WON MMA HOF

[Guest Brian]

Who wants to do a mock WON MMA HOF vote? Vote for six guys. Criteria is based on impact and being a great fighter. Right now, we'll just argue through and then in about a week we'll do a mock vote.

 

FIGHTERS

Tank Abbott

Mark Coleman

Randy Couture

Don Frye

Masakatsu Funaki

Rickson Gracie

Royce Gracie

Bas Rutten

Kazushi Sakuraba

Dan Severn

Frank Shamrock

Ken Shamrock

Maurice Smith

 

MANAGEMENT/HISTORICAL

Rorion Gracie

Antonio Inoki

Kazuyoshi Ishii

Satoru Sayama

[Guest Brian]

Win-Loss and Titles/Tournaments for fighters:

 

Tank Abbott (9-10-0)

 

Mark Coleman (13-7-0)

Won eight-man tournament at UFC 10 and UFC 11. UFC Heavyweight Champion. 2000 PRIDE Grand Prix Champion. Amateur wrestling credentials include 2 Time Mid-American Champion (Miami-Ohio), 1988 National Champion, two-time NCAA All-American, Gold Medal at 1991 Pan-Am Games, 1991 World Championship Silver Medalist, US Olympic Team 1992 (7th), defeated Kurt Angle at Sunkist Open in 1995.

 

Randy Couture (13-7-0)

Won Heavyweight Tournament at UFC 13, two-time UFC Heavyweight Champion, two-time UFC Light-Heavyweight Champion.

 

Don Frye (14-5-0)

Won eight-man tournament at UFC 8, won Ultimate-Ultimate 2.

 

Masakatsu Funaki (38-11-1)

 

Rickson Gracie (10-0-0)

 

Royce Gracie (13-2-2)

Won the eight-man tournament at UFC 1, UFC 2, and UFC 4.

 

Bas Rutten (27-4-1)

Undefeated King of Pancrase, UFC Heavyweight Champion

 

Kazushi Sakuraba (17-9-1)

 

Dan Severn (67-11-7)

 

Frank Shamrock (20-7-1)

Won Provisional King of Pancrase Title, Undefeated UFC Middleweight Champion

 

Ken Shamrock (26-9-2)

"Superfight Champion" UFC 6.

 

Maurice Smith (11-9-0)

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Definitely:

Mark Coleman

Randy Couture

Royce Gracie

Kazushi Sakuraba

Rorion Gracie

Satoru Sayama

 

Probably:

 

Dan Severn

Frank Shamrock

Antonio Inoki

[razazteca 0]

Royce Gracie - 1st break out star of the new style Brazilian Ju Jitsu

 

Rorion Gracie - UFC promoter?

 

Bas Rutten - Great commentator and trainer.

 

Dan Severn - Found his niche working the wrestling style in MMA and was in the 1st big feud in UFC against Shamrock.

 

Ken Shamrock - One of the few guys that knew how to do a promo and draw even though his record in the sport is'nt that great.

 

Antonio Inoki - Promoter?

[Guest Brian]

Can someone do a write-up on all the fighters, like Lei or Rudo?

 

Here's Mike Naimark's examination of Shamrock:

 

This issue’s theme isn’t one that lends itself well to the intense world of MMA competition.  Without pre-determined results contingent on the good will of a booker, the ambitious MMA competitor has little incentive to offer a willing orifice to a promoter in hopes of getting a push in any but the most literal sense.

 

And yet, the world of MMA is a business, and just like any business, the ladder to advancement is rife with clandestine opportunities to skip a rung or two at the expense of your less-cutthroat colleagues.  And I can’t think of anybody in the world of MMA who has a greater perception of achievement with less actual, uh, ACHEIVEMENT, then the subject of today’s review.  Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present to you a man whose gaudy career turns utterly pedestrian under the harsh lights of scrutiny, and man who was given favorable treatment from promoters for reasons other than what he had accomplished once the bell rang.  Weighing in at 230lbs of solid muscle wrapped around a creamy center of bullshit, the Buff Bagwell of MMA, KEN SHAMROCK!

