Kurt Angle was beaten by a TE kid.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The thing is the WWE shouldn't play it up big and they shouldn't ignore it either. Point it out and put a question in the fans mind - actually get them to do something they haven't done in a long, long time... say "What if..." What if there wasn't a pin? What if his shoulders weren't down? What if he hadn't been training the whole day? What if he had another shot at Kurt Angle in the ring? That's all they really need to do - plant that notion in the fans' mind and let it grow and see where it goes.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

[Guest Banders Kennany]

Angle is not bought as legitimate because they made him look like a goof for the first 4 years of his career.

Do they do thing where he forgets simple holds in the ring, or ineptly maneuvers himself? That stuff is the character, but he's not played as a goof off jerk in the squared circle.

 

Angle is not a consistent main eventer and is not always played up as a huge threat.

Show, Eddy, Bradshaw, Taker and Angle are the established main eventers for Smackdown. He is played up as a huge threat in the ring, even in the cowboy days.

 

Stop lying and completely ignoring what I say and the context inwhich I say it in.  You are totally, utterly, completely wrong here and my point still stands.

Because you want it to stand. Heaven forbid anyone disagrees with you.

 

Go away, you add nothing here besides flame bait.

And you are always so civil to everyone. But sorry, I'll just try to condescend everybody like yourself.

 

Just like you have to go out of the circle to get a break in amateur wrestling.

Then wouldn't the equivalent be going outside the ring to get a break? Don't answer that, I don't want to confuse you. The answer is "Yes".

As Metal Maniac said, touching the ropes breaks the plane of being inside the ring. It's the professional wrestling equivalent.

 

Rope Breaks are Professional Wrestling specific.  It doesn't happen in boxing, it doesn't happen in MMA, it doesn't happen in any in-ring grappling event that I have seen.  Infact, grabbing the rope is illegal in these circumstances. Still here?  Go away.

Since professional wrestling is in a ring instead of on an amateur mat, they have rope breaks as a way to translate the "break the hold if you leave the circle" rule.

 

It's like you want so bad for precious MMA superstar Daniel Puder to be in the complete right here.

[Guest Saku39]

" Puder will be voted out this week, so I wouldn't worry too much."

 

Was checking this and other wrestling forums to see what the talk was of it and glad to see some knowledgable guys on here about MMA and the Kimura that was on Angle.

 

Puder won't be voted out this week cause too many MMA guys like me and fans alike have been all over this since it happened and got it recognition by Meltzer because of it (check www.mma.tv) .

 

i have all the respect for Angle being an Olympic Gold Medalist in Freestyle Wrestling but he has been working the fake scene for awhile now and obviously he wasn't expecting a "fight" back.

 

They even dicked Puder out of the pushup contest thing when he was clearly winning it with ease so Angle could smack around a fat winded guy with no skills at all, he should have stopped it there instead of asking if anyone else wanted some. The crowd chanting UFC was just icing on the cake, now you have me and thousands of other MMA people tuning into yer show just to see what happens next.

 

By the way during the pinfall Puder was cranking the Kimura even harder and his left shoulder was raised off the mat but good acknowledgment by the refs to stop it and yes it would have been broke it Puder kept at it but he let it go nicely and props to him for doing that.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Do they do thing where he forgets simple holds in the ring, or ineptly maneuvers himself? That stuff is the character, but he's not played as a goof off jerk in the squared circle.

 

Did you watch his match with Rey a few weeks ago?

 

Which is besides the point anyways, but you're wrong again because in that match Rey ran all around the ring and Kurt followed him like a doofus, because the whole point was that the fans believe Puder can kick ass because of his fighter background, I don't think anyone says "I can't wait to see Angle kick ____'s ass!"

 

Show, Eddy, Bradshaw, Taker and Angle are the established main eventers for Smackdown. He is played up as a huge threat in the ring, even in the cowboy days.

 

When was the last time Angle main evented?

 

No Mercy? Nope, 6th match on the card.

Summerslam? Nope, 6th match on the card.

WM? Nope, 11th match on the card - 2 away from the main event.

NWO? Nope, Brock/Eddie mained.

RR? If you want to count the RR match as the main event, but he wasn't even in the last 2 guys in the ring.

Survivor Series 2003? Nope - second match of the night

No Mercy 2003? Nope, 7th match, 2 away from the Main

Summerslam 2003? Nope, again 2 away from the main

Vengeance 2003 - BINGO!

 

The guy hasn't been in the main event in WELL over a year. He goes up and down from the top spot frequently. That's not what established main eventers do. Look at HHH, that's an established ME'er.

 

Because you want it to stand. Heaven forbid anyone disagrees with you.

