Benoit vs. Triple H on Raw tommorow night

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

However, storyline wise, pretty much the only guy to consistently beat HHH throughout this year has been Benoit.

 

Realistically, none of those wins mattered and didn't help Benoit out a single bit.

 

Despite lots of chances, HHH hasn't beaten him in one whole year. He would be the ideal guy to wear HH down, maybe put a chink in his psyhcological armor.

 

I am not arguing with the storyline logic of it, I am arguing with the "lets fuck over Benoit" side of it. Though it is convenient that the storyline ended up with HHH getting his win back.

 

And he's not a "pawn".

 

You just said he'd be "the ideal guy to wear HHH down". Not take the title from HHH, but to "wear him down". Benoits purpose was to "wear him down". Right, that's not being a pawn.

 

Batista got to choose any man on RAW to have a shot on HHH, and he picked Benoit. In fact, sold correctly (which I will venture to say it proably wasn't), that means Batista thinks Benoit is the best man for the job - i.e. beating HHH. Doesn't scream 'midcard' to me.

 

He brought Benoit "up" to face HHH. Which nicely singles out that Benoit was "down". And Benoit failed. That screams midcard. Plus, storyline wise, why wouldn't Benoit be picked last since that is the date closest to WM? Wouldn't you put the best guy at the end, since it would be the toughest challenge?

 

And just by the way, HHH did in no way, shape or form destroy Benoit at SurSer. Benoit pretty much beat down HHH's whole team by himself, before falling to numbers and what may be the only sure-fire finisher left in the federation (next to the Tombstone). In fact, HHH didn't even pin him.

 

Wasn't Benoit eliminated first on the face side? Riiight.

[iliketurtles 0]

I thought the match was fucking awesome.

 

It felt like HHH hit me in the balls as well after that finish, however. Such a dissapointment.

[Guest Eric the Eagle]

The guy made HHH tap on Wrestlemania (which I'm 99 % sure is his first submisssion loss since he jumped to the main event) and kicked out of the Pedigree. I'd say, match-wise, Benoit has looked good as all fuck. In between might be another story.

 

 

Right, that's not being a pawn.

 

Batista maneuvering Benoit into a match to take down HHH is Benoit being a pawn. Batista getting to choose anyone to fight HHH and picking the one guy with a realistic hope of beating him is something else. It's not like Benoit's been outsmarted or is a henchman (guess I should have clarified my definition of "pawn" ). Besides, as far as I understood it, the title wasn't on the line.

 

Admittedly, not having seen the show, I didn't pick up that it was meant to happen every show. I thought it was a one-time deal. However, yes, I probably would have.

 

He brought Benoit "up" to face HHH. Which nicely singles out that Benoit was "down".

 

You lost me there. When did he "bring him up"? Who said that? If it was here on the forums... please. If it was the announcers, then honestly, you need to stop reading into things. Ever heard of "bringing up the big guns"? Do you think that means the big guns are less effective and on a lower level?

 

 

Benoit lost a match. A match that, judging by most reports I've read and most posts here, seems to have been quite close. He lost it to the guy that's been pushed as the most dominant, most successful, most dangerous guy in the entire buisness for the last four years or so.

 

Wow, he drew neck and neck with the absolute best (in Kayfaybe terms). He lost, though. Must be a midcarder.

 

What on Earth would putting Benoit over accomplish? Monday, he was part of a storyline between two other wrestlers, playing up old history (For WWE, last year is exactly that). Just being chosen for this means he is part of the big boys, the few who can actually go the distance with HHH (Kayfabe terms, again). There is a reason Batista didn't pick, say, Rosie. Everyone would have known that HHH would beat a midcarder. Him beating Benoit wasnt a foregone conclusion. Thus, he is not a midcarder. Had he been humiliated in the ring, that would be different, but apparently that's not what happened. If you really wanted to protect Benoit because he had something important to do, then pick someone else (which is what they didn't use Michaels or Orton, I'd wager).

