The Minuteman Project

[SuperJerk 0]

The MMP is designed to showcase our lack of border security, create publicity, and hopefully lead to some change.  That's it.

Then why do they put this xenophobic drivel on their website?

 

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

 

The result:  political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

The problem with their statement is that they equate having a large population of Meixcans with having a "tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures". Because, you know, Mexicans are just sooooo different than the rest of us.

 

I support a strong border patrol for economic and security reasons, but I'm not of the opinion that increasing the Hispanic heritage of the American culture will lead to fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, and mass hysteria.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Okay... more statistics on illegal immigration, which won't be read, but whatever. I'll stand by an argument supported by research anyday.

 

Louis Rea and Richard A. Parker, Illegal Immigration in San Diego

County: An Analysis of Costs and Revenues (Sacramento: California

Legislature, 1993).

 

Frank D. Bean, B. Lindsay Lowell, and Lowell J. Taylor,

"Undocumented Mexican Immigrants and the Earnings of Other

Workers in the United States," Population Research Center,

University of Texas at Austin, 1986.

 

Kevin F. McCarthy and R. Burciaga Valdez, Current and Future

Effects of Mexican Immigration in California (Santa Monica,

Calif.: Rand Corporation, May 1986).

 

Rebecca L. Clark, Jeffrey S. Passel, Wendy N. Zimmermann, and

Michael E. Fix, "Fiscal Impacts of Undocumented Aliens: Selected

Estimates for Seven States," photocopy, Urban Institute,

Washington, January 1995.

 

 

That's just what I have lying around my office currently. Okay, so one of the books (the last one) I got from my neighbor.

 

Here is research done at the Dallas Fed Bank.

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2003/swe0306a.html

--It provides some data and feel for immigration, but economic numbers on immigration can't be put to illegal immigrants because they're undocumented...so on we go.

 

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/papers/2001/wp0103.pdf

--Again, more trend data on illegal immigration.

 

http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf...66?OpenDocument

--Quotage

Immigration benefits the U.S. economy overall and has little negative effect on the income and job opportunities of most native-born Americans, says a new report* by a panel of the National Research Council. Only in areas with high concentrations of low-skilled, low-paid immigrants are state and local taxpayers paying more on average to support the publicly funded services that these immigrants use.

 

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

--Tells you the basic financial impact illegal immigrants have in the US.

 

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

 

• With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

 

• On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

[Ripper 0]

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

 

Yet illegals spend around 80%+ of their earned income in Amercian establishments(don't have a source right now, will work on it when more time is available) and generally don't have savings. The money goes back to the economy, just not through taxes.

 

• On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

 

Yet their money spent is on par with other households. A household making more money generally spends less that an illegal household.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Yet illegals spend around 80%+ of their earned income in Amercian establishments(don't have a source right now, will work on it when more time is available) and generally don't have savings. The money goes back to the economy, just not through taxes.

 

• On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

 

Yet their money spent is on par with other households. A household making more money generally spends less that an illegal household.

But illegals DON'T MAKE MONEY. It's a drop in the bucket relative to a non-illegal household. Yes, they spend money. But it's not enough to be noticed nation-wide! Maybe county-wide, but definitely not state-wide.

 

Secondly, I don't know where you pulled the second assumption, but it violates any economic notion I understand about the spending behaviors of households (looking at Becker in the Chicago School here).

 

Economically, there's a marginal propensity to consume. 1 - MPC = marginal propensity to save. Studies done in AER (American Economic Review) seem to show that an illegal's household has a higher MPS than a non-illegal. If we allow for the fact that their earned money could be being returned to their native land, then this could in fact be true in real-life. Theoretically, we would expect MPS to be higher for them anyways due to their increased uncertainty.

[Ripper 0]

And for maybe the 4th time I ask, who the fuck cares about nationwide? Economics don't matter nationwide. They just don't. If there is a agricultural famine that hits, it won't kill this nation. But who cares, states where agriculture is their major export will be killed. This is the same thing. Yes its a drop in the bucket nationwide, but SO THE FUCK WHAT. At least 4 states would be majorly effected. Yes, STATES. Immigrant population in this country is EXTREMEMLY concentrated. I am stating that you will kill off large communities and their economies by getting rid of all illegals. Nationwide will it mean anything? No. But thats not the point. Tell people living in those states that "Hey, people in Maryland are doing alright, so your economy turning to shit doesn't really mean that much."

Illegal immigrants only affect local economy both positively and negatively, so taking the numbers nation wide is purposely skewing them to your favor.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

It is even MORE mind-boggling that the left expects soldiers to act like saints in times of war when they're being tortured when caught.

-=Mike

I don't expect them to act like Saints, but the army has typically held itself to some strict conduct guidelines, at least until the lead starts flying.

 

I don't know why it's okay to imitate the likeness of sub-human monkeys because the other side is doing it?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Lastly, if you want to make progress in halting illegal immigration, you can either hire people to sit and look out for border jumpers all day or you can do the right thing and actually enforce the laws to fine companies that are hiring illegals. Then you can raise the minimum wage so that Americans will want to do those shit jobs that are currently going to immigrants because "no American wants to do them."