 

It stands because you can't provide any evidence to the contrary. I can and have. You can disagree with me, that is, if you are happy being completely wrong. Kurt Angle is not seen as legitimate because he has been portrayed as someone who is a goofball for over 4 years.

 

And Lei Tong always disagrees with me (he did so in this thread) and he's often right too. He did and does what you don't do, support his arguments.

 

And you are always so civil to everyone. But sorry, I'll just try to condescend everybody like yourself.

 

I was civil in this thread and I still am. I actually put forth the effort to respond to your points using actual evidence to support my argument. You have been nothing but disrespectful by ignoring it and continuing on with your flawed reasoning.

 

As Metal Maniac said, touching the ropes breaks the plane of being inside the ring. It's the professional wrestling equivalent.

 

There is no "professional wrestling equivalent" because it's actually in professional wrestling! Reaching out and grabbing the rope for a break is not the same as being outside the ring, it's the same as reaching out and grabbing the rope for a break. You see this in professional wrestling, you don't see it in Amateur wrestling. You see in the gif that I posted the ref counted to 3 - you see this in professional wrestling, yuou don't see it in Amateur wrestling. You are not very good at this.

 

Since professional wrestling is in a ring instead of on an amateur mat, they have rope breaks as a way to translate the "break the hold if you leave the circle" rule.

 

T/F - Rope breaks are in professional wrestling.

T/F - Rope breaks are not in amateur wrestling

T/F - Rope breaks were allowed in Angles "matches" on Smackdown

T/F - The Ref counts to 3 in professional wrestling matches

T/F - The Ref doesn't count to 3

T/F - The Ref counted to 3 in these matches

 

It's like you want so bad for precious MMA superstar Daniel Puder to be in the complete right here.

 

Puder isn't an MMA superstar, and he's certainly not precious to me. I am just surprised to how the fans have taken to him and think it's because they see him as legitimate. Something real in this very fake world of the WWE. I think that is something the WWE should strongly look at and maybe reflect on. THAT, to me, is precious. Because that would be something new and fresh that could be added to this stale product.

[Styles 0]

Absolutely awesome. I loved every second of it. I hope Puder wins, and shoots on every wrestler who is a dick to him.

 

Meltzer is right, this could be the huge angle to turn things around, but they're ignoring it. First it was hardcore, then high flying, the new "in" style is shootfighting and ground fighting. They could make Puder into a top star next week if they wanted to, but they won't. They'll bury him and anyone else who brings something new and interesting to the table in favor of more tall muscle-heads.

[Precious Roy 0]

Rope Breaks are Professional Wrestling specific.  It doesn't happen in boxing

 

Yes it does.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Explain and then say how it's relevant to this case. I'm tired of doing all the work.

[Slickster 0]

I'm not sure how this can be a 'hot new angle' that gets average Joes to watch again. 'Hey, you know that UFC stuff?" [which people see as bloodsport] "Well, on wrestling last night they had one of their guys beat up a pro wrestler!" [it must be fake because its pro wrestling; who watches that crap?]

 

Unless they resurrect the Lion's Den cage and have Puder Kimura guys to death, I don't even see how it could fit into the WWE context w/o giving Puder a lot of training so he doesn't potato guys like Shamrock did when he debuted.

[Precious Roy 0]

Explain and then say how it's relevant to this case. I'm tired of doing all the work.

How is it relevant? It's not. At all. But I didn't bring it up

 

Just wanted to correct that false belief. When boxers are in the ropes, in a clinch, there is a three second count and then the ref breaks them up. Same premise as a submission hold in wrestling, a clinch is the closest thing that exists in boxing. Frankly I'm shocked that somebody didn't something as basic as that and tried to pass it off like they knew what they were talking about.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

When boxers are in a clinch, in general, the ref will break them up. If a boxer is against the ropes and getting pounded, the ref won't break it up (unless it's for the fighters protection). If a boxer gets KO'd but his hand ends up under the rope, the ref won't stop counting because of it. If a boxer is against the ropes, he's not considered "out of the ring". A boxer can't use the ropes to get out of a situation - in this case the clinch is what does that. This relates to to wrestling because BK said there was the implication that it wasn't a pro wrestling match, but in no other 'sport' does there exist a rule where if you grab the rope you are safe. It is exclusive to pro wrestling. So Puder going for a submission hold was something that he could and should have done.

[Fro 0]

Right, it was a real match under WWE-style rules and they figured Angle would mop the floor with the guy (which he did). Then Angle's head got a bit too big and he decided to take on Puder (who owned him by using a different style than Angle was used to wrestling).

