Some interesting Survivor Series 1997 stuff

[LessonInMachismo 0]

Also remember that it took Undertaker to get him to job to Austin at Wrestlemania XIV, and Austin was the guaranteed next big thing at that point.  Had Austin not won at XIV, the WWF might have gone out like WCW.  They never ended the streak until after he won the title.

I never heard that, what's the story there?

Shawn was trying to back out of doing the job to Austin at XIV, going so far that he said he was going to turn the main event into a shoot. The story goes that Taker told him that if he wasn't going to be jobbing out in the ring, he would be jobbing out in the parking lot when he got back. This incident has been confirmed by numerous sources, including I believe, Taker himself.

 

Hunter's Torn Quad knows more about it than I do. I'm sure he could describe it in more detail.

In the run up to WM XIV, Shawn started making noise about not dropping the WWF Title to Austin. This continued up until the event itself. Before the match, Undertaker went to the gorilla position, where the wrestlers are right before they enter the areana, and began taping his fists up. He told Shawn point blank that if he didn't do the job in the ring, he'd be doing the job the moment he stepped back through the curtains.

Why is everyone afraid of Mean Ole Mark? Is he legit tough, or just big and scary?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Why is everyone afraid of Mean Ole Mark? Is he legit tough, or just big and scary?

Back then, it was probably a bit of both.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Shawn's ego at the time was incredible. I don't even know how Undertaker worked with him, but looking at the results in their feud, (No contest, Michaels cheap pin, Michaels cheap casket win) it looked like Shawn truly meant he wasn't going to do jobs for anyone.

 

Michaels was sitting in the lockerroom and he didn't know if he was going to do the job or not. Nevermind his back was destroyed, he still didn't want to put anyone over.

 

Didn't one of the Harris brothers choke Shawn out?

Not just ANYONE, he didn't want to put over STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN who was going to become ONE OF THE TOP FIVE BIGGEST WRESTLERS OF ALL-TIME at the BIGGEST EVENT OF THE YEAR at the beginning of the WWF boom.

Yeah. I truly believe that if Austin jobbed at Wrestlemania XIV, that the company would not be around today. It would be the modern day equivalent of when the AWA refused to give Hogan the title.

 

Back then, it was probably a bit of both.

 

That and Shawn isn't exactly compared to someone like Bradshaw when it comes to toughness.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I think its really time to get over Montreal already. I mean I was a huge Bret Fan back in the day, but hey if you're going to place blame here, blame Vince or Bischoff for his past actions influencing Vince.

 

From what I just saw, the fault was completely on Shawn Michaels. There is no flip side, it was all Shawn. If Shawn agrees to the deal of the match ending in a DQ then there is never any talk of this and the Hitman is in the company to this day in some form.

 

And you can bet Shawn let his hatred of Bret extend into WCW where Nash and Hall had basically completely control of the company.

 

I hope Bret does come back one day to the WWE, and sucker punches Shawn right in the middle of the ring on RAW and walks out. And if Vince walks out, punch him in the face as well.

 

Shawn Michaels got no punishment for Montreal. Not a god damn thing. Vince got punched, Michaels got off clean. And making Davey Boy lose a match he dedicated to his sister who is dying of CANCER?!?!? There may be no scum lower than HBK.

There is no lower scum than HBK? Get a fukin clue.

 

A: If I was Shawn, I wouldnt have jobbed to Hart first. I wouldnt trust him to give me the job back. He is leaving, why would he bother? Hart is definatly getting painted as an angel here when it surely does not deserve it. Both guys had major heat with each other and neither guy should have trusted either guy to put the other guy over. That just would make no sense.

 

B: Why was that Euro match booked anyways? Everyone and thier dog should have known that Shawn wouldnt job to DBS. He was getting a World Title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV, why should he lose to a midcarder who wasn't the third guy in his own stable. If they wanted Bulldog to look strong in England, give him someone else, Shawn shoudl never do that job.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

A: If I was Shawn, I wouldnt have jobbed to Hart first. I wouldnt trust him to give me the job back. He is leaving, why would he bother? Hart is definatly getting painted as an angel here when it surely does not deserve it. Both guys had major heat with each other and neither guy should have trusted either guy to put the other guy over. That just would make no sense.

 

B: Why was that Euro match booked anyways?  Everyone and thier dog should have known that Shawn wouldnt job to DBS. He was getting a World Title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV, why should he lose to a midcarder who wasn't the third guy in his own stable. If they wanted Bulldog to look strong in England, give him someone else, Shawn shoudl never do that job.

