Some interesting Survivor Series 1997 stuff

[Guest MikeSC]

Going over all of Shawn Michaels' "jobs"... he sure has put over a lot of young, up-and-coming talent clean on PPV, hasn't he? Triple H, only a 7 time World Champion the first time he lost, Kurt Angle, to quote WWE, the most celebrated athlete in WWE history, and Benoit, who is a 19 year pro.

Randy Orton.

-=Mike

[The Niggardly King 0]

Going over all of Shawn Michaels' "jobs"... he sure has put over a lot of young, up-and-coming talent clean on PPV, hasn't he? Triple H, only a 7 time World Champion the first time he lost, Kurt Angle, to quote WWE, the most celebrated athlete in WWE history, and Benoit, who is a 19 year pro.

Randy Orton.

-=Mike

I remember Orton hitting Michaels with brass knucks about 6 or 7 times to finally beat HBK. It really did nothing for Orton in the long run.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Yes it did. He killed another legend, by any means.

 

Orton was never protrayed as a guy who wouldnt cheat to win. And it wasnt pussy-like in any way.

[iggymcfly 0]

So, wait a minute. You admit that Shawn's 5-12-1 on PPV since coming back (not counting either Rumble match), and is actually 3-12-1 after his initial nostalgia matches, and you're still complaining that he's not jobbing enough?

 

Sure, he may win get a win back on Raw occasionally, but that's just the way the WWE operates nowadays. When he got his big clean win over Jericho, Jericho ended up "getting his job back" on Raw too. And as to the rematch, not being clean, the fact is that faces don't lose clean all that much in the WWE anymore. He did lose completely clean to HHH, Benoit, and Angle in the last year, which is plenty for that span.

 

Also, a lot of people here need to learn that the point of the shows is to entertain the fans. It's not to MAKE EVERYONE UNDER 35 LOOK LIKE GOD BECAUSE THEY'RE THE FUTURE BY GOD, AND THESE WASHED UP 35 YEAR OLDS NEED TO JOB CLEAN AND THEN GET RAPED, AND THEN GET KILLED AND THEN GET THEIR CORPSES RAPED TOO.

 

The one major match that had some chance for elevation was the Orton match, and in the context of the gimmick, he really put him over just fine. When you're talking about some like Kane, he's such damaged goods that he actually has less of a future than Shawn does, and there's really no reason for him to go over whatsoever.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

You people are analysing EVERY MAJOR JOB HE'S DONE SINCE RETURNING?

 

Jesus Christ.

[Guest krazykat72]

I remember Orton hitting Michaels with brass knucks about 6 or 7 times to finally beat HBK. It really did nothing for Orton in the long run.

I'm pretty sure it was once or twice.

It went down similar to Savage/Santana where Savage won the IC belt.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

The only match that I have complaints about since he has come back, is the Wrestlemania XIX match against Jericho. Jericho absolutely needed that win, and he has never really recovered from it. It doesn't matter what happens afterwards, it is Wrestlemania that people remember.

 

But I don't blame Shawn for that. I blame the booking crew/HHH, Jericho was being jobbed out long before HBK ever returned. Just look at another must-win match for him at Judgment Day 2002. Shawn wasn't even around for that one.

[alfdogg 0]

Seeing some of these HBK drones get all upset over this is entertaining.

 

You people are analysing EVERY MAJOR JOB HE'S DONE SINCE RETURNING?

 

Jesus Christ.

Yeah, how pathetic that they remember the actual finishes of the matches and the ramifications, instead of just assuming "well, Shawn jobbed, so therefore he elevated the guy". I'm sure in your eyes Shawn "elevated" Daivari on RAW, right?

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Yeah, that's it.

[Jericholic82 0]

I have that match on tape too, and now I'm curious to see how exactly it ended, but I know the interference definitely set-up the Walls because at the time I was super pissed that Y2J was getting a tainted win.

 

Ok, typing the PBP as I watch it:

 

-Jericho ducks Chin Music, hits HBK with a field goal kick lowblow while Hebner is recoiling from the missed kick which came inches from his face, both men down

 

-Flair (already at ringside) approaches ring apron with chair, Hebner cuts him off, Flair slides chair to Jericho, charging Jericho eats SCM into the chair, both men down

 

-Flair pulls Hebner out of the ring and gets into shouting match with him, Orton runs in and nails Michaels with RKO onto the chair, Michaels is out

 

-Jericho crawls over for 2 count, applys Walls of Jericho, Michaels holds on for approx. 90 seconds before tapping

 

So, there you go, a good match and really good finishing sequence, but hardly did much for Jericho.....