 

Ken Shamrock actually started out in the world of professional wrestling before becoming a star in the Japanese Pancrase MMA promotion in 1993.  Pancrase is a more grappling-oriented style of fighting which places numerous restrictions of striking, resulting in many fights resembling a girly slap-attack until both men tumble to the ground and each grab a leg, rolling like they were aflame in a desperate attempt to sink in an ankle pick or kneebar.  Yep, that’s Pancrase in a nutshell for ya.  As forgettable as his pro-graps career was in these early days, Shamrock soon became a major celebrity in Japan for his fighting prowess and brawny gaijin looks.  Entering the first UFC in November of ’93, Shamrock was considered a favorite by many observers because of his success in Japan, not to mention that intangible factor – he LOOKED like a fighter, with bulging muscles and a gnarled nose, while much of the rest of the field looked like taxi drivers, plumbers, and Arena Football dropouts.  One fighter decided to wear a single boxing glove for his match, and only looked like an idiot.  Let’s take a look at Ken Shamrock’s dynamic debut in the UFC, and the glory that followed:

 

1st Match – Ken Shamrock vs. Pat Smith: Shamrock totally outclasses the befuddled Smith, tapping him out with an ankle pick in about a minute and a half.  Pat Smith would go on to fight in Japan and Brazil in addition to another couple of tours with the UFC, and his current career record stands at 8 wins, 8 losses.

 

2nd Match – Ken Shamrock vs. Royce Gracie – Royce was probably the least-intimidating looking fighter in the field that night, a svelte 170lbs of swarthy Brazilian manhood looking like he’d be more at home teaching tango lessons than trying to make grown men scream in pain.  It takes Royce a mere 57 seconds to make Shamrock tap-out to a choke.  Shamrock begins his long tradition of making excuses after his poor showings, explaining, “I’m not used to this kind of stuff”, presumably meaning real fights.  Royce’s career record currently stands at 12-2-1.

 

Having underwhelmed the martial arts world with his unimpressive showing, Shamrock returned to the ‘kind of stuff’ he presumably DID know, Pancrase in Japan, and racked up a mediocre 5-3 record in Pancrase before returning for UFC3.  Was Ken ready to dominate?

 

1st Match – Ken Shamrock vs. Christophe Lenninger – Lenninger’s background is in judo, and he wears a fabulous blue gi which matches his dreamy eyes.  One problem many traditional judokas had in MMA was that their tournament experience tended to make them rely on throws which were more effective against clothed opponents.  Against Shamrock’s slippery carcass, Lenninger can’t initiate any offense and takes a beating before taping out.  Lenninger’s career MMA record stands at 0-4.

 

2nd Match – Ken Shamrock vs. Felix Lee Mitchell – I remember someone commenting that Felix Lee Mitchell sounded like the name of a hired killer. Mitchell was a prison guard from Memphis, a city noted for having among the most violent prisons in the country. But without his nightstick, Mitchell is overwhelmed by Shamrock and taps out to a choke in short order.  Mitchell fights once more and loses again before returning to ELV-OZ and his side job dealing tits.  0-2, skidoo.

 

So Shamrock should have been headed to the finals after winning against two fighters who had never won a fight in their entire careers, but no, Shamrock displays another of his questionable qualities – in the span of these two short, one-sided fights, he appears to have hurt his hand, and withdraws.  Royce Gracie, in the other bracket, also withdraws after his thrilling fight against Kimo, and we end up with the worst finals in the history of the UFC, Harold Howard v Steve Jennum.

 

So it’s back to Pancrase for The Sham, and a string of victories before returning at UFC5 for a ‘Superfight’ against Royce Gracie.  Gracie, of course, was an undefeated 3-time UFC champion and considered to be a legend.  Shamrock, uh, well, he looked good in a Speedo and was tapped out by Royce in under a minute.  Former UFC executive Bob Meyerowitz later confessed to having placed Shamrock in such a prestigious position within the promotion based largely on his ‘look’, and Shamrock didn’t disappoint in that department, subsisting on steamed fish, tweezing his eyebrows to arched perfection, and doing thousands of crunches in preparation for his…..

 

SUPERFIGHT – Ken Shamrock vs. Royce Gracie – In an embarrassing show of timidity, Shamrock spent the entire fight in Royce Gracie’s guard, offering no real offense and essentially maintaining position without ever attempting any techniques which might lead to victory (or, more likely, to defeat).  The match goes the time-limit; Shamrock lands a single punch in the overtime before the fight ends and is ruled a draw.  Outweighing his opponent by nearly 50lbs, one might think Shamrock would show some deference and humility to the undefeated Brazilian jiu-jitsu wizard who had won 3 UFC titles since he tapped Shamrock out in their last fight.  But no, that just wouldn’t be Shammy’s style, would it?

