Some interesting Survivor Series 1997 stuff

[JoeDirt 0]

Some interesting tidbits from Meltzer, from the Wrestling Classics board, in a thread talking about Survivor Series 1997.

 

On whether HHH knew and was in on it: "Of course he knew. He was the catalyst when he told Shawn, after Vince asked Shawn to lose in Montreal, and in return, Bret would put Shawn over in the four-way in Springfield on his last night, that Shawn should never put Bret over."

 

On making Shawn look like he wasn't in on it: "They ordered Michaels to act super pissed off in the ring, because he was going to be their new champion, and they recognized the distinct possibility that it wouldn't look good for their new champion to get his ass kicked on a live PPV in front of the world and then have the ex-champion quit on the spot knowing he'd be screwed.

 

That was the reason that Vince, when he suggested the Moolah-Richter cinching on a small package, was told in no uncertain terms that would be a disaster. Hart would know Michaels was in on it, and knowing the situation, there is little doubt Hart would break Michaels in two immediately before he could get out of the ring. The fake submission spot set up by Patterson (although it was not Patterson's idea, and when the person who was the real architect passes away I'm allowed to give the rest of the story) gave Shawn the plausible deniability. While Bret didn't believe him in the dressing room when he asked him, it wasn't until Undertaker (who didn't know ahead of time) told him a few weeks later that he knew for sure Shawn and HHH both knew in advance."

 

Why Doug Furnas told Meltzer he was pissed off about it: "He wasn't mad for Bret Hart, well, he was pretty mad about that, but it was Blade, Bret's 12-year-old son, that he was a lot madder about. He talked about how he was crying hysterically because of what they did, for real, to his father. He said you'd have to see it to understand how miserable certain people really were as human beings, to allow the son to be in the show (Vince allowed it, I'd guess it was Bret's idea but he also thought he was winning for Canada via DQ, Blade carried the Canadian flag) knowing what they were planning on doing. At that point, I think it's more than Julie Hart's business. Even without that story, it still is."

 

On Bret getting buried in WCW: "Regarding Bret not doing the "real world champion" gimmick in WCW, you have to remember that people who manipulated Eric weren't wanting him to get over, and certainly not get over in the manner Vince handed to them. That was the original idea, and it was dropped because Eric was talked out of it, and not by Bret Hart. Remember, he was put in a program with Flair, who they thought at the time was damaged goods. They did a shockingly high buy rate with a rushed three week program, and then the program was ended after one match. Then they were made a team, and before they had their first match as a team, both were taken off television.

 

Eric Bischoff spent too much money to want the Hart experiment to fail. Obviously, other people did and they were those who were able to influence him to make poor booking choices, Why else, when "Wrestling with Shadows" aired on television, did the company then take Hart off TV for a month?"

 

On some misconceptions about the incident: "How was Vince protecting his company?

 

Bret Hart had already agreed to lose the title four weeks later in Springfield, Massachusetts on PPV. It would be in a four-way match. It would be to Shawn Michaels, with Ken Shamrock and Undertaker as the other two. If Michaels would put Hart over, Hart was willing to put Michaels over. If Michaels wouldn't agree to put Hart over, and he didn't, then Hart would lose to shamrock or Taker (didn't matter which, he liked them both) in an elimination match and Michaels would pin that person to win the match and the title. It had all been agreed to. Even Bischoff was aware of it. Michaels walked out on doing the job for Hart at Mania that year, and several times before Montreal had flat out said he would never put Hart over, and this was when Hart was champion, and not leaving the company. Michaels also refused to put Davey Boy Smith over in England in September, which was a huge deal at the time. I remember being told ahead of time because Shawn wasn't doing jobs and bragging abuot it , how they were going to force the issue in England to show Shawn was a professional. Davey even dedicated the match to his sister who was dying of cancer. Then, Shawn refused to do the job and they came to Davey and asked him to drop the title or else Shawn would walk, for the good of the company. While a lot of people have portrayed Davey qutting WWF at the time as loyalty to Bret, and at the time, that was definitely part of it, he was a lot madder at being made a fool out of in his home country when he was promised the opposite.