 

Benoit, right now, is way above the midcard, even if he's not in the absolute upper echelon of main eventers. That's an important spot. He can meet and beat any main eventer at any time he can take and hold the title at a moment's notice, and he can still have exciting matches that aren't preordained conclusions with up-and-comers and midcarders, giving a needed rub to them. This is exactly where you best utilize someone like Benoit. It's where he should be.

 

 

 

Wasn't Benoit eliminated first on the face side? Riiight.

 

Yep. I fail to see how this is HHH destroying Benoit. Destroying a man is giving him close to zero offence, ignoring what little he has, and beating him easily with close to zero drama. This is not, at all, what happened on SurSer. He got eliminated after beating up the whole opposing team by himself.

 

At that point, Orton was still pretty much the golden boy, and then it was a toss-up between who went first of Benoit and Jericho. For the finish to be Orton vs Edge+HHH, the other two (I'm igoring Maven for obvious reasons), both Chrises had to go. Personally, I think Benoit looked stronger than Jericho that night.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The guy made HHH tap on Wrestlemania (which I'm 99 % sure is his first submisssion loss since he jumped to the main event) and kicked out of the Pedigree. I'd say, match-wise, Benoit has looked good as all fuck. In between might be another story.

 

Benoit could have beaten HHH in 7 seconds and it still wouldn't have mattered because THE FOLLOW UP IS THE STORY. This is why HHH can lose any time he wants and it won't matter. This is why he can lose 3 times in a row to Sheldon Benjamin and it won't matter. If there is no follow up, whatever happens becomes meaningless. What do you think will be the follow up here? Yeah, exactly. HHH and Batista are still mad at each other and Benoit is nowhere to be found.

 

Batista maneuvering Benoit into a match to take down HHH is Benoit being a pawn. Batista getting to choose anyone to fight HHH and picking the one guy with a realistic hope of beating him is something else. It's not like Benoit's been outsmarted or is a henchman (guess I should have clarified my definition of "pawn" ). Besides, as far as I understood it, the title wasn't on the line.

 

If we saw Batista going up to Benoit and saying "Chris, I need your help", that would have put Benoit in a power position. Instead Benoit is made weak here because he is simply in the crossfire between the two more important wrestlers. Hey, this sounds really familiar. Where have I heard this before? Hmm. Lemme think...

 

You lost me there. When did he "bring him up"? Who said that?

 

I said it. What was Benoit doing before the main event vs. HHH? In the midcard fighting goofs like Hassan and the placeholder champion Benjamin. So, Benoit was elevated from his midcard position to face HHH.

 

Ever heard of "bringing up the big guns"?

 

Benoit wasn't the big gun. If Benoit was a big gun then HHH would have been scared shitless. The big gun is Batista, Benoits more like a lil pebble being thrown at HHH to annoy him.

 

Do you think that means the big guns are less effective and on a lower level?

 

Yes. Particularly because Benoit wasn't a big gun.

 

Benoit lost a match. A match that, judging by most reports I've read and most posts here, seems to have been quite close.

 

Benoit is getting jerked around and is treated like nothing. Close match or not, at the end of the day, for one day, they decided to bring old Benoit up to the main event and then will send him down to the midcard the next day.

 

He lost it to the guy that's been pushed as the most dominant, most successful, most dangerous guy in the entire buisness for the last four years or so.

 

Yep, even when Benoit was champion HHH was still positioned as being more important than him.

 

Wow, he drew neck and neck with the absolute best (in Kayfaybe terms). He lost, though. Must be a midcarder.

 

Came up from the midcard, lost, is going back down to the midcard. Must be a midcarder.

 

What on Earth would putting Benoit over accomplish?

 

A new superstar?

 

Monday, he was part of a storyline between two other wrestlers, playing up old history (For WWE, last year is exactly that). Just being chosen for this means he is part of the big boys, the few who can actually go the distance with HHH (Kayfabe terms, again). There is a reason Batista didn't pick, say, Rosie. Everyone would have known that HHH would beat a midcarder. Him beating Benoit wasnt a foregone conclusion.