 

“I wanted Royce Gracie to try everything he knew to try and beat me, and he tried different leg chokes and different armbars, but I had worked on this. And it was a test for Royce Gracie to try and beat Ken Shamrock and I'm gonna put him through a beatin'. His monkey ass has never seen anything like this, a beatin' like this.”

 

And here we see another facet to Shamrock’s disingenuous pattern of self-promotion paired with self-deception – by not losing to Royce Gracie in quick and decisive fashion this time, Shamrock essentially claims victory.  By refusing to initiate any offense from the guard, he can claim to have instead deftly foiled Royce’s offense from the guard!

 

Shamrock sinks even deeper into his pit of classlessness:

 

“"I stuck him with the right hand. And as you see when he hits the ground, he's done. Right at that point and time, Royce Gracie's life will never be the same. That punch has destroyed Royce Gracie's warrior mentality.  Look at his eyes, Royce Gracie is done. Royce Gracie will never be the warrior that he used to be. Royce Gracie will never, ever be the same because of that punch”

 

Some years later, Royce Gracie will have a fight in Japan against Kazushi Sakuraba which will raise the bar for MMA endurance and technique to levels previous thought unreachable.  Ken Shamrock competes on that same card, which I will discuss below.

 

And Ken’s empty self-promotion pays off for him in the UFC.  With the UFC promoters adding judges and time limits to their fights, Royce bows out, still undefeated and in possession of three tournament victories.  By virtue of only losing to Royce Gracie once in two fights, Ken Shamrock and his chiseled abs are promoted to Superfight status for UFC6, despite having never even fought in a UFC finals, much less won a tournament.  His opponent will be Dan Severn, who lost to Royce in UFC4 before winning the tournament at UFC5.

 

Ken Shamrock vs. Dan Severn – Shamrock’s finest moment in the UFC, as he catches Severn on a shoot and chokes him out with the guillotine.  Severn’s career record is an impressive 27-5-3, and I note this for one reason only: this is the ONLY win Ken Shamrock ever records over an opponent with a winning record outside of Pancrase.  Shamrock shows his traditional level of class when interviewed on the fight:

 

“So he won a few tournaments. Big Deal. I’m the submission specialist, I’m the striker, I have all the arsenal."

 

For UFC7, Shamrock is again matched up with a more accomplished UFC tournament winner, this time Oleg Taktarov, the Russian sambo master who took the UFC6 championship with a choke-out of Tank Abbott.

 

Ken Shamrock vs. Oleg Taktarov – In another listless display of non-technique, Shamrock again sits in the guard for the entire fight and offers no sort of offense, which might lead to either a win or a defensive counter-attack.  The fight goes the time-limit and is ruled a draw.  Oleg’s career record stood at 8-5-2 when he retired last year.

 

Shamrock was invited to the Ultimate Ultimate 1995, the UFC’s tournament of champions, but was injured and unable to compete.  At UFC8, he was again asked to defend the title he had never won, that of ‘Superfight’ champion, against the winless Kimo Leopaldo, best known for his thrilling loss to Royce Gracie in UFC3.

 

Ken Shamrock vs. Kimo – Joe Son was noticeable by his absence, and my disappointment was equally noticeable.  Shamrock eats a right hand from Kimo, which nearly swells his eye shut before sinking a kneebar and forcing the big Hawaiian to tap-out.  Shamrock quickly seizes on his win over Kimo to ‘prove’ his superiority to Royce Gracie again: “Kimo basically beat the monkey crap out of him.  Royce Gracie was lucky that Kimo had a ponytail…"  Kimo’s career record stands at 3-3-1, but is notable for being the only man with wins over both Bam Bam Bigelow AND Paul Varelans.

 

At UFC9, Shamrock had a rematch with Dan Severn, and the two of them engaged in what I consider to be the unquestionably WORST fight EVER, a plodding affair where both men circled, hands held high, for 20 minutes.  Although neither man deserved to win, Severn took the decision, an appropriate end of Shamrock’s ‘Superfight’ status, which he himself had never won in the first place.

