Some interesting Survivor Series 1997 stuff

[JoeDirt 0]

Somehwat related question: What's the story behind HBK walking out after getting into a backstage fight with Bret when he was tag champ, forcing them to vacate his half of the belt and do the whole tournament thing that ended with Dude Love as a tag champ?

[Precious Roy 0]

I mean Bret also basically refused to turn full heel a(Just in the US) before this.

 

And without that refusal you lose one of the hottest angles in history, so what's your point? Bret was SMART and the shit he asked for made sense in context, and helped the business as well as himself. He was looking to have the best of both worlds, and the fact that he wasn't completely selfish like Shawn is what hurt him. The agreed upon plan of a DQ and the drop at the next PPV kept him strong in his home country, but would still have ended in Bret jobbing, and would have produced a hot month of TV to boot. Shawn wasn't looking out for the business at all with his political maneuvering, just himself.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Somehwat related question: What's the story behind HBK walking out after getting into a backstage fight with Bret when he was tag champ, forcing them to vacate his half of the belt and do the whole tournament thing that ended with Dude Love as a tag champ?

Shawn mouthed off to Bret one time too many, and Bret took him down and yanked out a couple of large chunks of hair and gave Shawn a few good bruises as well. It got broken up pretty quickly, but not as fast as it could have been, if you know what I mean.

[Precious Roy 0]

Somehwat related question: What's the story behind HBK walking out after getting into a backstage fight with Bret when he was tag champ, forcing them to vacate his half of the belt and do the whole tournament thing that ended with Dude Love as a tag champ?

Bret tore a chunk of hair out of his head

[JoeDirt 0]

Somehwat related question: What's the story behind HBK walking out after getting into a backstage fight with Bret when he was tag champ, forcing them to vacate his half of the belt and do the whole tournament thing that ended with Dude Love as a tag champ?

Shawn mouthed off to Bret one time too many, and Bret took him down and yanked out a couple of large chunks of hair and gave Shawn a few good bruises as well. It got broken up pretty quickly, but not as fast as it could have been, if you know what I mean.

So he just refused to wrestle? Any idea what plans (if any) they had with the HBK/Austin tag team, or was Michaels walking out not that big a deal for them creatively at the time?

 

As far as Survivor Series, if I was Vince I would have had a no contest finish at Survivor Series, put the title on Taker at the MSG show six days later, and tape that match to air on the RAW eight days after Survivor Series. Then HBK could win the title either at the DX PPV or in the casket match with Kane's help at the Rumble. Seems to make sense to me and be easier than the risk he took in screwing Bret over.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Somehwat related question: What's the story behind HBK walking out after getting into a backstage fight with Bret when he was tag champ, forcing them to vacate his half of the belt and do the whole tournament thing that ended with Dude Love as a tag champ?

Shawn mouthed off to Bret one time too many, and Bret took him down and yanked out a couple of large chunks of hair and gave Shawn a few good bruises as well. It got broken up pretty quickly, but not as fast as it could have been, if you know what I mean.

If Hart did that for just shawn being a total ass, I can imagine what would've happend if he had gotten his hands on Shawn after the Montreal incident.

 

(imagines someone blowing a horn while they lower Shawns casket into the ground)

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

So he just refused to wrestle? Any idea what plans (if any) they had with the HBK/Austin tag team, or was Michaels walking out not that big a deal for them creatively at the time?

 

As far as Survivor Series, if I was Vince I would have had a no contest finish at Survivor Series, put the title on Taker at the MSG show six days later, and tape that match to air on the RAW eight days after Survivor Series. Then HBK could win the title either at the DX PPV or in the casket match with Kane's help at the Rumble. Seems to make sense to me and be easier than the risk he took in screwing Bret over.

So he just refused to wrestle? Any idea what plans (if any) they had with the HBK/Austin tag team, or was Michaels walking out not that big a deal for them creatively at the time?

 

Shawn walked out of the building that night, about 15 minutes before Raw was to go live, and they had to re-write Raw, which Shawn was to be a big part of, in order to start building up to the Calgary Stampede PPV. As he was leaving, Shawn said he was going to fly down to Boston, where Nitro was taking place, and that he'd show up on Nitro. Shawn refused to come back to the company at first, claiming an unsafe working environment.

 

As far as Survivor Series, if I was Vince I would have had a no contest finish at Survivor Series, put the title on Taker at the MSG show six days later, and tape that match to air on the RAW eight days after Survivor Series.

 

Vince didn't want to do it at MSG, because it would have cost something like $50,000, because of the fees involved in taping something at MSG.

[Jericholic82 0]

In hinsight the scewing helped the WWF most. Vince was able to transform into the Mr. Mcmahon eveil boss character, which gave Austin his enemy and made the WWF so big in 98

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

I mean Bret also basically refused to turn full heel a(Just in the US) before this.

 

And without that refusal you lose one of the hottest angles in history, so what's your point? Bret was SMART and the shit he asked for made sense in context, and helped the business as well as himself. He was looking to have the best of both worlds, and the fact that he wasn't completely selfish like Shawn is what hurt him. The agreed upon plan of a DQ and the drop at the next PPV kept him strong in his home country, but would still have ended in Bret jobbing, and would have produced a hot month of TV to boot. Shawn wasn't looking out for the business at all with his political maneuvering, just himself.