 

The story about Bret Hart going to Nitro and throwing the belt in the garbage can was made up by Vince, after the fact, because the guys were on the verge of a revolt and he needed to come up with a story they would be sympathetic to.

 

I think one of the myths, and the movie "Wrestling with Shadows," in attempting to be a dramatic movie gave the impression, is that Montreal was Bret's last match in WWF. If that was the case, he should have lost and there is no argument in favor of anything else. The fact is, he was booked at house shows for another month with the company. It turned out to be his last match because he punched the owner of the company in the dressing room and at that point, couldn't very well come back.

 

If Bret hart was going to go to Nitro the next day, then why, when the next day came, was he not at Nitro? Nothing WCW could have done at the time could have been more dramatic then him showing up the next night. Because he was never going. His WWF contract didn't run out for another month. WWF had already filed an unfair practices suit against WCW. Vince had not breached Hart's contract beforehand, so if Hart showed up on Nitro, he and WCW would have been sued and no way would Hart have put himself in that position. Plus, and most importantly, for a guy who cared more than most about his image with the wrestlers, he'd have never left unprofessionally unless forced to. Once Vince breached in Montreal, why he didn't go to Nitro then, is because Vince still owed him $30,000 and he didn't want to give him the excuse not to pay it.

 

He was going to Raw in Cornwall, Ontario and was booked to do an interview that would turn him babyface, which is a key part of the story. One of the deals in him agreeing to go heel earlier in the year was that he would eventually turn back. One of the deals when Vince opened the door for him to leave was that he would get to leave as a babyface. While he was the babyface in the match with Michaels, he never turned and was only a face in Canada, where he never turned in the first place."

 

On Vince supposedly being worried that Bischoff would reneg on his promise to not announce signing Bret until after he lost the title: "The funny thing about that story is that when Bret asked Vince if he should ask Eric to postpone the announcement of him coming on Nitro, that it was Vince who told Bret it wasn't necessary. Bret told Vince it would be no problem to do so. Eric had Bret the week before and didn't make an announcement when he could have because Bret asked him to wait.

 

He was a lame duck champion in Montreal. Vince's people told the wrestlers on the Tuesday before Montreal about it. Keep in mind, the whole idea of screwing Bret didn't come until Wednesday night when Shawn told Vince he wasn't doing the job for Bret, and Vince blew his cork about this main event where both guys were refusing to lose to each other, and Shawn realized he had Vince by the balls because Vince couldn't do anything to him (karma took care of that) with Bret leaving. The WWE wrestlers then told the WCW wrestlers and everyone knew. So Vince, by revealing it early, was the one who actually got the word out while Bret and Bischoff both kept their mouths shut publicly as per the three-way agreement. Not to say I didn't know because anyone could read the Observer the week before Montreal and it's all there. Hart could have lost it at the house show in Madison Square Garden a week later if they didn't want to wait until Springfield, MA."

 

On the possibility of vacating the title: "I agree completely. There is no way Vince McMahon should have allowed Bret Hart to vacate the title when he was leaving.

 

That has nothing to do with this story other than saying nobody is an angel and it's wrong to portray them as such.