 

Shamrock managed to stay healthy long enough to arrive at Ultimate Ultimate  ’96 and score a quick win over Brian Johnson (record 4-5) before withdrawing once again with a hand injury.  At some point in the evening, Shamrock has an encounter with Tank Abbott, and Shamrock makes a public challenge to Tank on the air.  Shamrock then quickly signs a contract with the World Wrestling Federation, and the fight never happens.  The UFC puts together a Ken Shamrock tribute PPV in honor of his zero UFC tournament wins, but refuses to pay for UFC7 champ Marco Ruas to bring his wife and two trainers to America for a fight.

 

After a year of pro-graps and being booked towards a stupefying incest angle compliments of Vince Russo, Shamrock leaves pro-wrestling for the PRIDE promotion in Japan.  On the same fight card where Royce Gracie, drained of warrior spirit by Shamrock’s mighty right hand, goes a full 90 minutes against Kazushi Sakuraba in an already legendary encounter, Ken Shamrock defeats BattleArts wrestler Alexander Otsuka (career record 2-7) by TKO.

 

Shamrock returned at PRIDE10 and faces Kazuyuki Fujita, a powerful freestyle wrestler who held a win over Mark Kerr.  In what I consider to be a supreme irony, Ken Shamrock, the man who won more by doing less than anybody in MMA, throws everything he has against the rock-hard noggin of Fujita – techniques Shamrock had never displayed outside of the protected confines of Pancrase.  Powerful punches, quick snapping combinations, even a few high kicks!  But Fujita absorbs everything Shamrock threw at him and kept moving forward.  Shamrock eventually turns to his corner and begs them to throw in the towel at about 7 minutes into the fight, and they do so.  Shamrock, his face drained of color, would briefly lose consciousness in the locker room before returning to his hotel.

 

So here are a few points I want to make about Ken Shamrock:

 

Shamrock’s non-Pancrase MMA record is a solid 7-2-3 (counting the UFC9 debacle with Severn as a draw, which I always do).  But this record is highly deceptive. Against opponents with winning records, Shamrock manages a lousy 1-2-3.  Against all others, Shamrock fattens his record at the expense of what boxing old-timers referred to lovingly as ‘tomato cans’:  6-0 against opponents with a combined career record of 17-34-4.  Shamrock entered three UFC tournaments and didn’t win a single one, but was rewarded with ‘Superfight’ status and his own PPV.

 

Now of course, maybe I’m just picking on ‘The Sham’ because of my generally misanthropic nature; let’s see what his fellow fighters have to say:

 

ROYCE GRACIE: (On his UFC5 Superfight with Shamrock) “No he was just holding onto it, he came in for a draw. HE KNOWS HE CANNOT BEAT ME. He came in for a draw. He knew he just didn't want to lose, that's why he requested the time limit. He knew he just wanted to have a draw, for him that's a victory.”

 

(On Shamrock & Kimo’s physiques): “It's not steroids, it's called performance enhancers (laughing). They just drink milk-they're big boys!”

 

DON FRYE (UFC8 & UUFC’96 champ): “Then at the UFC in Iowa [shamrock] and Mikey Burnett got up there and started talking a bunch of trash about Dan Gable.  You know, neither one of those guys was a collegiate wrestler and they have no right to say some of those things about Dan Gable.  I don’t know if they’re pulling some WWF angle and just wanted to stir up some heat.  That was just unprofessional and asinine of those guys.”

 

“ I think [shamrock] is full of shit and he has been lying to the fans for four years.  Hell, he can’t even finish a tournament”

 

TANK ABBOTT: "He's aptly named, SHAMrock. He's a fake, he's a fraud, he's a sham…Well let's put it this way, he had two opportunities to fight me and he pulled out both times, so you go figure out what's going on. I never pull out of a fight. "

 

DAN SEVERN (UFC5 & UUFC’95 champ):  “Do I care for his attitude? No. One of us has accomplished it on his own ability. The other has not."

 

And there you have it!  Ken Shamrock’s legacy in the fight world is one of half-truths and excuses being overlooked by promotional entities enamored of his physique and self-promotion.  While he may not have ever had another man’s genitals in his mouth (not that there’s anything wrong with that – sometimes you just need a ride home), Ken Shamrock nonetheless has had a career that would do any of Bert Prentice’s buttery love-muffins proud!  Ken Shamrock, we salute you with the First Annual DVDVR ‘Balls Across the Nose’ Award for MMA Fraudulence!  I’m sure you couldn’t be more proud.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Good grief. It would be one thing if that were an even handed portrayal, but that was clearly a smear piece.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I will say this about Ken Shamrock; as much as I don't like him and as annoying as he is, he has tried to improve and he's fought opponents that are at the top of the sport. You'd never see Royce take on Matt Hughes or Frank Trigg, special rules or not.

