfill the mission he set out on when he went rogue.

 

He "died" in his last act by trying to save the DCU from getting blanked out by the Matter Eater but can that really be enough to atone for something like incinerating Killowog? I don't see either guy sharing a drink with one another over that.

 

Geoff Johns is writing with a double-edged sword here. The only people who win here are the HEAT goons and their blind ilk. Judd Winnick scores again though. Had DC not let Winnick sink GL Rayner as badly as he did on his run as writer then there would have been no need to bring back Hal or let a mass murderer of heroes have his own monthly series. Of course some people were probably licking their lips over Rayner getting dumped as GL. The book stunk and Rayner became the scapegoat instead of taking Winnick to task for writing a crummy book. That *is* the thing that I find most disgusting in this debacle. Instead, the knee-jerk reaction becomes to replace Rayner and to finally "atone" for past mistakes 10 years later.

 

I am just tired of the GL merry-go-round. It's been 10 years. I think it's time to get off this ride.

[Mecha Mummy 0]

Uhm, what? It's a comic book. A comic book that's selling well and is critically acclaimed. I have no idea where the "doomed" part comes in, because somehow I don't think the dissenting opinion of a guy on a message board is going to lead to the fiery death of Rebirth.

[starvenger 0]

Well, no, it's not. But hey, it's an opinion, and I always welcome those of Sass because they might not always be popular, but it's pointed and well thought out and he's generally got good reasoning to back it up.

[Guest SP-1]

I value Sass's opinion too, even though I disagree with it. I understand his logic and that's all I ask for.

 

The thing here, Sass, is that they're explaining why Hal did what he did. They aren't saying he didn't do it. They aren't letting him completely off the hook. They are saying that there was something much bigger happening beneath the surface. Something ancient and dark used Hal as a pawn.

 

Hal deserves a shot at getting himself back from this thing.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I see it that way well. While Parrallax was influencing Hal he didn't gain outright control until after Hal went into the battery. Hal wanted Coast City back and would whatever it took, I think the influence of Parrallax pushed him just over the line to murder, but Hal WAS capable of it at that point regardless.

[Sass 0]

I use to collect GL. He's a character I've always been frustrated with. The stoic ones like Hal and Captain America are always the ones that writers can not seem to figure out how to write for. This has made for some horrendous stories. In about one year, both Hal Jordan and Tony Stark (Iron Man), two of my favorites characters, were turned into murdering sociopaths and then replaced with some younger guy who happened to be wearing their outfits. I could no longer get myself to buy either character's book after that. I gave Rayner a chance since his intro wasn't as bad as young Stark's. I kept collecting the book until issue #86. That was when it became clear to me that Rayner was never going to get the full backing from DC that he needed in order to thrive. GL Rayner was never going to have the upper hand on guys who Hal would obliterate in fights. Nearly getting killed by Sonar and Dr.Light in back-to-back issues was awful. Both of those guys had no business giving Rayner trouble after being DC's doormat super villains for years.

 

The people from HEAT were harrassing writer Ron Marz and DC to the point where personal information of theirs was being leaked out to them. Like what sweaters Marz' wife was wearing when she went out for groceries or what she bought. These freaks finally managed to get DC to bend over with issue #100 when Hal made his big return in the regular DCU and sales for GL went up like nearly 70% at the time. That said it all. The Rayner experiment was given a half-assed effort by DC and the character never did manage to find that breakout story. Rayner limped on for another 7 years after issue #100 while always being in Hal's shadow. He never did step up like the writers had Wally West do in the Flash after he took over for Barry Allen, post-Crisis. The character was totally mundane and could have been a dead ringer for Joey from the show Friends. No one gives a shit about Joey. Rayner never had the chance he needed to succeed.