 

Bret's suggestion to vacate the title (hardly a demand, very low voice after Vince asked, what do you want to do and Bret said everyone knows, why don't we end on a high note tomorrow, blah blah blah and Vince agreed, of course with no intention of it happening) came on Sunday afternoon when he was in Montreal in the dressing room. The voice did not sound the slighest bit unreasonable. If Vince had said, I just can't have that, it would have been no problem. During the conversation, both talked as if the plan for him to lose it in the ring in Springfield was what both had agreed to do and nobody said or did anything to indicate that wouldn't happen until Vince agreed Bret could vacate it. VINCE NEVER ONCE ASKED OR BROUGHT UP BRET LOSING THAT NIGHT. He never said, you know what, we've got to do it this way (although Bret would not have agreed to do it for Shawn, whether he would have agreed to do it for shamrock or Austin that night I don't know and I don't want to guess but I could see that one going either way as he liked both of them and was very willing to lose to either--in fact, at one point, he specifically asked to lose to Austin). Of course, at that point, Vince is agreeing to everything Bret said to get him to lower his guard after several wrestlers told him not to go on his back for a two count (nobody warned him of the fake submission finish, which he fell into, which was, if something can be said for this, was the brilliance of why it almost worked) and the ref swore on the life of his kids that he wouldn't double-cross him. The screw job decision came the prior Wednesday when Michaels called up Vince at home and told him he would not do the job in Montreal in exchange to Bret losing to him directly in Springfield. Gerald Brisco was in Shawn Michaels' hotel room the night before trying to give him a crash course on blocking punches and escaping submissions to avert what they were really scared to death of, and that is their new champion getting his ass kicked for real on a live PPV by the guy they screwed who would then leave after being screwed. In the company's mind, that was the thing they were scared of, which is why Shawn had to pretend to be even madder than Bret when the finish came.

 

If Bret Hart would have demanded on the prior Wednesday that he vacate the title, refused any other suggestion, I would back Vince 100%. He did no such thing.

 

I would also back Vince 100% if it was not a common practice among his wrestlers at the time, Shawn, HHH, Austin, to get out of doing jobs that were both scripted and important to get new talent over. A practice that has continued on PPV main events to this day. If they wanted it on PPV, he had already agreed to the PPV. If they wanted it on live TV, he'd have agreed to live TV. He even suggested MSG and Fayetteville (a live Raw) as potential venues, and even said he'd lose to Steve Lombardi, if asked."

 

--Really interesting stuff...anyone want to guess who it is that Meltzer says came up with the sharpshooter spot but he can't reveal it until that person dies?

[Naked Snake 0]

I have to read this again to truly understand it.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Just when I think I'm sick of all of this Meltz drags me back in. It will be interesting if the rumoured WWE DVD contains any information like this... hell, it could even reveal the architect that Meltz can't.

 

It won't. But it could.

[iliketurtles 0]

Amazing stuff.

 

As far as that comment about the Sharpshooter spot...I think it's Cornette.

 

It's obviously someone who trusts and knows Meltzer as well. This is from Meltzer's report of what transpired which lead up to the screwjob:

 

At about the same time the WWF braintrust was in Montreal one day early. Vince McMahon held a meeting at the hotel with Jim Ross, Jim Cornette, Pat Patterson and Michaels. Reports are that at least two of the aforementioned names looked extremely uncomfortable leaving the meeting.

 

Now, I've always wondered who those two were. Jim Ross is one of them by process of elimination, and considering he's put Bret over huge since the incident and he was the one to call Foley after it happened...Ross wasn't enjoying this experience.

 

If Cornette was the one who planned out the spot, then my guess is Patterson is the other one. He always had a great relationship with Bret and he probably didn't want much to do with it.

 

That's my guess.

[Vern Gagne 0]

--Really interesting stuff...anyone want to guess who it is that Meltzer says came up with the sharpshooter spot but he can't reveal it until that person dies?

 

Steve Austin, still pissed at Owen Hart for the SummerSlam incident. Figured if Bret was screwed, it was piss Owen off enough for him to quit the company.

[JoeDirt 0]

Amazing stuff.

 

As far as that comment about the Sharpshooter spot...I think it's Cornette.

 

It's obviously someone who trusts and knows Meltzer as well. This is from Meltzer's report of what transpired which lead up to the screwjob:

 

At about the same time the WWF braintrust was in Montreal one day early. Vince McMahon held a meeting at the hotel with Jim Ross, Jim Cornette, Pat Patterson and Michaels. Reports are that at least two of the aforementioned names looked extremely uncomfortable leaving the meeting.