Also compare it to Shawn's own turn that fall. In Shadows its made to look like HBK was being a total spotlight hog with the seeds of his turn starting at SummerSlam

 

Granted HBK was always better as a heel than a face (prime example being his main run with the title (March 96 to Nov 96) was poorly received) and can pull off turns more effectivley than Bret could (basically Shawn didn't have to turn his character around the way Bret did) so Shawn's "turning on Taker" was seen more of taking the spotlight away from Bret winning the title and starting the HBK turn and putting HBK in a position to outshine the champion as both would be heels for the forseeable future

 

Also Bret always thought that the heel turn would effectivley kill his "Hitman" character in the States, and while this can never be fully proven (in WCW he turned too often to even register anything other than respect heat) Bret did feel that in some ways the turn was Vince's way of a slow burn towards his eventual leaving the company

 

Steve

[Slayer 0]

Quick question: How the hell was Bret going to pull off a face turn while still in Canada (Cornwall or Ottawa)? If he declared new found love for the US and A he would have been boo'd out of the building.

Oh come on, you guys don't hate us THAT much

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(...otherwise you wouldn't keep trying to be like us)

[chaosrage 0]

So more affirmation...  Michaels is an ass.  I can't see how anyone would take his side on this anymore.

This is nothing new. It's all OFN. Michaels and Vince were still completely in the right. Bret was leaving on his own free will, there's no way they should have to rearrange their shows to protect a guy LEAVING for the competition. Bret had reasonable creative control. Refusing to job to the top guy at a PPV after Bret and Canada won all the time that year is not reasonable. Bret and Canada already won Canadian Stampede, the flag match on Raw, the flag match at Bad Blood. Bret made the Patriot submit clean at Ground Zero, beat Austin every time they faced each other, and got the world title from the Undertaker at Summerslam. But oh, losing to Shawn at survivor series would have been too much of a letdown for Canada and he couldn't do that. However he offered to lose to Shamrock or Taker (which would have made no sense) in a 4-way at a meaningless IYH PPV. What a generous guy! He also offered to lose it to the Brooklyn Brawler. Well that makes everything okay. I don't know why Vince didn't go with that. Maybe the Brooklyn Brawler could have main evented WM.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

You do realise that Bret did eventually agree to even lose to Shawn clean, even though Shawn had repeatedly stated he would never job to Bret, or anyone else in the company for that matter ?

[iliketurtles 0]

It's kinda funny you went on that rant and it had nothing to do with why Shawn Michaels was right. Let alone anything to do with Shawn Michaels.

[chaosrage 0]

You do realise that Bret did eventually agree to even lose to Shawn clean, even though Shawn had repeatedly stated he would never job to Bret, or anyone else in the company for that matter ?

That's what I thought but Meltzer says right there that by Survivor Series he would only drop it to Shawn in december if Shawn put him over first. Even so, that doesn't make it much better. It would be like HHH refusing to put over Benoit or Batista at WM and instead wanting to do it on a Raw or at Backlash in a 4 way.

[chaosrage 0]

It's kinda funny you went on that rant and it had nothing to do with why Shawn Michaels was right. Let alone anything to do with Shawn Michaels.

The rant had to do with why Vince was right. Shawn was right because Vince was right and doing what he wanted.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

You do realise that Bret did eventually agree to even lose to Shawn clean, even though Shawn had repeatedly stated he would never job to Bret, or anyone else in the company for that matter ?

That's what I thought but Meltzer says right there that by Survivor Series he would only drop it to Shawn in december if Shawn put him over first. Even so, that doesn't make it much better. It would be like HHH refusing to put over Benoit or Batista at WM and instead wanting to do it on a Raw or at Backlash in a 4 way.

That's what I thought but Meltzer says right there that by Survivor Series he would only drop it to Shawn in december if Shawn put him over first.

 

Remember that Shawn was supposed to put Bret over earlier in the year at WM XIII, but Shawn ducked out of that job too. If I was asked to put a guy over who had, not only ducked out of doing a job to me, but also had refused to do any jobs to anyone else at all, I wouldn't want to do it either.

 

It would be like HHH refusing to put over Benoit or Batista at WM and instead wanting to do it on a Raw or at Backlash in a 4 way.

 

Not really, because Bret had the contractual right to veto any finish presented to him. Shawn never had such a right when he was always getting out of doing jobs.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's kinda funny you went on that rant and it had nothing to do with why Shawn Michaels was right. Let alone anything to do with Shawn Michaels.

The rant had to do with why Vince was right. Shawn was right because Vince was right and doing what he wanted.

Shawn was right because Vince was right ?

 

So, how was Shawn right in refusing to do jobs for anyone at all because Vince was right in doing what he did to Bret ?

[chaosrage 0]

Remember that Shawn was supposed to put Bret over earlier in the year at WM XIII, but Shawn ducked out of that job too. If I was asked to put a guy over who had, not only ducked out of doing a job to me, but also had refused to do any jobs to anyone else at all, I wouldn't want to do it either.