 

While that article is obviously one-sided and omits some facts in the hopes of bashing Ken, it shouldn't be ignored that it's mostly accurate and Ken's MMA Career is really blown out of proportion due to the fact that he was a WWF "star".

[Guest Brian]

I'm going to try and edit the Gordy/Keltner list to help sort through some of the names.

[razazteca 0]

Isn't that article about Shamrock a few years old?

[Guest Brian]

It is. But what has he done lately to change things?

[razazteca 0]

Let's see Ken Shamrock put over talent in UFC by losing to Tito Ortiz and Franklin. And he had a few fights in Pride such as his loss to Don Fry and his victory over Kimo.

[Guest Brian]

Putting over Franklin is arguable, though it was a much more gracious Shamrock than we're used to seeing. The fight was enough to really get him over, and the TV exposure was probably the biggest aid.

 

Tito's a different matter. No doubt he was a draw.

 

But, would either of the three losses or a win against Kimo affect his status in that analysis?

[Guest Brian]

BTW, if people want to get involved with voting shoot me a PM. Rudo and I are working on a Keltner/Gordy list for fighters, and I think it would be cool if everyone takes a guy or two and evaluate them.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I think the fact that he took on the LHW champ and current MW champ shows that he doesn't just take soft or easy fights, as the quote from Tank will have you believe.

 

What's a Keltner/Gordy list? Is that the criteria they used to evaluate a wrestler? I remember reading something about HBK on that awhile ago.

[Guest Brian]

Not to say he was taking on cans. Just that he had padded his win-loss in the past, and that against top quality talent Ken's record is not so good.

 

Keltner list was put together by Bill James, baseball historian and writer, to evaluate Hall of Famers. Meltzer reorganized it and added to it with the Gordy List.

[Guest Brian]

Rudo and I worked with the Gordy List (Meltzer for WON HOF) and Keltner List (Bill James for Baseball HOF) to come up with some standards by which to judge guys by. Named the Shamrock list for Frank .

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in the world? Was he ever regarded as the top fighter at his weight class? Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in his respective organization?

 

2. How many years did he have as a top fighter?

 

3. Did his career decline or suffer over the years?

 

4. Was he known for being an exciting fighter?

 

5. How many good fights or top quality fights has he been involved in?

 

6. How many memorable rivalries has he been involved?

 

7. What types of titles or tournaments has he won?

 

8. Does the fighter’s win-loss record reflect a hall of fame caliber fighter? What was his record against top competition?

 

9. How did the fighter respond to losses?

 

10. Was he innovative or influential? Did he make an impact on the evolution of fighting and fighting styles? Did his career lead to any rule changes?

 

11. Did this fighter evolve? Did he incorporate different styles and techniques? Did those techniques result in wins?

 

12. Did the fighter uphold the standard of sportsmanship?

 

13. Was he the most popular in his promotion? Did he ever anchor a promotion? Was he ever the star?

 

14. Was he able to transcend the sport? Did he gain mainstream recognition?

[Lei Tong 0]

I'd be willing to do write ups on a few guys over the next few days. Any requests?

[razazteca 0]

Masakatsu Funaki.

[Guest Brian]

I'm working on Coleman.

[Lei Tong 0]

Masakatsu Funaki

 

1.Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in the world? Was he ever regarded as the top fighter at his weight class? Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in his respective organization?

- Yes, he was regarded as one of best fighters in the world during the early 90's, as were a few other big Pancrase names. Weight classes weren't around for a few years, but by the time they became a staple of MMA, his status as a top fighter had already started dwindling. Also, few have ever been considered hands down "the best" in Pancrase with fighters constantly trading wins, and after Shamrock's departure Bas Rutten took up the mantle of Pancrase's best fighter, so no, Funaki was never cosndiered pancrase's greatest fighter.

 

2.How many years did he have as a top fighter?

- Some would argue that he was as good in '99 as he had been in '93, but with the quality of competition he defeated, it's hard to tell. I'll say '93-'98.

 

3.Did his career decline or suffer over the years?

- It did, but mostly as pancrase started to phase out works and bring more talented fighters into the mix.

 

4.Was he known for being an exciting fighter?