[strummer 0]

from PWI:

 

 

"As you would expect, Kurt Angle was less than happy backstage at Smackdown after almost being forced to tap out to Tough Enough contestant Daniel Puder. Downright ticked off would probably be the best way to describe his mood. The unscripted nature of the contest was the main reason that Angle was made to look so bad since Puder just reacted to the situation and could have forced Angle to submit had the referees not thought quickly and counted a pin that wasn’t there on Puder. While there are some workers in the locker room who haven't exactly been fans of Angle's politics backstage of late, the general feeling was that the company is putting the workers in bad situations by having them in "shoot" scenarios, especially given the segments over the last two weeks with Angle and The Big Show. The phrase "the business is a work for a reason" has been repeated to me a lot over the last few days"

[Guest Andrew J.]

In kayfabe keylocks are as effective as armbars. Casual fans won't care about it, and frankly neither do I.

 

RRR: if you don't define "main event" as "last match of the event" (WWE doesn't, after all) Angle was in the SD main event at WM and the co-SD main event at Summerslam. He's also been on the final match of SD several times, and he'll be in one of the main events of Survivor Series.

 

Also, the theory behind rope breaks is that when a wrestler's body is touching or underneath the ropes, his entire body is not technically in the ring. So you see, it is sort of like being outside the ring in amateur wrestling.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

RRR: if you don't define "main event" as "last match of the event" (WWE doesn't, after all) Angle was in the SD main event at WM and the co-SD main event at Summerslam. He's also been on the final match of SD several times, and he'll be in one of the main events of Survivor Series.

 

Also, the theory behind rope breaks is that when a wrestler's body is touching or underneath the ropes, his entire body is not technically in the ring. So you see, it is sort of like being outside the ring in amateur wrestling.

What does "SD main event at WM" mean? It was the main event or it wasn't. Eddie/Angle wasn't even the most hyped match *on Smackdown*, that title went to Goldberg/Brock, let alone at WM. It wasn't the focal point of Summerslam either. Smackdown TV main events? Meaningless. Rey has main evented Smackdown countless times, he's not a main eventer.

 

As for Rope Breaks, then why does a Wrestler have till the count of 5 to release a hold? Professional Wrestling has it's own rules, it's distinctive to professional wrestling.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

The only thing I can really add to this is that Tough Enough is stupid. Nothing big enough happened here to hurt Angle's character or career, but if he had to tap, that would have been bad. This should either be shoot fighting or pro-wrestling. It makes no since to mix the two. I like pro-wrestling more than MMA, and I could care less if pro-wrestlers can beat up Tough Enough kids or not. I want to see them put on good fake matches. If I want real matches, I'll watch amateur wrestling, UFC, or boxing. Pro-wrestling is a different monster all together, there is no need to mix the two.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Straight up, I'd pay for Angle vs. Puder in a shoot. That's the _only_ match the WWE can do right now with its current roster that I would pay to see.

[Guest Brian]

What's their size difference?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Kurts probably 2 inches shorter, 10 lbs heavier

[strummer 0]

This was all Brian Gewirtz's idea, again from Scherer:

 

 

"For the record, the idea to put Kurt Angle in “shoot” situations on Smackdown last week came from Raw writer Brian Gewirtz. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised."

[Guest Anglesault]

and he'll be in one of the main events of Survivor Series.

So will Maven and Mark Jindrak.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Sort of related to this, but Angle broke the rib of Chris Nawrocki, the other guy he tangled with. If he can't continue, then he's out of TE, which would make the second week in a row that a guy has been eliminted without a vote.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

I'm not sure how this can be a 'hot new angle' that gets average Joes to watch again. 'Hey, you know that UFC stuff?" [which people see as bloodsport] "Well, on wrestling last night they had one of their guys beat up a pro wrestler!" [it must be fake because its pro wrestling; who watches that crap?]

 

Unless they resurrect the Lion's Den cage and have Puder Kimura guys to death, I don't even see how it could fit into the WWE context w/o giving Puder a lot of training so he doesn't potato guys like Shamrock did when he debuted.

This is what I fail to understand as well.

 

I mean usually I'm right there with Meltzer's opinions, but I think he's off his rocker on this one.

 

How many MMA fans are there? Not that many. And even if you could get them to start watching WWE, where would you go with that?

 

Cole: "Folks the following match will be real"

 

Tazz: "Yeah not like the usual BS we feed the fans week in and week out"

 

Cole: "Right, but this Angle-Puder match will be 100% real"

 

Tazz: "people call em shoots"

 

Cole: "Right, well lets see it now.."

 

* match ends with Puder making Angle tap to something*

 

Cole: "wow, what a match, I cant believe Angle tapped out, and now the fans are chanting 'You Tapped Out'"

 

Tazz: "well at least they arent' chanting 'You Suck'"

 

Cole: "okay, now lets get back to the usual worked BS"

 

Tazz: "No doubt, JBL is defending the WWE title....