 

Now Hal is coming back. Again. This time, people are saying he's going to stay around for good. That's what DC was saying when they brought his book back in 1990 after his first book ended on a whimper (224 issues too). Hal is just not a very interesting character because he has never had a good writer, like Peter David on the Hulk, be able to tap into the character's strong points and build on them while manipulating his weaknesses into smart plot twists. Ron Marz was a very good writer but he turned Hal into a super hero with issues instead of doing the right thing and tapping into the GL Corps and going with that. Like Spider-Man, it was always Hal's supporting characters that brought out the best in him as a person and a character. His interaction with his fellow GLers was always a bright spot in the book. It carried a balanced dose of super hero and stoic soldier. That just never became the case though with Kyle Rayner. His supporting cast was a gang of low lifes or troubled misfits who forced their secrets and problems onto Rayner a tad too easily. They held back but they always left something for Rayner to dwell on without giving him the full scoop on what was happening (Terry) until it was too late and they found themselves in trouble. It always looked too obvious to me. I felt like I was watching a Bret Hart match on SNME or something. Hal's supporting cast never had cookie cutter stories. Rayner's cast did have those types of stories and that was one of the books big downfalls that occurred at the start and never changed.

 

Green Lantern is one of my favorite super heroes but his book is also one of the most frustrating runs I've read in comics. No one can get it right. I'm just tired of being burned with GL. I've been scorched too many times. That's all. This was a guy I grew up on reading. It sucks to see a favorite character of yours get misused or abused by fools. I apologize if I came off half-minded or delusional in my post above. It's just, this is a character I've always liked. I am just weary of finding myself getting attached to the book again but only to get burned once more by the hacks. That's all.

 

I hope this story turns out well.

[JasonX 0]

I GUARANTEE within 12 months of this miniseries ending and Jordaon once again being GL, that absolutely NOTHING will become of the fact that he was a mass murderer. 

 

He'll probably be part of the JLA and everyone (outside of maybe Batman) will treat him as if it never happened. 

Geoff has stated that even though DC is going through all of this trouble to bring Hal back as GL and absolve him of murder, that editorial has stated that Hal Jordan is completely off-limits to any and all future JLA writers do to John "I need to be killed off ASAP" Stewart being the Green Lantern in the cartoon.

[Guest SP-1]

I don't think Hal should be all that hard to write, personally. Mind, Sass, I'm not disagreeing with you that he's proven to be hard to write. That's pretty obvious. However, at his core, Hal's somewhere between Indiana Jones, Sky Captain, and James Bond. He's adventurous, fearless, and a ladies man when he wants to be. I'd like to write a story with Hal, just to see if its as hard as it seems to be.

 

But I'm too busy playing around with an Alan Scott project. I'm really starting to like him.

[JasonX 0]

On the V, a lot of people have been making comparisions to the whole Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix retcon. In this case, Hal is losing all of the personality growth he developed from being evil in the same way Jean lost any chance to be taken seriously as a powerful icon without having the Phoenix crap added on to make her be taken seriously as a hero.

 

That being said, they should have just gone all out and say Parallex was a fake or even better (if they want to tie into the upcoming "Crisis '05" crossover), say that Hal switched places with a temporal doppleganger from Hypertime that was the alternate universe Hal that went insane and became the Spectre.

 

That's what DC was saying when they brought his book back in 1990 after his first book ended on a whimper (224 issues too).

 

Totally wrong Sass. Green Lantern Corp got cancelled do to internal politics; IE the powers that be wanted one of the Big Guns heroes to headline Action Comics when it went into the highly controversial weekly format alongside Superman and Hal ended up getting picked to do so. GLC (which still sold well, especially compared to other DC team books at the time, which were doing horrible in terms of sales) got shitcanned so Hal could go to Action Comics.

 

As for the fall from grace of the Kyle Raynor run, it happened much earlier when John Byrne stole Donna Troy from the book and Marz inserted Jade as Kyle's love interest. Jade was a piss-poor substitute and the book never recovered from it.....

[Vyce 0]

I value Sass's opinion too, even though I disagree with it. I understand his logic and that's all I ask for.