I would techincally call that a clean job becuase the interference only led to a 2 count, and Michaels tapped. So the interference didnt necessarlily lead to the finish. Ok Im reaching here but I am a Jericho mark of course. Of course I was also a big HBK mark from 95-98 so this splits my loyalty.

 

I'm going to go dig that tape up and watch it later.

[Guest JMA]

I remember Orton hitting Michaels with brass knucks about 6 or 7 times to finally beat HBK. It really did nothing for Orton in the long run.

Agreed. Foley was the one who really put Orton over.

[cawthon777 0]

Cawthon's site also has this interesting card:

 

WWF @ Barrie, Ontario - Barrie Molson Centre - November 12, 1997

WWF IC Champion Steve Austin & Dude Love defeated Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart

 

Did Owen really do a house show right after Survivor Series, or is that a typo? And if he did...why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not a typo. As to why ... he was booked to wrestle. This was immediately after the PPV and I doubt Owen and Vince had time to do a sit-down prior to that point.

 

It very well could be Cornette. I know he thinks a lot of Bret but he does buy into the train of thought that says, "It's wrestling! How can you really lose a belt when you didn't win it to begin with?"

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

The only match that I have complaints about since he has come back, is the Wrestlemania XIX match against Jericho.  Jericho absolutely needed that win, and he has never really recovered from it.  It doesn't matter what happens afterwards, it is Wrestlemania that people remember. 

 

If the company wanted to put Jericho in a world title feud HHH, then Jericho should have went over. If the company wanted him to toil around in the midcard for about 3 year later, then HBK should have went over. I liked the match and it really did not matter who won because HHH is still around. Chris Jericho is over and nothing they can do can take away his overness just like HHH.

[iliketurtles 0]

There's no excuse for Mania 19, as Kahran said. They dropped the ball on that one.

[Guest Rrrsh]

They dropped the ball on Jericho period. That isolated match means jack if they planned on using him they way they have since WM 19.

[Shooting Star 0]

He really has changed and not caused any problems since his 2002 return, and I for one feel good that he has.

He may not be causing problems, but he's still not putting people over (prime example being Jericho at 'Mania). Even though he's not doing drugs and causing all kinds of backstage nonsense, he's still putting himself over all the younger talent that need it (barring where this thing with Hassan is going).

 

That was especially shitty of him not wanting to put Davey Boy over in his home country in a match that was dedicated to his dying sister. Shawn will always be a POS in my eyes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the mania X9 thing with Jericho may have had something to do with HHH....I mean he put Angle over and not Jericho??I don't know but I've never heard of HHH having anything against Angle.

[Guest JoeJoe]

Ok, Michales was a big ass jerk back in the day, but this is 2005 guys. I mean, his pal basically owns the company, and he is good friends with Vince and Flair. He can easily play politics that can land him up on the top of either brands. But he doesn't do that.

 

As for the Jericho loss at WM XIX, saying that Michales buried him is bullshit. Just a few months before Mania, Jericho was jobbing out clean to 53 yr old Flair on PPV's. So if the writers didn't have big plans for Jericho after Mania XIX, had he beaten HBK or not, what difference would a win make? Sure he would gain credibility, but it would all go down the drain because the writers just wouldn't push him.

 

Michales since coming back has put on 4 stars and 5 stars. Damn he gives Angle and Benoit a run for their money when it comes to stealing matches. He's doing that even though he is 7 years past his prime. The guy is arguably the greatest total package ever, and a MUCH better performer than the one dimensional and overrated Bret Hart.

 

Give it a rest, if you wanna bash Michaels, bash him for that gay outfit, not because he supposedly "doesn't job".

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Ok, Michales was a big ass jerk back in the day, but this is 2005 guys. I mean, his pal basically owns the company, and he is good friends with Vince and Flair. He can easily play politics that can land him up on the top of either brands. But he doesn't do that.

 

As for the Jericho loss at WM XIX, saying that Michales buried him is bullshit.  Just a few months before Mania, Jericho was jobbing out clean to 53 yr old Flair on PPV's. So if the writers didn't have big plans for Jericho after Mania XIX, had he beaten HBK or not, what difference would a win make? Sure he would gain credibility, but it would all go down the drain because the writers just wouldn't push him.

 

Michales since coming back has put on 4 stars and 5 stars. Damn he gives Angle and Benoit a run for their money when it comes to stealing matches.  He's doing that even though he is 7 years past his prime. The guy is arguably the greatest total package ever, and a MUCH better performer than the one dimensional and overrated Bret Hart.

