Who doesn't love Fred Phelps?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I know I will get killed for this, but isn't ironic that whenever a pyscho extremist christian comes out with this rhetoric, he is quickly identified as some isolated deranged individual warping the great christian religion, but if it is a muslim extremist people quickly point and say "see islam is a religion of evil and hate"

 

Here's the difference: Islam IS a religion of evil and hate. That's what it preaches. Kill the unblievers, the infidels, the Jews, the Christians, and other non-Muslims. Islam has a grip on a populous region of the world, and that region has really yet to evolve out of the Dark Ages in many respects because of the religion.

 

Compare this to Christianity. Yes, it's had its bloody past, and the Old Testament -- which Christians are all to happy to throw under the bus -- makes reference to wonderful things like smashing your children's head against the rocks to be happy. Despite that, and perhaps because of all that, Christianity has evolved. It still has its fringes, and people like Phelps live on them, but the bulk of the religion has come out of the Dark and Middles Ages and modernized itself pretty well.

 

Meh, I feel dirty now. Goddamnit.

Keep in mind that Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity. 600 years ago Christians were still eating their own turds.

 

When you say that Christianity has "evolved," I think you are giving too much credit to the religion and not enough credit to the societies in which Christianity exists (North America, Europe, etc.) and their cultures, systems of government, etc.

 

And these "Christian" or Western societies, while preferable (in my opinion), are not perfect by any means. For instance, levels of street violence are much higher (whereas "Islamic" countries have higher levels of political violence).

[NoCalMike 0]

speaking of notorious Christians, Mel Gibson spoke after the awards show last night after winning best drama for "The Passion of Christ" When asked about F-9/11 Gibson said he didn't even need to watch the film to raise questions about being in Iraq, and how no one has laid out any specific reasons for what the hell we are doing there and that he can get on board with.

 

 

I didn't know Gibson was anti-Iraq war.

[Vern Gagne 0]

What exactly is Mel looking for?

[2GOLD 0]

Call me when Mel becomes sane again.

Which will probably be a quarter to never.

 

Although Mel is much more sane than Phelps, but that's not saying much.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Call me when Mel becomes sane again.

Which will probably be a quarter to never.

 

Although Mel is much more sane than Phelps, but that's not saying much.

How is he insane?

 

A lot of Christians who are against the Iraq War, voted for Bush anyway because they feel so strongly against abortion and gay marriage. Don't know how Mel stands on the subject.

[Special K 0]

Mel gave one sort of wild-eyed interview and suddenly he's crazy. It's not like Coppola who pretty much DID go crazy filming a movie.

Gibson sounds like a stand-up guy with his own ideas in most interviews.

[NoCalMike 0]

Call me when Mel becomes sane again.

Which will probably be a quarter to never.

 

Although Mel is much more sane than Phelps, but that's not saying much.

How is he insane?

 

A lot of Christians who are against the Iraq War, voted for Bush anyway because they feel so strongly against abortion and gay marriage. Don't know how Mel stands on the subject.

So they voted for Bush based on two issues that most likely won't even be visited in the least over the next four years?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Call me when Mel becomes sane again.

Which will probably be a quarter to never.

 

Although Mel is much more sane than Phelps, but that's not saying much.

How is he insane?

 

A lot of Christians who are against the Iraq War, voted for Bush anyway because they feel so strongly against abortion and gay marriage. Don't know how Mel stands on the subject.

So they voted for Bush based on two issues that most likely won't even be visited in the least over the next four years?

I don't know about gay marriage, but as far as abortion it is stupid because I don't think anyone can make that illegal, the only thing to do is to try and educate people on why you feel the way you do.

 

But you are right, those two issues will not be resolved in the short amount of time that Bush is in office, but people hold out hope.

[Guest SP-1]

Islam doesn't exactly have a cozy afterlife for unbelievers either there, Mike. Add to it that it was founded by a glorified desert pirate (let's be honest, the guy attacked caravans and forced people to follow him). You also say "killed" as if Christians believe they get their shot at taking non-believers out. Which is a severe lack of comprehension of the biblical meaning of spiritual death.

 

You don't end up in Hell simply because you didn't believe. That sounds like everyone was headed to heaven in the first place and a forced detour was put into effect if you didn't play along with this new rule.

 

This is a completely backwards understanding.

 

Everyone is born headed for hell. The sinful nature automatically seperates everyone from God. The detour is a detour in the right direction. The detour is a detour of mercy to Heaven, when Jesus paid the price for sin he made the detour available for those that want to recognize it and take it.

 

Just wanted to clear up the general perception.

[NoCalMike 0]

Everyone is born headed for hell.

Wow, I am convinced. Where do I sign up for this religion thing....?