- Yes. Due to the anture of the bouts, few Pancrase amcthes were downright boring, and Funaki was often involved in entertaining bouts.

 

5.How many good fights or top quality fights has he been involved in?

- "Good fights?" Probably well over a dozen. "Great" fights? I'd say 2: v. Rutten II, & v. Kondo II.

 

6.How many memorable rivalries has he been involved?

- I'm not too familiar with any early Pancrase rivalries, especially since so many fighters fought each other so often anyways.

 

7.What types of titles or tournaments has he won?

- 2 time King of Pancrase

 

8.Does the fighter’s win-loss record reflect a hall of fame caliber fighter? What was his record against top competition?

- This is a very... complicated subject for Funaki, and many Pancrase fighters. The company had a LOT of works. Not only that, but the talent level of those in Pancrase's early days are hard to gauge, as few of the company's top stars fought much elsewhere. I'd say he legitimately lost to as many top names as he legtimately beat.

 

9.How did the fighter respond to losses?

- Losses rarely afected Pancrase fighters much, as they were expected every once in a while (moreso for others). To his credit though, after the brutal loss to Rutten in '96, he worked on his satnd-up game a fair bit.

 

10.Was he innovative or influential? Did he make an impact on the evolution of fighting and fighting styles? Did his career lead to any rule changes?

- Not really. As a whole, the Pancrase style and types of bouts he helped spawn have all but faded, with their main legacy being open-handed striking matches are the norm for amateur MMA bouts.

 

11.Did this fighter evolve? Did he incorporate different styles and techniques? Did those techniques result in wins?

- As I mentioned earlier, outside of the usual catch-wrestling practiced by other Pancrase fighters, Funaki would also study Muay Thai & boxing to complment his ground skills. He showed these skills in victories over journeymen John Renken & Tony paterra.

 

12.Did the fighter uphold the standard of sportsmanship?

- Yes. Funaki never came across as particularly cocky (outside of some over-the-top antics during works), and as with most Pancrase matches, began and ended most fights with a handshake.

 

13.Was he the most popular in his promotion? Did he ever anchor a promotion? Was he ever the star?

- While many of Pancrase's top stars either left the promotion or lost form, Funaki was easily their most consistent home-grown talent during his tenure, and while never the hands down best fighter, was pretty much it's biggest and msot well known star.

 

 

14.Was he able to transcend the sport? Did he gain mainstream recognition?

- I'm unsure how his popularity in Japan is, but I think it's a "no."

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Ken Shamrock

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in the world? Was he ever regarded as the top fighter at his weight class? Was he ever regarded as the greatest fighter in his respective organization?

 

Hard to say if he was the greatest fighter in the world. I haven't seen enough stuff outside the UFC to properly guage 1993-1996, which were Shamrocks fighting years. Given his loss to Gracie in 1993, I'd say Gracie was a the top UFC fighter for the early years. In 1994 and 1995 Shamrock was very successful with "wins" over Rutten and Funaki and drew Royce Gracie. The biggest win of his career came in 1995 over Dan Severn for the Superfight Title. He was the UFC's best fighter in 1995.

 

2. How many years did he have as a top fighter?

 

Some would say from 1993-1996, the early years especially considering the lack of talent. The early UFC's were basically him and Gracie as the 1 and 2 men, but it was only presented that way - Shamrock didn't really earn the right to be called second to Gracie from his performances. It's not like he won a UFC tournament. It was more like he was second by default. 1995 was a strong year though, given the Severn win and the Gracie draw. At best, I'd say 2 years as a proven top fighter.

 

3. Did his career decline or suffer over the years?

 

Yes. After he returned from the WWF he has been fighting under .500 with his wins being over guys with atrocious records. However, he did lose to top competition in Fujita, Frye (well, not "top"), Ortiz and Franklin so there is something to be said about his competitiveness (or money-wantingness).

 

4. Was he known for being an exciting fighter?

 

His second fights against Gracie and Severn are seen as two of the most boring fights in MMA history. For this alone, I'll say "no". To be fair, the majority of his fights ended with a submission, so the case could be made that he was an exciting fighter and people have looked forward to him fighting, but those two matches can't be ignored. In many cases I have heard people shun the UFC off the basis of watching those two fights.