 

Give it a rest, if you wanna bash Michaels, bash him for that gay outfit, not because he supposedly "doesn't job".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Even though he does do jobs.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

A lot of people aren't understanding the difference between doing a job for someone and putting them over. Shawn did a job for Daivari a couple of months ago on Raw, but you'd be clueless if you thought he put him over. When Shawn beat Benjamin in the Gold Rush match, he put him over, because of how he acted during the match and at the end to get across how tough the match was, and in an interview the week later, where he praised Benjamin. Sure, it would have been nice for Benjamin to kick out of a bunch of big moves as well, but it was the best we're going to get. The bottom line is that you can beat someone and put them over huge, and you can lose to someone and not put them over a lick. Doing a job for someone doesn't automatically mean you've put them over, and I really wish more people could grasp this very simple concept.

[The Dames 0]

I fully agree with you there HTQ. Hogan jobbing for Kidman comes to mind immediately.

 

I'm sure most casual fans watching today have no idea that Hogan was once beaten by Billy Kidman in WCW because he wasn't put over by Hogan.

 

Dames

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Same with Vampiro.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

Also at WM 13, Bret put over Austin.

[Guest JoeJoe]

A lot of people aren't understanding the difference between doing a job for someone and putting them over. Shawn did a job for Daivari a couple of months ago on Raw, but you'd be clueless if you thought he put him over. When Shawn beat Benjamin in the Gold Rush match, he put him over, because of how he acted during the match and at the end to get across how tough the match was, and in an interview the week later, where he praised Benjamin. Sure, it would have been nice for Benjamin to kick out of a bunch of big moves as well, but it was the best we're going to get. The bottom line is that you can beat someone and put them over huge, and you can lose to someone and not put them over a lick. Doing a job for someone doesn't automatically mean you've put them over, and I really wish more people could grasp this very simple concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude, Benjamin is a babyface. The only other babyface Michaels has feuded with is Benoit, whom he put over and jobbed some bigass time at Backlash 2004..where he tapped out!...to the frigin Sharpshooter!...in friggin Canada!..CLEAN ON PPV!

 

Give it a rest. The only match where a clean Michaes' win did not make sense was the Street Fight with Edge (where Angle could have easily inetefered and cost Michales the match) Other than that, I see absolutely no reason to critique HBK's wins and losses.

[The Dames 0]

The fact that Benjamin is a babyface has nothing to do with it. If anything, HBK put Shelton over in his interview more than he did for Benoit.

 

HBK gave Benjamin the "stamp of approval" and basically called him the next big thing, which gives him a big rub in the fans eyes. HBK put him over huge with that interview as well as the post-match mannerisms after the Gold Rush match.

 

Dames

[Guest JoeJoe]

The fact that Benjamin is a babyface has nothing to do with it.  If anything, HBK put Shelton over in his interview more than he did for Benoit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So he was supposed to put over Benoit as the "next big thing"..the next big star of the future? Are you freakin kidding me?

 

He put Benoit over by tapping out CLEAN to him, something he has done very rarely in his career, for a very select few people.

 

Oh and yeah, being a babyface DOES have to do with it. Had HBK had the same match with Christian, he wouldn't have done those post match mannersims nor would he have put him over in an interview. Why? Because Christian's a HEEL.

 

Buh bye.

[Damaramu 0]

From reading the original Meltzer story Shawn sure doesn't seem like he's very tough at all in real life.

He's getting smacked around by everyone constantly and they were afraid Hart was going to rip him in half.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If Bret and Shawn had got into a full on fight, everybody expected it to end with Bret kicking the shit out of Shawn. When Bret and Shawn had their short brawl backstage at Raw, Shawn came out with a couple of lumps on his face. When the Montreal Finish was first decided upon, the original idea, which may have been Vince's, was for Shawn to hold Bret down in a small package and for Hebner to fast count him. Everyone said this was a bad idea, because Bret would know something was up and they felt that if he went for Shawn, he'd have killed him, and they didn't want that, so they went with the fake submission spot.

[Damaramu 0]

So is Hart really that legit tough? Or is Shawn just that big of a wuss?

 

Oh and there is great irony in Taker threatening to beat Shawn up over jobbing.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Hart was considered tough for surviving Stu Hart's Dungeon, as was everybody who came through that place. I don't know if Shawn was considered a wuss, but nobody felt that he had a chance against Bret if Bret and he had a full on fight.