A: Bret might not be a saint, but he's a lot more trustworthy than Shawn was at that time. As for why he'd do the job in return, it would be because he'd be professional about it. All he asked was that Shawn was professional first.

 

B: As is mentioned in the first post, the company wanted to show everyone that Shawn really was a professional, and that he would do the job he was asked to do. They felt Shawn would do what they asked him to. Obviously, they were wrong.

 

As for Shawn being scum, he knew that Davey Boy had dedicated the match to his dying sister when he refused to do the job. Also, Shawn waited until almost the last minute to state he would not do the job.

[Jericholic82 0]

I would have fired him on the spot for refusing to job to austin.

[Naked Snake 0]

I would have fired him on the spot for refusing to job to austin.

Shawn had Vince by the balls. You couldn't fire Shawn because you needed him in that spot. Remember in 1997, he screwed up the booking for Mania and the buyrates were shit. With all that money invested in this Mania (specifically Tyson) you had to have the event go on as planned/built up.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I think Bret was pretty childish about some of the things that led up to everything but Shawn Michaels was childish AND unprofessional.

[Guest Rrrsh]

A: If I was Shawn, I wouldnt have jobbed to Hart first. I wouldnt trust him to give me the job back. He is leaving, why would he bother? Hart is definatly getting painted as an angel here when it surely does not deserve it. Both guys had major heat with each other and neither guy should have trusted either guy to put the other guy over. That just would make no sense.

 

B: Why was that Euro match booked anyways?  Everyone and thier dog should have known that Shawn wouldnt job to DBS. He was getting a World Title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV, why should he lose to a midcarder who wasn't the third guy in his own stable. If they wanted Bulldog to look strong in England, give him someone else, Shawn shoudl never do that job.

A: Bret might not be a saint, but he's a lot more trustworthy than Shawn was at that time. As for why he'd do the job in return, it would be because he'd be professional about it. All he asked was that Shawn was professional first.

 

B: As is mentioned in the first post, the company wanted to show everyone that Shawn really was a professional, and that he would do the job he was asked to do. They felt Shawn would do what they asked him to. Obviously, they were wrong.

 

As for Shawn being scum, he knew that Davey Boy had dedicated the match to his dying sister when he refused to do the job. Also, Shawn waited until almost the last minute to state he would not do the job.

See, you say that Bret would return the job because he is a professional, yet he got into a fight with the same man 5 months earlier. That is hardly professional. Both men were hardly professional. Was Shawn worse than Bret? Yah, easily. But I think neitehr guy was trustworthy then. And, Bret was leaving, so you gotta do what ya gotta do.

 

With Bulldog, I think the WWE managemnet was just stupid to book that then. Without viewing that political aspects of it, someone like Shawn should not job to someone like Bulldog, no matter where it is. Yah, Shawn was a dick, everyone knows that. I am just saying, I think it was a stupid idea for that match to be booked in the first place.

[Naked Snake 0]

From Meltzer, regarding that European title match

 

 

"September 20, 1997: About one hour before the beginning of the PPV show in Birmingham, England, McMahon approached Davey Boy Smith and asked him to put over Shawn Michaels that night for the European title. Smith was apparently shocked, having been told all along in the build-up of the show, that Michaels was going to do a job for him, since Europe was promised to be “his territory”. The explanation, which made and still makes logical business sense, is that they wanted to build for a bigger show - a second PPV show from Manchester, England, Smith’s former home town, where Smith would regain the title - the same scenario the WWF did to draw 60,000 fans in San Antonio with Michaels in the other role working a program with Sycho Sid. So while it all made sense, it was rather strange he wasn't approached with this idea until just before the start of the show. At around this same time period, McMahon approached Hart about working with Michaels. Hart said that he had a problem with that since Michaels had still never really apologized to him for the Sunny days comment and said it would be hard to trust somebody like that in the ring and due to their past, and told McMahon that he would figure that Michaels would have the same concerns, since a few weeks earlier, after first making it clear he would never work with anyone in the Hart Foundation, Michaels had finally agreed to work with only Smith, saying he still couldn’t trust Bret or Owen"

 

The European title match made sense as to why it was booked, after reading that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

See, you say that Bret would return the job because he is a professional, yet he got into a fight with the same man 5 months earlier. That is hardly professional. Both men were hardly professional. Was Shawn worse than Bret? Yeah, easily. But I think neitehr guy was trustworthy then. And, Bret was leaving, so you gotta do what ya gotta do.

Shawn had constantly been unprofessional towards Bret, and had repeatedly said and done things to wind him up. Do you really find it surprising that Bret eventually snapped ? To use that as any kind of proof or indication that Bret was unprofessional is absurd. All it shows is that Bret had a breaking point towards Shawn's behavior, and he couldn't keep quiet any longer.