 

END SCENE

 

So like I said, I dont see where this can go. Hopefully Dave explains further. Or maybe someone smarter than me can explain it to me.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Because when something is real, it has an atmosphere and a tension that you cannot manufacture, and the fans can pick up on that. The fans are a lot smarter than people give them credit for when it comes to picking up on stuff that isn't meant to happen.

[Guest Andrew J.]

 

RRR: if you don't define "main event" as "last match of the event" (WWE doesn't, after all) Angle was in the SD main event at WM and the co-SD main event at Summerslam.  He's also been on the final match of SD several times, and he'll be in one of the main events of Survivor Series.

 

Also, the theory behind rope breaks is that when a wrestler's body is touching or underneath the ropes, his entire body is not technically in the ring.  So you see, it is sort of like being outside the ring in amateur wrestling.

What does "SD main event at WM" mean? It was the main event or it wasn't. Eddie/Angle wasn't even the most hyped match *on Smackdown*, that title went to Goldberg/Brock, let alone at WM. It wasn't the focal point of Summerslam either. Smackdown TV main events? Meaningless. Rey has main evented Smackdown countless times, he's not a main eventer.

 

As for Rope Breaks, then why does a Wrestler have till the count of 5 to release a hold? Professional Wrestling has it's own rules, it's distinctive to professional wrestling.

WWE often refers to multiple matches on the same card as main events. It has more to do with how important management thinks a match is than when it takes place. Generally speaking, any hyped match with upper carders on both sides can be described as a main event. Wrestlemania 19, as you recall, actually had four (HHH/Booker, Austin/Rock III, McMahon/Hogan and Angle/Lesnar).

 

A wrestler has a count of 5 to break a hold if any part of his or his victim's body is outside the ring. It's not often that holds are applied out on the floor, but if they are there's a 5-count just as if there was a rope break.

[Guest Brian]

The idea is not to attract the hardcore mma fans but to create an aura of legitimacy to build a character around. Besides, if you get that pocket buzzing, who often are going to be the least appreciable of professional wrestling, it's a good sign.

[Guest Anglesault]

 

RRR: if you don't define "main event" as "last match of the event" (WWE doesn't, after all) Angle was in the SD main event at WM and the co-SD main event at Summerslam.  He's also been on the final match of SD several times, and he'll be in one of the main events of Survivor Series.

 

Also, the theory behind rope breaks is that when a wrestler's body is touching or underneath the ropes, his entire body is not technically in the ring.  So you see, it is sort of like being outside the ring in amateur wrestling.

What does "SD main event at WM" mean? It was the main event or it wasn't. Eddie/Angle wasn't even the most hyped match *on Smackdown*, that title went to Goldberg/Brock, let alone at WM. It wasn't the focal point of Summerslam either. Smackdown TV main events? Meaningless. Rey has main evented Smackdown countless times, he's not a main eventer.

 

As for Rope Breaks, then why does a Wrestler have till the count of 5 to release a hold? Professional Wrestling has it's own rules, it's distinctive to professional wrestling.

WWE often refers to multiple matches on the same card as main events. It has more to do with how important management thinks a match is than when it takes place. Generally speaking, any hyped match with upper carders on both sides can be described as a main event. Wrestlemania 19, as you recall, actually had four (HHH/Booker, Austin/Rock III, McMahon/Hogan and Angle/Lesnar).

They can say it all they want, it boils down to what they do.

 

Angle/Lesnar, for instance, was a match with midcard level build, hype and TV exposure that was called a "main event" and happened to end the show.

[humongous2002 0]

Sort of related to this, but Angle broke the rib of Chris Nawrocki, the other guy he tangled with. If he can't continue, then he's out of TE, which would make the second week in a row that a guy has been eliminted without a vote.

Well good thing the UFC guy fought back or he would've been in the same situation.

[AndrewTS 0]

"A wrestler has a count of 5 to break a hold if any part of his or his victim's body is outside the ring. It's not often that holds are applied out on the floor, but if they are there's a 5-count just as if there was a rope break."

 

Since when?

 

I don't recall that ever happening. They just do the regular count on guys who are outside the ring. I haven't paid much attention to the shows lately, so maybe I missed a new rule.

[frisco 0]

I didn't watch Smackdown last week so I missed this. But if this clowd actually did a shoot on Angle they should fire him on the spot. Kurt Angle is a major star in the WWE and this guy is some Tough Enough punk who probably will be voted off in no time.

Personally I thing its a work. If this guy is looking for a job in the WWE why the hell would be shoot on Kurt Angle? Angle is a major draw. This kid couldn't sell a ticket to his parents!