 

I can guess who'll bitch about that, though.

[Ted the Poster 0]

I really wouldn't mind if California's economy tanked. I'd like an Escape from LA scenario, really.

Stop with the bullshit.

 

You would never complete the basketball challenge and would die right there.

 

 

So really think about this logically people. You get rid of all of the Mexicans and you get shot down on a post apocolyptic basketball court for not making enough baskets in a minute. Is that the future you want?

Hey now, I didn't say I wanted to be Kurt Russell. NoCalMike can do it since, well, he's NoCalMike.

 

Plus, my asthma always hinders my ballin' skillz.

[Guest MikeSC]

The MMP just put out a new recruiting poster...

And some people think the radical left is clueless...

Lastly, if you want to make progress in halting illegal immigration, you can either hire people to sit and look out for border jumpers all day or you can do the right thing and actually enforce the laws to fine companies that are hiring illegals. Then you can raise the minimum wage so that Americans will want to do those shit jobs that are currently going to immigrants because "no American wants to do them."

 

I can guess who'll bitch about that, though.

Because a low minimum wage is why Americans won't pick fruit.

-=Mike

[Ted the Poster 0]

I don't pick fruit on account of I'm a-scared of bees.

[NoCalMike 0]

The MMP just put out a new recruiting poster...

And some people think the radical left is clueless...

Lastly, if you want to make progress in halting illegal immigration, you can either hire people to sit and look out for border jumpers all day or you can do the right thing and actually enforce the laws to fine companies that are hiring illegals. Then you can raise the minimum wage so that Americans will want to do those shit jobs that are currently going to immigrants because "no American wants to do them."

 

I can guess who'll bitch about that, though.

Because a low minimum wage is why Americans won't pick fruit.

-=Mike

It also isn't only "Americans don't want to do them" but also, farmers and some companies don't want american's doing them, because they want the low wages associated with illegal workers.

[LessonInMachismo 0]

I work with illegals every single day. I don't think there are many positions at the plant that "Americans won't do." Not only do illegals save as much money as they can (some wear the same clothes three times a week) but they send it back to their families in their native lands via Western Union. If you live in an illegal-concentrated area, you will see a lot of little stores that can wire money south of the border. Also, illegal immigrants tend to be poor workers, because they know they will be out of there in a few months or a year, so they don't put too much effort into their work.

 

Also, you can't punish companies for hiring illegals because they have legitimate papers. It's called identity theft. It can take up to a year to find out someone is illegal.

 

On minimum wage...it will always be minimum wage.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Sorry, Machismo, but I don't believe that every company thinks they're hiring legit workers and then is shocked to find out that that they've hired illegals, though I understand it does happen. You can identify the illegals you work with, you just said so yourself. So why does it take the business up to a year to figure it out?

[LessonInMachismo 0]

So why does it take the business up to a year to figure it out?

The liberal agenda.

 

WE CAN'T ACCUSE THEM! IT'S DISCRIMINATION!

 

There have been people who were deported and they'd return with different names. Other people would point this out to the ever useless HR department, and they'd say "they will look into it." There are action groups out there that won't let you just fire someone without going through channels to find the identity of the person in question. Most of the time they have Spanish names, but other times you will get a Mexican person with the last name "Phillipson." Uh...

 

And I "identify" the illegals because they tell me that they are illegal.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

The liberal agenda.

I just choked on something, pardon me. *cough cough*

 

(no, really, I did. That was unexpected.)

 

Anyway, you don't think a serious threat of fines or, in extreme cases, jailtime, would make companies more efficient at this? By your examples, I don't know if it's so much liberal agendas as it is lazyness ("Oh, yes. We'll get to that. Sometime.")

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

The MMP just put out a new recruiting poster...

And some people think the radical left is clueless...

-=Mike

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

 

The result:  political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

And for maybe the 4th time I ask, who the fuck cares about nationwide? Economics don't matter nationwide. They just don't. If there is a agricultural famine that hits, it won't kill this nation. But who cares, states where agriculture is their major export will be killed. This is the same thing. Yes its a drop in the bucket nationwide, but SO THE FUCK WHAT. At least 4 states would be majorly effected. Yes, STATES. Immigrant population in this country is EXTREMEMLY concentrated. I am stating that you will kill off large communities and their economies by getting rid of all illegals. Nationwide will it mean anything? No. But thats not the point. Tell people living in those states that "Hey, people in Maryland are doing alright, so your economy turning to shit doesn't really mean that much."

Illegal immigrants only affect local economy both positively and negatively, so taking the numbers nation wide is purposely skewing them to your favor.

My point is that even noting the illegals activity that is concentrated in those states, it would not destroy those states' economies. A slight dent, maybe, but not the disaster you seem intent on believing.

 

But then again, I quoted research and facts, and you've yet to cite ONE source.