 

[Special K 0]

Calvinism. You are born predestined to heaven or hell. While good works and intentions might indicate you're going to heaven, it's all a crapshoot.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Doesn't Christianity have eternal suffering for unbelievers too? That doesn't sound too cozy to me either.

[2GOLD 0]

Wait...I thought children were born sweet and innocent and destine for heaven? Now you tell me when born, kids are set to go to hell.

 

What kind of crap is that?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Wait...I thought children were born sweet and innocent and destine for heaven? Now you tell me when born, kids are set to go to hell.

 

What kind of crap is that?

The concept of Original Sin. We're damned because of what Adam and Eve did, it's in our nature to sin, and the only way to redeem ourselves is to pay the price for it, and the only one who can pay the ultimate price, is Jesus Christ.

[NoCalMike 0]

Wait...I thought children were born sweet and innocent and destine for heaven? Now you tell me when born, kids are set to go to hell.

 

What kind of crap is that?

The concept of Original Sin. We're damned because of what Adam and Eve did, it's in our nature to sin, and the only way to redeem ourselves is to pay the price for it, and the only one who can pay the ultimate price, is Jesus Christ.

When Jesus died for our sins, did he forget to include "Original Sin" in the list? That is one concept that I never understood.

[Special K 0]

What I was taught in Catholic school is that unbabtized babies go to purgatory. They haven't had a chance to commit real evil, so they don't go to hell, but they haven't received the sacrement of babtism and thus cannot enter salvation. Maybe they will at the end of days, I think purgatory's supposed to be gone by then.

 

To a previous point: if the makeup of the Supreme Court becomes strongly conservative, you better believe they'll try to overturn Roe v Wade.

[Guest SP-1]

What I was taught in Catholic school is that unbabtized babies go to purgatory. They haven't had a chance to commit real evil, so they don't go to hell, but they haven't received the sacrement of babtism and thus cannot enter salvation. Maybe they will at the end of days, I think purgatory's supposed to be gone by then.

 

To a previous point: if the makeup of the Supreme Court becomes strongly conservative, you better believe they'll try to overturn Roe v Wade.

Purgatory isn't a biblical concept.

 

At all.

 

NoCal: What do you mean by "did he include Original Sin in that list"?

[NoCalMike 0]

What I was taught in Catholic school is that unbabtized babies go to purgatory. They haven't had a chance to commit real evil, so they don't go to hell, but they haven't received the sacrement of babtism and thus cannot enter salvation. Maybe they will at the end of days, I think purgatory's supposed to be gone by then.

 

To a previous point: if the makeup of the Supreme Court becomes strongly conservative, you better believe they'll try to overturn Roe v Wade.

Purgatory isn't a biblical concept.

 

At all.

 

NoCal: What do you mean by "did he include Original Sin in that list"?

 

Nevermind that question. Instead explain to me the whole purpose behind God sacrificing jesus "for our sins" I am not really sure what it was meant to show, or do, or what it acheived in the long run? I mean what was the purpose of the event?

[Guest sek69]

If you all keep talking religion, I'm going to have to mention how in Christianity God is the trinity: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. So God the Son (Jesus) died to complete the covenant of God the Father.

 

So basically God sacrificed himself to himself to fulfill his own covenant.

 

I grew up Irish Catholic, so I really tried to stay with the whole religion thing but it doesn't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.

 

Real Christ-like Christians are becoming a rare breed as more and more folks wrap themselves in the flag and God and pick and choose Bible passages to defend their discriminatory beliefs.

[Guest SP-1]

I don't know if Sek was trying to, but he kind of answered the question for me.

 

Since Jesus was God in the flesh, sinless, perfect, only He could pay the full price for sin as a sacrifice. By willfully going to the cross to die, he completed the sacrificial covenant arrangement, all on His own instead of requiring humans to forever be trying to earn our way when we couldn't. It was the faith of those under the old covenant, completing their sacrifices as a look forward to God making things right, and the faith of Christians now, looking back to the completed work that is key.

 

However, God's not a puppet-master. You can choose to deny Him and the path that He provided, or you can choose to accept Christ's atonement on your behalf and begin turning away from a sinful life.

 

 

Sek: I take it that last part was a shot at Christians who are opposed to homosexuality?

[NoCalMike 0]

I don't know if Sek was trying to, but he kind of answered the question for me.

 

Since Jesus was God in the flesh, sinless, perfect, only He could pay the full price for sin as a sacrifice. By willfully going to the cross to die, he completed the sacrificial covenant arrangement, all on His own instead of requiring humans to forever be trying to earn our way when we couldn't. It was the faith of those under the old covenant, completing their sacrifices as a look forward to God making things right, and the faith of Christians now, looking back to the completed work that is key.

 

However, God's not a puppet-master. You can choose to deny Him and the path that He provided, or you can choose to accept Christ's atonement on your behalf and begin turning away from a sinful life.