 

Um, yes it was. HHH still has 2 more matches to go, they wouldn't have him lose in his first match. He squeeks by because that's what he ALWAYS DOES. I don't give a shit about kayfabe reasons and whether it makes sense for the storyline, it makes Benoit look BAD. They shouldn't have done this 3 match thing in the first place, who wrote that in? Oh... wait... right....

 

Thus, he is not a midcarder.

 

Then why is he in the midcard?

 

Had he been humiliated in the ring, that would be different, but apparently that's not what happened.

 

Benoit failed to do his job, what would you call that?

 

Benoit, right now, is way above the midcard, even if he's not in the absolute upper echelon of main eventers.

 

He is in the midcard. How else would you define someone not being positioned in the hotspots of the show?

 

That's an important spot. He can meet and beat any main eventer at any time he can take and hold the title at a moment's notice, and he can still have exciting matches that aren't preordained conclusions with up-and-comers and midcarders, giving a needed rub to them.

 

And he'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, become an important character to the show. He's enhancement talent. Forever and always.

 

This is exactly where you best utilize someone like Benoit. It's where he should be.

 

Benoit could be so much more than that. Benoit has been able to bring out the most in crowds, he always puts the efforts in, he deserves to be made a big name superstar.

 

 

Yep. I fail to see how this is HHH destroying Benoit.

 

It made Benoit useless and ineffective. Hmm, kinda like his title reign.

 

Destroying a man is giving him close to zero offence, ignoring what little he has, and beating him easily with close to zero drama. This is not, at all, what happened on SurSer. He got eliminated after beating up the whole opposing team by himself.

 

Did he beat the whole opposing team by himself? After Benoit was eliminated they all went back to normal. Are you getting this yet? I've made the point a dozen times already. Destroying a man is making him worthless.

 

At that point, Orton was still pretty much the golden boy, and then it was a toss-up between who went first of Benoit and Jericho. For the finish to be Orton vs Edge+HHH, the other two (I'm igoring Maven for obvious reasons), both Chrises had to go. Personally, I think Benoit looked stronger than Jericho that night.

 

Wait.

 

Your point is "Benoit looked stronger than Jericho"?

 

I've wasted my time.

[CanadianChick 0]

Yeah, looking stronger than Jericho isn't exactly an accomplishment. Seriously, if Benoit isn't looking stronger than a guy who hasn't had an important win in god knows how long (I actually can't rack my mind and remember the last time to be quite honest), we have problems.

 

The match didn't do anything for anyone, storyline wise. It was a good match for the sake of having a good match. As Rudo is pointing out, both guys will be in the same positioning as last week, and the match will hardly be mentioned, therefore it's a wash. Very even-steven booking, which is quite annoying.

[Guest Rrrsh]

If Benoit wins the Ladder match and HHH retains, this was the best booked RAW ME in a while.

 

If Batista wins, this was a stupid match.

 

 

We will see....

[CanadianChick 0]

If Benoit wins the Ladder match and HHH retains, this was the best booked RAW ME in a while.

 

If Batista wins, this was a stupid match.

 

 

We will see....

I really don't think it matters, because unless they go back to this particular match and build upon it, it has no bearing to anything.

 

And really, what are the chances that both Triple H and Benoit will win? Technically, it's 1/12, and that seems about accurate to me.

[Guest Rrrsh]

If Benoit wins the Ladder match and HHH retains, this was the best booked RAW ME in a while.

 

If Batista wins, this was a stupid match.

 

 

We will see....

I really don't think it matters, because unless they go back to this particular match and build upon it, it has no bearing to anything.

 

And really, what are the chances that both Triple H and Benoit will win? Technically, it's 1/12, and that seems about accurate to me.

Well, I still think HHH-Batista is the hardest to pick of the matches that matter.

 

And I say its a clear Benoit-Edge-Kane and everyone else.

 

So, I don't think its that out of the question.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I don't think Benoit has a chance in the ladder match because they already used Benoit in building Batista up.

[CanadianChick 0]

Kane? Seriously? I actually think Christian has a better shot, because they are making him look like such a non-threat right now that he could be an unexpected win.