 

As for how trustworthy either man was, especially during this time period, Bret was easily far above Shawn.

[iliketurtles 0]

Why is everyone afraid of Mean Ole Mark? Is he legit tough, or just big and scary?

Would you mess with the guy? Look at him.

 

If he wasn't a wrestler he'd probably go kill people for a living.

[Jericholic82 0]

I would have fired him on the spot for refusing to job to austin.

Shawn had Vince by the balls. You couldn't fire Shawn because you needed him in that spot. Remember in 1997, he screwed up the booking for Mania and the buyrates were shit. With all that money invested in this Mania (specifically Tyson) you had to have the event go on as planned/built up.

Well I meant that I would tell him he must job or hes fired. obviously the match ha dbeen hyped

[iliketurtles 0]

And the only reason they told Davey Boy that was because Michaels was refusing to job and they needed an excuse.

 

Since Michaels has come back I've given him the benefit of the doubt he's changed his ways (and I respect his ability a lot more), but man.

 

He did some damage in his time that's unforgiveable.

[Guest BrokenWings]

Why is everyone afraid of Mean Ole Mark?  Is he legit tough, or just big and scary?

Would you mess with the guy? Look at him.

 

If he wasn't a wrestler he'd probably go kill people for a living.

I believe he said on OTR before Mania 17 that before becoming a wrestler he was a money collector, and would go to people's houses to rough them up.

 

So...yeah.

[iggymcfly 0]

OK, one more time on the screwjob: If Bret was pissed off about Montreal, it was obviously because he didn't want to lose the belt to Shawn ever and wanted to vacate the title instead of jobbing it.

 

And how is this obvious, you ask?

 

Because when Bret lost the title, it was the weakest job imaginable. It was obvious to everyone that watched the PPV that Bret never really submitted, and in kayfabe terms, there really wasn't any reason that match would put Shawn above Bret. The only thing it did was protect the integrity of the title by not letting someone go to WCW without losing the title.

 

Now, as for the modern-day Shawn Michaels, he's certainly changed. The reason he got the job back from Edge is because he was in one of the sub-main events of Wrestlemania that they actually expected to draw money, and he needed to be kept reasonably strong. I bet if you look at his PPV record over the last year, it's something like 3-9.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Assuming your scenario was correct, how did it protect the integrity of the title when the guy winning it obviously didn't beat the champion ?

 

As for Shawn needing to be kept strong, that's a good one. He's over enough that he could have afforded to have lost the match thanks to Kurt interfering, which itself would have gotten his WM match even more.

[Guest Rrrsh]

See, you say that Bret would return the job because he is a professional, yet he got into a fight with the same man 5 months earlier. That is hardly professional. Both men were hardly professional. Was Shawn worse than Bret? Yeah, easily. But I think neitehr guy was trustworthy then. And, Bret was leaving, so you gotta do what ya gotta do.

Shawn had constantly been unprofessional towards Bret, and had repeatedly said and done things to wind him up. Do you really find it surprising that Bret eventually snapped ? To use that as any kind of proof or indication that Bret was unprofessional is absurd. All it shows is that Bret had a breaking point towards Shawn's behavior, and he couldn't keep quiet any longer.

 

As for how trustworthy either man was, especially during this time period, Bret was easily far above Shawn.

Just beacuse Shawn was far less trustworthy than Bret (which I agree with), does not mean that Bret could be trusted. Bret dosn't get a pass cuz Shawn is a uber-dick.

 

And, Bret snapped. Course I don't blame him. But look what he has become, a disgustingly bitter man. So, in reality, I think Bret would have forgoe any professionalism he had for Shawn due to his hate for him. I think Shawn was Bret exception, which agian I don't blame hin for. But, I still think it was there, so it was smart to screw him.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Assuming your scenario was correct, how did it protect the integrity of the title when the guy winning it obviously didn't beat the champion ?

 

As for Shawn needing to be kept strong, that's a good one. He's over enough that he could have afforded to have lost the match thanks to Kurt interfering, which itself would have gotten his WM match even more.

SCREWJOBS KILL WRESTLING.

 

 

Never use a screwjob as a better case.

[Precious Roy 0]

without viewing that political aspects of it, someone like Shawn should not job to someone like Bulldog, no matter where it is.

 

You can't be serious....

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

As for Shawn needing to be kept strong, that's a good one. He's over enough that he could have afforded to have lost the match thanks to Kurt interfering, which itself would have gotten his WM match even more.

Never use a screwjob as a better case.