 

Now, I've always wondered who those two were. Jim Ross is one of them by process of elimination, and considering he's put Bret over huge since the incident and he was the one to call Foley after it happened...Ross wasn't enjoying this experience.

 

If Cornette was the one who planned out the spot, then my guess is Patterson is the other one. He always had a great relationship with Bret and he probably didn't want much to do with it.

 

That's my guess.

Yeah, I was thinking Cornette too. It has to be someone close to Meltzer for him not to reveal until after he dies. It's weird though, since I'm sure Bret knows Cornette was involved, so why would he care if Bret knew he was the one who came up with the sharpshooter spot?

 

It's just shocking to me that Vince didn't go along with having the Montreal match end in a DQ like planned and have Bret lose the title soon after to somebody like Shamrock or Undertaker, who could then drop the title to HBK in the four way match at the DX PPV. You think that would be a lot easier option than screwing over Bret and taking the risk that he did. But luckily for Vince, doing it paid off.

 

Another interesting thing to me is the fact that this clearly wasn't Bret's last WWF match, as Wrestling With Shadows makes you believe. Reading over Cawthon's site, you might want to change your description of the Survivor Series match:

 

"WWF European Champion Shawn Michaels defeated WWF World Champion Bret Hart to win the title at 12:18 when referee Earl Hebner called for the bell as Michaels had Hart in his own version of the Sharpshooter, however there was no submission from Hart; the original ending for the bout called for the Hart Foundation to interfere, causing a disqualification and involving DX in a post-match brawl, however Vince McMahon had secretly planned this alternative ending since Bret was unwavering in his refusal to lose the heavyweight title in Canada to Michaels in his final match in the WWF; only the world title was on the line"

 

Cawthon's site also has this interesting card:

 

WWF @ Barrie, Ontario - Barrie Molson Centre - November 12, 1997

Henry & Phinneas Godwinn defeated the Headbangers

Glenn Kulka defeated Miguel Perez Jr.

The Rock defeated Ahmed Johnson

Max Mini, Nova, & Mosaic defeated El Torito, Piratita Morgan, & Tarantula

Ken Shamrock defeated Savio Vega

Kama & D-Lo Brown defeated Crush & Chainz

Kane defeated Vader

WWF IC Champion Steve Austin & Dude Love defeated Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart

 

Did Owen really do a house show right after Survivor Series, or is that a typo? And if he did...why?

[Slayer 0]

The fake submission spot set up by Patterson (although it was not Patterson's idea, and when the person who was the real architect passes away I'm allowed to give the rest of the story)

Deepthroat: The Next Generation

[JustJoe2k5 0]

Probably Gerald Brisco or Vince McMahon himself, or Shawn Michaels since he had so much pull back then.

[Carnival 0]

Great stuff. I always thought that was going to be his last match inWWF. That makes the whole thing even more fucked up. Shawn Michaels is such a piece of shit.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

What the fuck is Shawn's problem?

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Shawns problem was that he was an ass. Shawn was a dick, as known by everybody, had wayyyy too much backstage pull, and was pissing people off. Him and Bret just hated each other.

 

But when is the karma supposed to catch up with Shawn? He has a hot wife, he's back in wrestling still putting on good matches, probably respected by his current peers, and overall is living a quality life.

 

And Bret? He's old and bitter, still complaining about all of this at every oppertunity. He got buried in WCW, got divored, suffered a stroke, and other horrible stuff.

 

Shawns life after Montreal>>>>>Brets life after Montreal

[JoeDirt 0]

When did Shawn supposedly find religion and change his life and all that jazz?

[JHawk 0]

When did Shawn supposedly find religion and change his life and all that jazz?

Somewhere between 1998 and 2002.