[Guest Rrrsh]

This is not a IC title or something worthless like that. Its a World Title Shot, thats a dangerous thing to do.

 

Maybe if he was a sympathetic face. But he is just a loser heel. He is Jericho.

 

 

 

I view it the other way around Rudo. Batista thinks Benoit is the biggest threat to HHH, so that automatically means, in my eyes, he is a legit threat. Combine that and the shit kicking he gave HHH in that match, I think he has a good shot. If Benoit didn't look good, fine. But he looked HELLA strong, IMO.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Here is how I would rank em.

 

1. Kane

2. Christian

3. Edge

4. Benoit

5. Jericho

6. Benjamin

 

With the bottom 3 called "no chance in fuck".

 

Kane is 1st because that's what they based the Batista push on - the face to face encounter during the battle royale where the crowd went nuts.

 

Christian is second because he gets the "unlikely winner" vote.

 

Edge is third because he's the highest heel in the match and has yet to face Batista 1 on 1. And if he did, I don't remember it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

They faces in the RAW where the JBL Limo tried to run over Batista.

[CanadianChick 0]

Yep, where Batista made Edge his bitch, pretty much.

 

But if Kane faces Batista next week, and Batista gets the title, will Kane really win too? Who wants to see *that* match more than once? It loses its appeal.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The proper psychology for "Benoit is HHH's biggest threat" would be to save him for LAST. Put HHH up against other wrestlers who have challenged him in the past (Jericho and Benjamin, for example) in hopes that they chip away at HHH, so that the last guy -Benoit- can rip right through him and leave him completely vunerable for a beating at WM. Of course, I think the whole idea sucks so I don't endorse this idea, BUT, if the theory is "Benoit can fuck HHH up", then that's how it would go.

 

I don't know how it made Benoit look strong when he lost. Last year he "won". This means that Benoit is worse now than he was last year.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Putting Kane in the 2nd match was a bit of a curveball and I'll have to see where they are going with it. If they do a screwy finish to build up "heat" between the two, then Kane is definitely winning the ladder match.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Benoit won all of last year, man-to-man.

 

HHH had to cheat.

 

 

Plus, Benoit looked stronger in the ring than anyone else in the comapny has vs HHH in a while.

[4hartthreat 0]

Rudo you keep saying this "Benoit shouldn't have been first" line over and over as a way to knock Benoit, but unless I am completely mistaken this is the ONLY hhh pick your poison match. After Batista faces Kane next week it will be over. It isn't a pick your opponent's opponent til mania thing, it was just a two week take turns picking a guy who can wear down your foe thing. So Benoit being Batista's choice DOES mean something. I think the match helped too, as Benoit was just beating the hell out of hhh. But I do agree with one thing, it isn't just the match it's the follow up. So if there is none, it was meaningless. And that is unfortunately what will likely happen....

[Precious Roy 0]

Batista maneuvering Benoit into a match to take down HHH is Benoit being a pawn. Batista getting to choose anyone to fight HHH and picking the one guy with a realistic hope of beating him is something else.

 

The match was on at 10:20 or so, that tells you how seriously they took it, and how seriously they treat Benoit. Realistic hope? Nah. Batista v. SNITSKY was the main-event! I know Batista segments have been grabbing ratings, but give me a break! If they wanted to put over even the vaguest possibility of Benoit winning that match would have ended the show, not a Batista squash.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

HHH came out like 20 minutes later and he was ok. You'd think that after this awesome beating Benoit gave him, that HHH would be a lil bit sore? Nope. Tired? Nope. Showing any injury at all? NOPE.

[clean rob 0]

The proper psychology for "Benoit is HHH's biggest threat" would be to save him for LAST. 

Well, technically speaking, he did. What with this being the only one of HHH's 'Pick Your Poison' matches.

 

I don't know how it made Benoit look strong when he lost. 

It didn't make him look strong when he "lost". What made him look strong was the fact that he was beating the piss out of HHH for the majority of the match, and HHH had to resort to a low blow to win, because he knew he couldn't beat Benoit clean. HHH's lack of selling later is another story - that was annoying.

