zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Benoit wrestled on Heat. Clearly they aren't interested in "protecting" him. Fucking christ, kids, why can't you just admit that Batista is entertaining? All this is is bitching about Benoit not being treated as God. What, would it be better for Benoit to no-sell all of Batista's offense and then suddenly come down with narcolepsy and fall asleep so that Batista didn't really win and your Lord and Savior is still "protected"? Christ almighty, you guys are sad sometimes. HHH is god, dont you watch RAW. When ever somebody is pushed it is the expense of somebody else. Benoit was the loser this time, since it wasnt booked problem. All it took was JR saying that Batista had learnt from his previous encounters from Benoit, is a monster and doenst think that he will just roll over for HHH. There are tonnes of things that annoy me with the product. This has just got back up. And Benoit is suffering because of it. Which will wreck his career like it did Jericho, Booker and RVD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nl5xsk1 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 It's threads like this that make me think that the internet is bad for wrestling; too many people feeding off each other, sending the paranoia skyrocketing upwards. I remember being young, and seeing the Road Warriors lose tag-titles to lesser teams (Varsity Club? Garvin & Regal??) without worrying them falling down the ladder. I remember Flair looking like shit night in and night out, and needing to cheat to retain his title without worrying about his spot. I remember Sting losing repeated title shots without being concerned when someone else became the top challenger for the belt for a while. But, now, one guy loses one match (or a series of matches) and it's the end of the world. It's not that bad ... does anyone think that even if Benoit wins last night that he'd be any higher in the eyes of the writers, fans, etc? No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 finally, someone chimes in with a sensible post...good job nl! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dazed Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Winning and losing doesn't matter, it's how they are presented that is important. Rudo's been saying that all thread, and I even brought it up on the main site 18 months ago... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nl5xsk1 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Winning and losing doesn't matter, it's how they are presented that is important. Rudo's been saying that all thread, and I even brought it up on the main site 18 months ago... I don't get how Benoit was presented poorly. He lost to a much bigger man, and that much bigger man had to bend the rules to beat him. Rhyno, the week before, was presented to look like a jobber. Benoit, this Monday, was not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vyce 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Winning and losing doesn't matter, it's how they are presented that is important. Rudo's been saying that all thread, and I even brought it up on the main site 18 months ago... Finally, someone chimes in with a sensible post - good job nikjohns! YOU PEOPLE AREN'T LISTENING. Rudo's argument was never "Benoit should not have lost. Benoit is demoted because he lost." The fact that he lost is unimportant. It was how he was PORTRAYED in the loss that is. He came into the match the fan favorite, he was presented as a bit of a chump, and by the end of the match he had most definitely been usurped by Batista. This is bad because: a) it pushes Benoit further down a roster that he was already sinking in and b) if the bookers had put forth just a tiny bit more effort they could have given some protection to Benoit AND still put over Batista, big time. If you want a clear example of how insignificant Benoit was portrayed, think about how the announcers didn't even mention the fact that Batista just beat the guy who HHH has never scored a clean pinfall over (maybe not even a "dirty" pinfall) all year. Benoit was nothing but an afterthought in that match - it was all about "Bah Gawd, that Batista's an animal!" EDIT: I don't get how Benoit was presented poorly. He lost to a much bigger man, and that much bigger man had to bend the rules to beat him. Rhyno, the week before, was presented to look like a jobber. Benoit, this Monday, was not. I've covered this one before in this thread. There was NO MENTION OF BATISTA BREAKING THE RULES. No mention of him using the exposed turnbuckle. Or, rather, JR mentioned it, but he didn't make an issue out of. JR sold the finish of the match not as "That damn Batista, he cheated to win!" but as "Look at the power of that monster, Batista!" If they HAD made an issue of Batista essentially cheating to win, then Benoit would have probably had some modicum of protection coming out of that match, but he didn't even get THAT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 my opinion of Benoit wasn't lessened at all...it's not his time to shine right now, big deal...they're trying to hype Batista up some more...big deal...you guys are waaaaay to into this smark thing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I wonder where the arguments were for REY MYSTERIO, a Cruiserweight, pinning the former WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero CLEAN last week on Smackdown. I think a guy who's barely 5'4" winning clean and decisive is much worse to someone in Eddie or Benoits position than to a guy who's 6'4", made of solid muscle, and is a beast (and also getting pushed). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 also, with all the verbal blowjobs Benoit gets here and everywhere else on a regular basis, I don't think him getting shunted down a notch on the card for awhile is going to kill his credibility at all...if the WWE feels the need, they'll push him right back up, that's how it goes... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dazed Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I don't get how Benoit was presented poorly. He lost to a much bigger man, and that much bigger man had to bend the rules to beat him. Rhyno, the week before, was presented to look like a jobber. Benoit, this Monday, was not. Benoit had his head jammed against the turnbuckle four or five times, and still tried to get up. That's Foleyesque determination and drive, yet it wasn't brought up at all. Batista is a heel (albeit going through the motions of a face turn), and his cheating wasn't brought up at all. It was all about bah gawd his strength. my opinion of Benoit wasn't lessened at all...it's not his time to shine right now, big deal...they're trying to hype Batista up some more...big deal...you guys are waaaaay to into this smark thing... If you don't care, don't shit on the discussion. Why wasn't your opinion of Benoit lessened? Did it remain the same or did he impress you? Why? I wonder where the arguments were for REY MYSTERIO, a Cruiserweight, pinning the former WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero CLEAN last week on Smackdown. I think a guy who's barely 5'4" winning clean and decisive is much worse to someone in Eddie or Benoits position than to a guy who's 6'4", made of solid muscle, and is a beast (and also getting pushed). That's because nobody watches SmackDown! Nah, I haven't seen it, so I won't comment. As has been previously stated though; it's not that Dave won, it's how WWE portrayed it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nl5xsk1 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 No mention of him using the exposed turnbuckle. Or, rather, JR mentioned it, but he didn't make an issue out of. JR sold the finish of the match not as "That damn Batista, he cheated to win!" but as "Look at the power of that monster, Batista!" If they HAD made an issue of Batista essentially cheating to win, then Benoit would have probably had some modicum of protection coming out of that match, but he didn't even get THAT. My thoughts are two-fold ... the first is that if someone needs JR and the King to hold their hand and explain that Batista just bent the rules to win, then their seats at the front of the short bus should be reserved. Plus, The days of the announcer adding to the match that way are long gone ... there was definitely a time that the announcer added something to the match (e.g. think of Foley's first book, where he had these visions of JR or Cornette hyping how amazing it was that he was taking this beating and surviving). These days, we're lucky that the announcers even give play-by-play, let alone add to match. the second thought is maybe the writers didn't care about keeping Benoit looking strong because that wasn't their goal. They don't care about keeping people looking good or protecting them unless that person is in their immediate plans. It wasn't long ago that Batista was getting pinned left and right ... why? because he wasn't in their plans. Now that it's his turn, it's time for someone else to get pinned. And, evidently, that person is Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 my opinion of Benoit wasn't lessened at all...it's not his time to shine right now, big deal...they're trying to hype Batista up some more...big deal...you guys are waaaaay to into this smark thing... If you don't care, don't shit on the discussion. Why wasn't your opinion of Benoit lessened? Did it remain the same or did he impress you? Why? My impression of Benoit is that he's a bad ass dude, great technical wrestler yadda yadda...it wasn't lessened because of his loss, everyone takes a loss here and there: Lesnar, Austin, Rock, HBK, HHH, UT, Bret Hart for example...they all remained strong competitors always at the top...so he lost, big deal... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I don't mind the Benoit loss, but I must contend the above point: UT in the last few years has only lost to my knowledge to Brock ONCE (after essentially squahing him the month before) and when it's 3 on 1 odds. I think it's better that they FINALLY gave Edge a win. Jesus had he won any matches since his turn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I don't mind the Benoit loss, but I must contend the above point: UT in the last few years has only lost to my knowledge to Brock ONCE (after essentially squahing him the month before) and when it's 3 on 1 odds. I think it's better that they FINALLY gave Edge a win. Jesus had he won any matches since his turn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 well I did say here and there, UT has done plenty of jobs in the past... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 One thing that can be said: UT is so protected, when someone DOES go over him fairly clean, it's big. I do think it helped Brock (I was worried when the aforementioned near-squash took place) and I remember when Rock pinned him in a handicap (Rock, Shamrock, Foley v UT and I think Kane?) It was pretty big, and sort of heralded Rock's assention to ME status. I don't think it's helped JBL because he needs so much help all the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 He doesn't need to be treated like god. Just like a main eventer. EXACTLY. A ME star should be treated as so, not put over people at his PURE expense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Maybe Benoit and Jericho are floundering around so that the matches can be watchable. Maybe because they have been depushed so many times they couldnt really care any more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 He doesn't need to be treated like god. Just like a main eventer. EXACTLY. A ME star should be treated as so, not put over people at his PURE expense. but how do you get a new star over without making a current star job? what's makes Batista a more believable threat? killing Stevie Richards or barely getting past Benoit? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 damn zyn, you are on a roll this morning... Actually, I was in the library, bored from study at 3 in the afternoon! My apologies for cramming the topic, was very bored though at the time! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 no I just thought it was funny...it was all good, you brought the content... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 It's threads like this that make me think that the internet is bad for wrestling; too many people feeding off each other, sending the paranoia skyrocketing upwards. I remember being young, and seeing the Road Warriors lose tag-titles to lesser teams (Varsity Club? Garvin & Regal??) without worrying them falling down the ladder. I remember Flair looking like shit night in and night out, and needing to cheat to retain his title without worrying about his spot. I remember Sting losing repeated title shots without being concerned when someone else became the top challenger for the belt for a while. But, now, one guy loses one match (or a series of matches) and it's the end of the world. It's not that bad ... does anyone think that even if Benoit wins last night that he'd be any higher in the eyes of the writers, fans, etc? No. It hasnt made him any lower than he already was, that is already down the food chain. It confirm a fact. What it did do was put Benoit out of the running of the World Title due to the way it was portrayed. It exposed Benoit and you cant expose what people consider your #2 face (although I believe #2 is highly debatable). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 Winning and losing doesn't matter, it's how they are presented that is important. Rudo's been saying that all thread, and I even brought it up on the main site 18 months ago... I don't get how Benoit was presented poorly. He lost to a much bigger man, and that much bigger man had to bend the rules to beat him. Rhyno, the week before, was presented to look like a jobber. Benoit, this Monday, was not. Agreed. But it could have been portrayed differently by commentars (the 2nd most important piece and most probably 1st due to their being the mouthpiece during a match) stating stuff like, Batista has found a way to counter the crossface and it involves brute strength, Batista will stop at nothing to win, etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 my opinion of Benoit wasn't lessened at all...it's not his time to shine right now, big deal...they're trying to hype Batista up some more...big deal...you guys are waaaaay to into this smark thing... It could just have been portrayed better IMHO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I wonder where the arguments were for REY MYSTERIO, a Cruiserweight, pinning the former WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero CLEAN last week on Smackdown. I think a guy who's barely 5'4" winning clean and decisive is much worse to someone in Eddie or Benoits position than to a guy who's 6'4", made of solid muscle, and is a beast (and also getting pushed). That was portrayed correctly, Rey outsmarted Eddie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 also, with all the verbal blowjobs Benoit gets here and everywhere else on a regular basis, I don't think him getting shunted down a notch on the card for awhile is going to kill his credibility at all...if the WWE feels the need, they'll push him right back up, that's how it goes... I find it very hard to compare Benoits work in RAW to that of his in SD! And this in no way means he should go back to SD! He was just booked better. For example, Brock showed how tough he was by making Benoit pass out and he won the match, but Benoit showed how he would never give up the hunt for the title. What upsets me is that the WWE has the chance to hit with little things but they miss so many times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 No mention of him using the exposed turnbuckle. Or, rather, JR mentioned it, but he didn't make an issue out of. JR sold the finish of the match not as "That damn Batista, he cheated to win!" but as "Look at the power of that monster, Batista!" If they HAD made an issue of Batista essentially cheating to win, then Benoit would have probably had some modicum of protection coming out of that match, but he didn't even get THAT. My thoughts are two-fold ... the first is that if someone needs JR and the King to hold their hand and explain that Batista just bent the rules to win, then their seats at the front of the short bus should be reserved. Plus, The days of the announcer adding to the match that way are long gone ... there was definitely a time that the announcer added something to the match (e.g. think of Foley's first book, where he had these visions of JR or Cornette hyping how amazing it was that he was taking this beating and surviving). These days, we're lucky that the announcers even give play-by-play, let alone add to match. the second thought is maybe the writers didn't care about keeping Benoit looking strong because that wasn't their goal. They don't care about keeping people looking good or protecting them unless that person is in their immediate plans. It wasn't long ago that Batista was getting pinned left and right ... why? because he wasn't in their plans. Now that it's his turn, it's time for someone else to get pinned. And, evidently, that person is Benoit. Yes, agreed, but JR and The King could have done their job. This wouldnt have only helped Benoit either, but also Batista, showing that he is inteligent and ruthless. Instead of them blabbing about their blasted debate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
{''({o..o})''} 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 You know, you can address multiple quotes in one post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Cucaracha 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I wonder where the arguments were for REY MYSTERIO, a Cruiserweight, pinning the former WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero CLEAN last week on Smackdown. I think a guy who's barely 5'4" winning clean and decisive is much worse to someone in Eddie or Benoits position than to a guy who's 6'4", made of solid muscle, and is a beast (and also getting pushed). That was portrayed correctly, Rey outsmarted Eddie. Yes, and Batista used an exposed turnbuckle to his advantage, which you could class as out-smarting. You could also say it was Flair-esque influence. To use something to your advantage, no matter how immoral. It seems the problem wasn't so much the booking (Batista over Benoit), but the fact that either JR and King are dogging it, the people feeding them the info they need to talk about were too concerned (and rightfully so, seeing as this push could be a make or break one with Orton's push not going perfectly) about getting Batista's image right and forgetting about the match or, most likely, a combination of the two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2005 I don't mind the Benoit loss, but I must contend the above point: UT in the last few years has only lost to my knowledge to Brock ONCE (after essentially squahing him the month before) and when it's 3 on 1 odds. I think it's better that they FINALLY gave Edge a win. Jesus had he won any matches since his turn? He also jobbed for JBL, if you could call that jobbing. I dont mind a wrestler who doesnt job (i.e. get squash) cause his 1st interest is himself, they should put each other over and if they are ME level be protected as much as possible whilst they do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