 

 

Sek: I take it that last part was a shot at Christians who are opposed to homosexuality?

Sure god is a puppet master of sorts. I mean God quite frankly could put an end to any and all speculation of his existence with one swoop at any given time. Then there would never again be a quesiton in anyone's mind. God could easily turn faith into fact over night. I understand the free will argument, but really it is just saying, well yeah you have free will and all, but if you chooses to take that option yer gonna burn in hell for it.

[Positively Kanyon 0]

Ace of Base

That's enough to hate the Sweeds right there... I can't stand their music!

[Guest INXS]

I didn't know Gibson was anti-Iraq war.

I think that we have now come to a point where everyone should be assumed as being anti Iraq-war and we should be amazed when celebrities are pro war.

[Jingus 0]

I think that we have now come to a point where everyone should be assumed as being anti Iraq-war and we should be amazed when celebrities are pro war.

Aside from the biggest movie star in the world who happens to be a Republican governor, of course.

[Ripper 0]

Sek: I take it that last part was a shot at Christians who are opposed to homosexuality?

It damn well should be, because it is getting ridiculous.

 

I held a conversation with a girl that goes to Bob Jones University this weekend, and I swear....the shit that they are feeding these people is amazing.

 

I mean first of all, they filter their news there so that they only get to see the info that they want for them. Then they tell them that homosexuals have this agenda and one of the major parts of it is to lower or do away with the age of consent. Gays apparently want to do away with it, but would accept it to be lowered to 12. i mean that was just the tip of the ice burg on the long list of just ignorance or outright lies these students are being taught and this is from one of the more highly praised Christian schools in the country. Its sad really.

[Special K 0]

The Trinity isn't a biblical concept.

 

At all.

 

Or at least it's as biblical as purgatory.

 

Biblical argument for purgatory.

^Boing.

 

Everyone needs to interpret the Bible, becuase it is an abstruse document, even the leaders of the religion.

 

Is Schwarzenegger really the biggest movie star in the world?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Arnie is also towing the party line. He's more liberal then conservative on a lot of issues, but since he's got an R beside his name, the conservatives will vote for him. They need to win California in any way that they can.

[NoCalMike 0]

Arnie is a big business profiteer oppurtunist populist......is those descriptions even belong together!?!

 

He ran on a ticket of bringing people together, but really that just meant trying tro convince the democrats to vote for every tax break or de-regulation or kick-back to big business that he proposed. Sound familiar?

 

I will admit, Arnold is pretty good for my liking on social issues, but a lot of the time he seems unattached to most issues and almost has to make decisions on everything at the eleventh hour, or has to be coaxed into reversing some decision at the last second.

 

Arnold's main goal supposedly is to bring business back to CA in a big way, but the problem is, he wants to do this by using George W Bush's model of "lets makes corporations less accountable for anything and everything they do, lets not charge them taxes, and lets not give the people the oppurtunity to bring lawsuits against them in any case"

[Guest SP-1]

The Trinity isn't a biblical concept.

 

At all.

 

Or at least it's as biblical as purgatory.

 

Biblical argument for purgatory.

^Boing.

 

Everyone needs to interpret the Bible, becuase it is an abstruse document, even the leaders of the religion.

 

Is Schwarzenegger really the biggest movie star in the world?

The Trinity is entirely biblical. The evidence for it is throughout scripture. Purgatory, however, has nothing backing it up and was an invention of the Catholic church.

 

As for interpretation, it depends on what you mean. The Bible must be understood in its historical and cultural contexts, and understood as a whole to be properly interpreted. It's an academic process called "Hermeneutics".

 

Ripper: There are some people at my University that came there to escape the retardation that happens at Bob Jones. I don't endorse them much at all. Neither do most Christians I know. There's alot of legalism there, which is something to be avoided.

[Special K 0]

*Sigh* I had a much better response written out, and IE crashed when I tried to post.

 

There is evidence of the Trinity. However, there's no proof that God the Father and Jesus are one. Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, he never asks that he himself be worshipped, He offers the Lord's prayer and asks for God's word to be spread. Nowhere does he say he is equal to God. If it is so very clear, why was it one of the main points of debate among early Christians? Answer: it isn't clear.

 

And did you read the site above? Where you seem to believe the Catholics made Purgatory up out of thin air, there are passages that lend themselves quite a bit to a place of cleansing between heaven and hell. It's not definite of course. Why? Because the Bible is often opaque and contradictory, written by man.

 

Quick question, before the time of Jesus, where did the good men of the past go? Was Abraham in hell before Jesus allowed ascension to heaven?

 

Why else would there be so MANY sects of Christianity? Every one differs in some way in their interpretation of the Bible.

 

Don't mean to pick a fight, you seem like a decent guy, just want to discuss, especially since you say you have studied the Bible intensively, yet see no opacity or contradiction in it.