Remember that Shawn got injured?

 

Not really, because Bret had the contractual right to veto any finish presented to him. Shawn never had such a right when he was always getting out of doing jobs.

 

Like Vince said, refusing to lose the title to Shawn at his last major PPV wasn't reasonable.

 

Shawn was right because Vince was right ?

 

So, how was Shawn right in refusing to do jobs for anyone at all because Vince was right in doing what he did to Bret ?

Um, he wasn't. No one was talking about that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Remember that Shawn was supposed to put Bret over earlier in the year at WM XIII, but Shawn ducked out of that job too. If I was asked to put a guy over who had, not only ducked out of doing a job to me, but also had refused to do any jobs to anyone else at all, I wouldn't want to do it either.

Remember that Shawn got injured?

 

Not really, because Bret had the contractual right to veto any finish presented to him. Shawn never had such a right when he was always getting out of doing jobs.

 

Like Vince said, refusing to lose the title to Shawn at his last major PPV wasn't reasonable.

Remember that Shawn got injured?

 

Total work. Shawn could go fine. He just didn't want to do a job to Bret. Go look it up.

 

Like Vince said, refusing to lose the title to Shawn at his last major PPV wasn't reasonable.

 

As was mentioned in the very first post in this thread, SurSer wasn't going to be Bret's last PPV. It was meant to be, and was agreed upon, to be the December PPV, where Bret would lose to either Undertaker or Shamrock in the 4-way, with Shawn eventually winning the belt at the end of the match

[chaosrage 0]

Total work. Shawn could go fine. He just didn't want to do a job to Bret. Go look it up.

How do you know he could work fine? Even Bret said on one of those shoot tapes that he was starting to believe him before he came back too fast.

 

As was mentioned in the very first post in this thread, SurSer wasn't going to be Bret's last PPV. It was meant to be, and was agreed upon, to be the December PPV, where Bret would lose to either Undertaker or Shamrock in the 4-way, with Shawn eventually winning the belt at the end of the match

 

last major PPV

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Total work. Shawn could go fine. He just didn't want to do a job to Bret. Go look it up.

How do you know he could work fine? Even Bret said on one of those shoot tapes that he was starting to believe him before he came back too fast.

As I said, go and some very basic research. Shawn was meant to lose the WWF Title to Sid at the Thursday Raw special, and then lose to Bret at WM XIII. Shawn ducked out of those two jobs by claiming his knee was bad. It won't be that hard to look up.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I love Shawn jumping down the stiars at the Slammy's prior to WM13. THat's the sign of a serious knee injury.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Hell, if you ask Shawn himself now that he has turned his life around he will probably admit most of this stuff.

[Guest MikeSC]

What the fuck is Shawn's problem?

Shawn wasn't leaving and Bret was. It'd be idiotic to job the guy who's staying to the guy who's leaving.

-=Mike

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

What the fuck is Shawn's problem?

Shawn wasn't leaving and Bret was. It'd be idiotic to job the guy who's staying to the guy who's leaving.

-=Mike

That's just a coincidence. Shawn refused to job 9 months earlier too, when nobody knew Bret was leaving. Your statement is Vince's motive, not Shawn's.

 

Also remember that it took Undertaker to get him to job to Austin at Wrestlemania XIV, and Austin was the guaranteed next big thing at that point. Had Austin not won at XIV, the WWF might have gone out like WCW. They never ended the streak until after he won the title.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Also remember that it took Undertaker to get him to job to Austin at Wrestlemania XIV, and Austin was the guaranteed next big thing at that point. Had Austin not won at XIV, the WWF might have gone out like WCW. They never ended the streak until after he won the title.

I never heard that, what's the story there?

[The Tino Standard 0]

Here's a thought I haven't seen mentioned yet: Bret Hart had creative control for the final 30 days he was with the WWF. He was also scheduled to work matches past Survivor Series for another month, leading, presumably, to the next PPV.

 

Anybody have a timeline on how that would've played out? Depending on how long he was supposed to keep working after SurSer, that whole "final 30 days" clause might not even have been applicable at SurSer.

[Jericholic82 0]

do you remember the show when raw finally beat nitro? It was the night Austin challenged vince to a match with one arm tied behind his back. If the Evil Mr Mcmahon never came about, would they have broken the streak?

[Guest LooneyTune]

I guess Shawn had a burst of no-sell power he suddenly is fueled with at any given time when jumping down the stairs a short 4 weeks after his career ending, life-time suffering knee injury at the Slammies. God damn, I hate these fucking Shawn Michaels defenders when facts are staring, slapping, and pissing in their faces.

[Jericholic82 0]

I guess Shawn had a burst of no-sell power he suddenly is fueled with at any given time when jumping down the stairs a short 4 weeks after his career ending, life-time suffering knee injury at the Slammies. God damn, I hate these fucking Shawn Michaels defenders when facts are staring, slapping, and pissing in their faces.

Yea but he did sell the kneww while walking to the ringside at wm 13 weird huh? even weirder was I didnt even notice it, as a mark back then who thought he was really hurt.