 

I would have liked to see Benoit win, but it seems like a logical decision to put over the guy who's going into the main event of WM - probably to put over a man who the company is banking on to become a big star.

[iliketurtles 0]

I agree with you guys.

 

HHH should of had to crawl to the back.

[Myxamatosis 0]

And come out later in a sling....

 

Then, for the next seven weeks.

 

Then, retire due to injuries.....

 

and die three months later.

 

Yeah, that's how it should've went. Fuck the bookers!

[Sass 0]

Bret Hart limped around on a bad ankle for 3 or 4 Nitros after Lex Luger whacked him with a bat in the epic Hogan/Flair/Hart vs. Sting/Luger/DDP tag team match, which I thought really got the injury across well. HHH wearing a neck brace on RAW next week while watching Batista vs. Kane would be primo booking if it was because of Benoit's CF. That'd be cool, but it'd be great if he sold the injury going into Mania. Then, if HHH lost, he could file a legitimate gripe about being in "poor condition to perform" and petition for a rematch with Big Dave at the next PPV. Intrigue and smart booking is what HHH needs if he's going to position himself as the top dog of the WWE. He hasn't had any of it since beating Big Show on RAW in '99.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

^ Nay, he beat Show in the 1st Raw of 2000. I'll never forget JR bellowing out, "BAH GAWD! THE BIG SHOW IS GOING INTO THE NEW MILLENNIUM AS WWF CHAMPION!!!" after Show upset HHH on the last Raw of 1999.

 

Sorry for the nitpick.

[pochorenella 0]

HHH did wear a sling on RAW after the WManiaXX match, IIRC, so he sold the damage the crossface made pretty well.

[Sass 0]

Damn, I forgot how Big Show went into '00 as the champ. Thanks MM. I still remember how Kane nearly got him up into the Tombstone position in a title match the two had on RAW during Show's first reign. I thought that was an insane, especially since it was being done on the floor outside of the ring.

[King Cucaracha 0]

It was an entertaining match.

 

That's all that matters to me. I hardly think Benoit was made to look weak, but then again, I'm not analysing and counter analysing like some people. Let's just hope all the people watching Raw didn't do the same as Rudo did, otherwise Benoit would be screwed, huh?

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Damn, I forgot how Big Show went into '00 as the champ. Thanks MM. I still remember how Kane nearly got him up into the Tombstone position in a title match the two had on RAW during Show's first reign. I thought that was an insane, especially since it was being done on the floor outside of the ring.

Fun stuff indeed. The best thing about having a midcard guy as champ (Show, Jericho, Angle's 1st, *ahem* Benoit *ahem*) is that it gives the illusion that damn near anyone can go ahead and score win the championship from a guy who was a relative scrub mere weeks before. Of course, it's terrible for business but entertaining to me. And for the love of Pete, that's all that matters.

[Guest Eric the Eagle]

First of all, to get the SurSer stuff out of the way; Benoit looked stronger than Jericho in that match. Since your main argument for him being "destroyed" there is that he went out first, and Jericho lasted longer (and yet, in my opinion, looked weaker), it seemed to be a valid point.

 

 

 

It IS actually possible to look strong even if you lose. Monday, Benoit looked strong by beating HHH from pillar to post, before losing to dirty tactics because the champ couldn't do it any other way. Thus, it follows that he is as good or better than the champ. Thus, he looks strong. This can't be that hard to grasp?

 

The problem here seems more to be people confusing "could have looked even stronger" with "looked weak". I'm not in any way arguing that Benoit looked as strong Monday as if he potentially could have. But right now, storyline-wise, Benoit is chasing a title shot, and HHH is being built up as a strong champ to make a win for Batista mean that much more. That means putting HHH over here is the right booking. That doesn't mean Benoit is suddenly nevermore a threath to HHH. Honestly, if losing a match to the champion means you're not a main eventer, then the number of main eventers would be about, say 1, at any given time (whch, of course, occasionally hasn't been far from the truth in the WWE, but that's another story).