 

The thing here, Sass, is that they're explaining why Hal did what he did. They aren't saying he didn't do it. They aren't letting him completely off the hook. They are saying that there was something much bigger happening beneath the surface. Something ancient and dark used Hal as a pawn.

 

Hal deserves a shot at getting himself back from this thing.

No, Sass is 100% correct in his analysis. He's absolutely right and I totally agree with him.

 

But look on the bright side - DC is obviously catering to those who view this from YOUR perspective, so we're going to get Hal Jordan back whether any of us like it or not.

[Sass 0]

I knew about the GLC and Action Comics stuff. But I didn't feel the last issue of GLC did the characters justice. At least not like, as say, Pre-Crisis Superman's big "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" storyline. That's a fucking send off for someone.

 

Byrne nabbing Donna Troy and inserting her into the black hole book of apathy that was Wonder Woman at the time was a lame, lame, lame thing. Issue #86 was where Rayner fought Jade's twit brother Obsidian after he didn't like what he saw between the two love birds. Donna was more interesting than Jade and it didn't hurt that she didn't look like She-Hulk's little sister. That was something I could never get over. The issue just turned me off from collecting the rest of Rayner's GL run. It was like reading Three's Company gone wrong.

 

If I were to compare Hal Jordan to anyone, it would be Captain America. They are both soldiers first and foremost.

[Guest JMA]

Here's some good news for Rebirth fans.

 

GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH #1 GOES BACK FOR FOURTH PRINTING!

 

 

December 28th, 2004 -

 

It's the comic so hot it simply refuses to stay on store shelves! Just two weeks after arriving in stores, GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH #1 Third Printing has sold out, setting the stage for an unprecedented fourth printing by DC Comics!

 

GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH #1 Fourth Printing — written by Geoff Johns with art by Ethan Van Sciver and sporting a recolored version of Van Sciver's cover art from the issue's second printing — is scheduled to arrive in stores on January 5.

 

"This is just what I wanted for Christmas: a fourth printing of REBIRTH #1," says Van Sciver. "Is this how Jimmy Stewart felt at the end of It's a Wonderful Life? He never got to draw Kilowog, so I've got to believe I'm happier. Thanks to each and every retailer, fan, and especially DC Comics for their continued support of our hard work on this miniseries. And extra special thanks from me to Geoff Johns for writing his heart out on this. The best is yet to come!"

Credit: DC Comics

 

Man, even I didn't think the series would do THIS well in terms of sales.

[JasonX 0]

I knew about the GLC and Action Comics stuff.  But I didn't feel the last issue of GLC did the characters justice.  At least not like, as say, Pre-Crisis Superman's big "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" storyline.  That's a fucking send off for someone.

The ending to GLC wasn't so much a send-off as the editors chucking the entire "Let's turn Green Lantern into a team-up book for no other reason than because New Teen Titans/LSH are our top sellers" status quo out the window and return the GL franchise to there only being a couple of Green Lanterns on Earth instead of a huge legion of them.....

 

That being said, the only big problem with said finale was the shitty way they killed off Sinestro, who is the only decent villain in the entire Green Lantern rogue gallary.....

[Guest SP-1]

It's looking like Sinestro might be more important than we've ever thought, heh.

[converge241 0]

that ending was very sweet

[The Metal Maniac 0]

So, I've been reading these comincs, and they kick some lotta ass.

 

However, I don't read comics often, and thus must ask: How are the comics in which Hal first goes crazy? I've never read them, but now I want to. It seems many don't like them, but is that due to their quality, or the way Hal Jordan was treated?

 

So basically: Are those good comics too, and how hard would it be (probably) to get my hands on them? I'm not a collector, so I'm not gonna hunt down a bunch of rare comics in mint condition, but I had heard they were out in trade paperback (which I assume means that they're bound together, like a book) so something like that would be fine. Or if they're not that rare, I could see if my local comic shops have them.

 

So...how are they?