[Guest MikeSC]

The MMP just put out a new recruiting poster...

And some people think the radical left is clueless...

-=Mike

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

 

The result:  political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

Which is actually a valid complaint.

 

When you have people entering the country with no intention, whatsoever, of assimilating with the country as a whole --- you have potential problems.

 

Ask Europe how it's going with their Muslim communities who refuse to assimilate into their culture.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

One time when I was living in the ghetto I tried to assimilate and ended up getting my arse kicked -- guess my pants were baggy enough. Or perhaps it was when I said "Hey n*gga, what up dawg?" to my neighbor that was just returning home from jail...

[LessonInMachismo 0]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

Is there such a thing as acting like a WASP? Should all blacks live in the ghetto and drive beat up 70's-model Cadillacs? Nope. Your acting like WASPs means acting how everyone should act, not how White Anglo-Saxon Protestants act.

[Guest MikeSC]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

Or learn to speak English, as a failure to do so pretty well guarantees you an uncomfortable life.

-=Mike

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

Or learn to speak English, as a failure to do so pretty well guarantees you an uncomfortable life.

-=Mike

Give it a few years and not speaking spanish will do you the same. Evolution! Ain't it a bitch????

[Vyce 0]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

Or learn to speak English, as a failure to do so pretty well guarantees you an uncomfortable life.

-=Mike

I'll admit, this is what concerns me the most.

 

I think there is something to the assimilation argument, but in general, I don't have a problem with any immigrant trying to preserve their culture, even in their new home in America.

 

But goddamn, just learn English. Please. Because I can't remember anything of the five years of Spanish I took in high school, and I really don't want to have to take a Berlitz course to relearn it.

[Guest MikeSC]

Assimilate = act like WASPs.

Or learn to speak English, as a failure to do so pretty well guarantees you an uncomfortable life.

-=Mike

Give it a few years and not speaking spanish will do you the same. Evolution! Ain't it a bitch????

Never going to happen. The country is overwhelmingly English and that isn't going to change.

 

Sticking Hispanic children in bilingual education is the worst thing the government can do to children. It's sentencing them to lives with no money.

-=Mike

[Modern Man's Hustle 0]

My next door neighbor is a border patrol agent. He told me that there's 1 guy for every stretch of 100 miles on the border. One fucking guy for every 100 miles. There's no way that all of the illegals can be caught this way, all of the precious laws upheld this way. The Minuteman Project has already located 10,000 people within a span of a week. I met a member of the Project the other day. Republican, voted for Bush, but was, and I quote, "Incredibly disappointed with how the administration was handling things."

 

I have an aqua-colored house on my street. It's been aqua for two years now. I've seen about 200 people come and go through the house since they moved in, and every time a house goes up for sale on my street, it's always a "family member" from the aqua house that wants to buy it. Expansionary tactics are already being deployed. Slowly, they will take over, as, slowly, everyone else is going to move out of this neighborhood.

[LessonInMachismo 0]

I've learned that sometimes it's that they PRETEND not to understand English, you know, so you can't tell them to do something. I love the looks on their faces when I say something like, "Ponga esos cajas en aquella paleta."

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

The whole "You don't have to speak English" bit kinda bothers me, for some reason.

 

I don't think any other group was really catered to that way, so why are people that speak Spanish any different? I sure as hell know that if I moved to another country, I'd be expected to learn the language there, or suffer, right?

 

Then again, it may just be me being bitter. I love paying absurdly high school taxes, in order to support the 12,000-something illegal immigrants in HISD. Ones they care so much about, they used more tax money to build a school just for them. Go figure.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I don't think any other group was really catered to that way, so why are people that speak Spanish any different? I sure as hell know that if I moved to another country, I'd be expected to learn the language there, or suffer, right?

Actually, if you go to foreign countries, you can usually do pretty well on English. I don't think it will get you as far in the workforce, but English has a pretty big following overseas.

 

My tolerance on the whole thing is kind of middling. I don't have any problem with people speaking Spanish in public places or anything (and yes, I have heard way too many people say "They should speak English in this country" over something as simple as talking to one another at the dinner table of a restaurant), but I think that in the end they should at least have enough langauge comprehension similar to someone who listened to a "How to speak English" books on tape course.

 

Personally, I see the border as a federal issue and the cultural issues of this as a state issue. Washington should not be enacting legislation to make English an official language, and if a state decides that they need to slowly start adopting Spanish as another language, go ahead and let them. It will create more teaching jobs and hopefully that will encourage some more proper immigration.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

The MMP just put out a new recruiting poster...

And some people think the radical left is clueless...

-=Mike

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

 

The result:  political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

Which is actually a valid complaint.

 

Valid or not, it's irrelevant to the discussion I was engaging in.

 

Stephen Joseph said that:

The MMP is designed to showcase our lack of border security, create publicity, and hopefully lead to some change. That's it.

 

The quote from the MMP site suggests that the MMP's goals go beyond what SJ said.