[iliketurtles 0]

After karma bit him in the ass when he got thrown on the casket at Royal Rumble 98 and nearly ended his career.

[Naked Snake 0]

Shawn found religion somewhere in 2001. I think it happened after the whole Wrestlemania X-7 fiasco where he acted like a primadonna when his skits were cut for time off of Raw.

 

His karma was the casket bump that took 4 years off of his wrestling career. But there's also some people saying he took the time off because he knew he couldn't pull his shit anymore with the emergance of the Rock and Steve Austin (among others).

[Guest news_gimmick]

I'd guess Shawn cleaned up sometime in late 2001-early 2002 because I remember him being sent home before WrestleMania X-7 because he was still too messed up on drugs to perform. He really has changed and not caused any problems since his 2002 return, and I for one feel good that he has. But as for Bret nowadays, I think his life is back on the upswing with a new wife now and his peforming in a play. He also made up with Vince I believe last year or so, so slowly but surely all of this non sense is fading away into history. Finally.

[Jericholic82 0]

I think its really time to get over Montreal already. I mean I was a huge Bret Fan back in the day, but hey if you're going to place blame here, blame Vince or Bischoff for his past actions influencing Vince.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Well his brother dying was probably the worst part of all.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I think its really time to get over Montreal already.

Whether anyone has gotten over Montreal or not, everything will undoubtedly get started all over again when WWE releases Screwed: The Bret Hart Story, and we'll be right back at the beginning.

[2GOLD 0]

I think its really time to get over Montreal already. I mean I was a huge Bret Fan back in the day, but hey if you're going to place blame here, blame Vince or Bischoff for his past actions influencing Vince.

 

From what I just saw, the fault was completely on Shawn Michaels. There is no flip side, it was all Shawn. If Shawn agrees to the deal of the match ending in a DQ then there is never any talk of this and the Hitman is in the company to this day in some form.

 

And you can bet Shawn let his hatred of Bret extend into WCW where Nash and Hall had basically completely control of the company.

 

I hope Bret does come back one day to the WWE, and sucker punches Shawn right in the middle of the ring on RAW and walks out. And if Vince walks out, punch him in the face as well.

 

Shawn Michaels got no punishment for Montreal. Not a god damn thing. Vince got punched, Michaels got off clean. And making Davey Boy lose a match he dedicated to his sister who is dying of CANCER?!?!? There may be no scum lower than HBK.

[death_by_burrito 0]

He really has changed and not caused any problems since his 2002 return, and I for one feel good that he has.

He may not be causing problems, but he's still not putting people over (prime example being Jericho at 'Mania). Even though he's not doing drugs and causing all kinds of backstage nonsense, he's still putting himself over all the younger talent that need it (barring where this thing with Hassan is going).

 

That was especially shitty of him not wanting to put Davey Boy over in his home country in a match that was dedicated to his dying sister. Shawn will always be a POS in my eyes.

[Carnival 0]

From what I just saw, the fault was completely on Shawn Michaels. There is no flip side, it was all Shawn. If Shawn agrees to the deal of the match ending in a DQ then there is never any talk of this and the Hitman is in the company to this day in some form.

 

And you can bet Shawn let his hatred of Bret extend into WCW where Nash and Hall had basically completely control of the company.

 

I hope Bret does come back one day to the WWE, and sucker punches Shawn right in the middle of the ring on RAW and walks out. And if Vince walks out, punch him in the face as well.

 

Shawn Michaels got no punishment for Montreal. Not a god damn thing. Vince got punched, Michaels got off clean. And making Davey Boy lose a match he dedicated to his sister who is dying of CANCER?!?!? There may be no scum lower than HBK.

AMEN!

 

And bret better kill brian hebner, as earl swore on his kids that he wouldn't screw him.

[Ace309 0]

On making Shawn look like he wasn't in on it:

 

The fake submission spot set up by Patterson (although it was not Patterson's idea, and when the person who was the real architect passes away I'm allowed to give the rest of the story) gave Shawn the plausible deniability. [...]