Then I guess you're ignoring the fact that Kurt costing Shawn the match would have built up Shawn's match with Kurt, which would have had a clean finish, so the fans would ultimately not have been screwed.

[Guest Rrrsh]

without viewing that political aspects of it, someone like Shawn should not job to someone like Bulldog, no matter where it is.

 

You can't be serious....

Shawn was in the biggest fued of the company (Taker), was getting a World title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV and was a leader in a major stable.

 

Bulldog was a midcarder, tagging with Owen vs other midcard tag teams and was viewed as the third guy in his stable.

 

 

I am dead serious.

[Guest Rrrsh]

As for Shawn needing to be kept strong, that's a good one. He's over enough that he could have afforded to have lost the match thanks to Kurt interfering, which itself would have gotten his WM match even more.

Never use a screwjob as a better case.

Then I guess you're ignoring the fact that Kurt costing Shawn the match would have built up Shawn's match with Kurt, which would have had a clean finish, so the fans would ultimately not have been screwed.

The build that happened on RAW and at th Royal Rumble was awesome. They built the fued with Angle without fucking with the Edge matches. It was a breathe of fresh air.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Whether he should have jobbed to Davey Boy or not, once the match was set up, given what Davey had done, and given that the company had told eveyone it was going to show Shawn was professional, he should have done the job.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Whether he should have jobbed to Davey Boy or not, once the match was set up, given what Davey had done, and given that the company had told eveyone it was going to show Shawn was professional, he should have done the job.

Yah. I am just saying it should have never been booked.

 

But when it was booked, Shawn should have jobbed.

[bob_barron 0]

without viewing that political aspects of it, someone like Shawn should not job to someone like Bulldog, no matter where it is.

 

You can't be serious....

Shawn was in the biggest fued of the company (Taker), was getting a World title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV and was a leader in a major stable.

 

Bulldog was a midcarder, tagging with Owen vs other midcard tag teams and was viewed as the third guy in his stable.

 

 

I am dead serious.

It was in England, it was going to hurt Shawn one bit if he lost to Davey Boy.

 

It was very nice of HBK to go over in front of Davey Boy's dying sister while making lews remarks to Davey's wife. What a great guy.

 

HBK had bulletproof heat at that point- the fans hated him regardless and would still pay to see him get his ass kicked.

[Guest netslob]

Shawn had Vince by the balls.

 

oh, i'll bet he did.

[Guest FromBeyondTheGrave]

I don't like Shawn Michaels still calling himself a sexy boy, when he's a disgusting, balding, 40-something year old man.

[Precious Roy 0]

without viewing that political aspects of it, someone like Shawn should not job to someone like Bulldog, no matter where it is.

 

You can't be serious....

Shawn was in the biggest fued of the company (Taker), was getting a World title shot in 6 weeks at a major PPV and was a leader in a major stable.

 

Bulldog was a midcarder, tagging with Owen vs other midcard tag teams and was viewed as the third guy in his stable.

 

 

I am dead serious.

And it would have hurt him to lose to Bulldog, with homefield advantage, due to Hart Foundation interference? He needed the European Title more than Bulldog? Please....

 

I don't even have a problem with him going over in that match if that's what the booker wants and it's done for a legit reason, but the way it happened was just wrong, especially with Bulldog being the top draw in England and dedicating the match to his sister and everything, and being led to believe he was going over. It also led to HBK just giving the belt to HHH after he won the WHT because so little forethought had been involved, which pretty much killed it as a meaningful title.

 

And as for your general logic that "guys like Shawn" shouldn't lose to "guys like Bulldog," it's that kind of attitude that prevents anyone from getting over and makes for boring, paint by numbers programs, and it's the kind of attitude that has plagued the WWE for years. HBK would lose nothing putting over Bulldog. Bulldog had been in numerous PPV main events, losing narrowly to both HBK and Bret, and Bret Hart, an equal of Shawn Michaels, put him over in the main event of SummerSlam 92. Is it THAT much of a stretch to think he could get a 3 count on Michaels?!?! If a guy like Davey Boy can NEVER go over a guy like HBK, who the fuck can?

[The Tino Standard 0]

As for all those people worried about Kurt returning the job to Shawn in the near future, I don't think that's completely possible.

 

Yeah, Shawn could win a rematch... Hell, he could win every match against Angle from now until eternity, but it really doesn't matter- the first time they met was at Wrestlemania... Angle won... CLEANLY. That's the one people will remember.

 

Has Jericho pinned Shawn Michaels in the last two years? Honestly, I have no idea. Why? Because their one time in the ring I'll always remember is WMXIX. Jericho didn't go over in the big match on the big stage. No amount of "return jobs" after that ever equal the initial encounter.