I find it ironic that, for once in his life, Patterson wasn't Deep Throat.

[Guest nWoCHRISnWo]

So more affirmation... Michaels is an ass. I can't see how anyone would take his side on this anymore.

[Jericholic82 0]

So more affirmation... Michaels is an ass. I can't see how anyone would take his side on this anymore.

I am not taking his side. I'm just saying that it was Vince who went to Bret and asked to break the contract and convinced him to negotiate with WCW. Vince obviously wanted Bret gone. Bret was the one who refused to put over Shawn (not that I blame him too much) in Montreal. But Bret probably should have just swallowed his pride and lost to shawn at survivor series. Then the screwjob would never have happened. Maybe Bret would be in the hall of fame right now too (although if owen had still died, the friction would still be there)

 

What I mean is, despite shawns indiscretions, why did Bret refuse to lose in Canada? I mean WWf/E has had plenty of people job in their hometowns before with little trouble. I mean Bret also basically refused to turn full heel a(Just in the US) before this. Yea Shawn was an a-hole, but you can also argue about Bret.

 

That being said, Vince should have had more confidence in Bret. Bret would never degrade the WWF title, even if he was offered extra cash IMO

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What I mean is, despite shawns indiscretions, why did Bret refuse to lose in Canada? I mean WWf/E has had plenty of people job in their hometowns before with little trouble. I mean Bret also basically refused to turn full heel a(Just in the US) before this. Yea Shawn was an a-hole, but you can also argue about Bret.

With Canadian and other non-US wrestlers, it's likely they take a different viewpoint in losing in their hometowns/countries, because they don't wrestle there as often as they do in America.

 

Bret's refusal to put Shawn over wasn't just down to not wanting to lose in Canada, but not wanting to put over a guy who not only refused to lose to him in return, but had also repeatedly stated in the months and weeks before Montreal that he wasn't going to do jobs to anyone at all. In Meltzer's big piece on Montreal, he mentions two times where Michaels told Vince and Bret to their faces that he (Shawn) wasn't going to do any jobs to anyone in the company.

 

When it came down to Bret dropping the title, as the aforemention Meltzer piece, and the Meltzer quotes also state, Bret was willing to drop the belt to anyone at any time once they got out of Canada. He even broke down and agreed to lose to Shawn if he had to, just not in Canada.

 

It should also once again be pointed out that Bret had the contractual right to refuse any job asked of him in his last 30 days with the WWF, as all finishes had to be mutually agreed upon with Vince, and they had agreed on a finish for Montreal, and for the next month in Springfield.

[Jericholic82 0]

Proves my point. Bret was so aganist losing in Canada, that he basically did screw himself.

 

 

However to be fair, Vince really should have reprimanded or fired Shawn for those child-like antics he was pulling.

[Carnival 0]

bret had creative control. In no way did bret screw bret.

 

Was bret a dick for not jobbing to shawn...sure. In a perfect world everyone is willing to job to everyone. But both wrestlers egos got in the way as well as thier mutual dislike. Yes bret should have just went with the first finish given to him. But he had contractual rights to reject it. so he did. Bret had the right to do that IN HIS CONTRACT. Then Vince should have ran the agreed upon finish. but he didn't.

 

Thus violating the contract.....Thus Vince screwed bret.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Quick question: How the hell was Bret going to pull off a face turn while still in Canada (Cornwall or Ottawa)? If he declared new found love for the US and A he would have been boo'd out of the building.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Quick question: How the hell was Bret going to pull off a face turn while still in Canada (Cornwall or Ottawa)? If he declared new found love for the US and A he would have been boo'd out of the building.

I imagine he would have said something along the lines of letting his hatred for Shawn Michaels get the better of him, and that while the US has bad apples like Shawn, every country has them, and that you shouldn't judge a whole country because of those who disgrace it.