 

5. How many good fights or top quality fights has he been involved in?

 

His fights against Ortiz and Frye were said by many to be exciting fights, the Ortiz one I'd agree with even though it was very one-sided, but the Frye fight wasn't all that great. I wouldn't exactly call the Ortiz fight "top quality", though. I sorta recall the Taktarov fight being pretty darn good, I should watch it again as I have it on tape somewhere round here.

 

6. How many memorable rivalries has he been involved?

 

His rivalry with Royce Gracie and Tito Ortiz are two of the most memorable feuds in MMA history with two of the most anticipated matches in MMA history.

 

7. What types of titles or tournaments has he won?

 

He was the first UFC Superfight/Heavyweight champion. First King of Pancrase, I believe. However this was during a sketchy time in the promotion.

 

8. Does the fighter’s win-loss record reflect a hall of fame caliber fighter? What was his record against top competition?

 

No. In the UFC, his only win of significance was against Dan Severn, and he lost the rematch. His career is filled with sketchy fights and lacklustre opponents.

 

9. How did the fighter respond to losses?

 

With excuses

 

He came back strong after his loss against Gracie, but that is countered by his loss against Fujita. Tough to say considering he has two different time periods in his career as a fighter.

 

10. Was he innovative or influential? Did he make an impact on the evolution of fighting and fighting styles? Did his career lead to any rule changes?

 

The Gracie fight started the ball rolling on time limits and such. Shamrocks Lions Den was one of the first known fight clubs in MMA and his fighters were all over the UFC during the first half of the companies history. Shamrock had the "look" of a fighter - was he the first one to wear the 5 ounce gloves? A very influencial fighter, in the end.

 

11. Did this fighter evolve? Did he incorporate different styles and techniques? Did those techniques result in wins?

 

He became more of a stand-up fighter in the tail-end of his career. He evolved in that way, but it wasn't to much success. He has won with various submissions - chokes, heel hooks, leg bars, armbars, but all of that is under the "submission fighting" banner, it's not like he used his guard or anything for them. He won with his style, and didn't go outside it.

 

12. Did the fighter uphold the standard of sportsmanship?

 

It's hard to say. I've been annoyed at Shamrock claiming a "win" over Gracie because of one punch and a whole lot of stalling. Shamrocks "I don't have to beat them, they have to beat me" mentality is shit. He wasn't unsportsmanlike though, and after his recent losses he has shown a great deal of class. Since he isn't a top fighter any more and he knows that, he can afford to be humble.

 

13. Was he the most popular in his promotion? Did he ever anchor a promotion? Was he ever the star?

 

Shamrock was the star of the UFC after Royce Gracie left, along with Dan Severn. 1995 and 1996, if he wasn't the top star or most popular, he was one of them. It's hard to say if he was the anchor, simply because Dan Severn was fighting more during this period and was putting more time in. Tank Abbott and Oleg Taktarov were establishing a following as well. When Shamrock came back against Tito, his fight was the biggest drawing fight to date for Zuffa. His fight with Franklin was seen by millions.

 

14. Was he able to transcend the sport? Did he gain mainstream recognition?

 

Yes. The whole "Worlds Most Dangerous Man" thing with ABC, being in the WWF, doing press and whatnot. Is he a household name? No. Is he more of a name than 99% of MMA fighters? Yes.

[Lei Tong 0]

Just 2 notes:

 

- IIRC, Shamrock vs. Taktarov was similar to Shamrock/Gracie II, only a little less boring.

 

- Tank was probably the first UFC fighter to use the small 5 ounce gloves during UFC VI.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I was thinking it was either Tank or Ken using the gloves.

[snuffbox 0]

Who beat Royce Gracie, and when?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Technically, Harold Howard beat Royce Gracie when his corner threw in the towel before the two fought because Gracie couldn't go on after his fight with Kimo. Gracie drew Shamrock the second time they fought, but that's because it reached a time limit and they didn't have judges back then. Shamrock claimed victory mainly do to busting Royce up with a punch and Gracie being unable to sub him. Gracie wouldn't fight again until 2000 when he lost to Sakuraba after 90 minutes of fighting when his corner threw the towel in. He "lost" to Hidehiko Yoshida in another PRIDE show, when the ref essentially pulled a SS97 and stopped the fight when Yoshida said Gracie was out from a choke - when Gracie wasn't.

[snuffbox 0]

So would you say, Rudo, that nobody has ever really 'beaten' Royce?

[Sass 0]

The Gordy List was *not* created by Dave Meltzer. It was created by Frank Jewett who wanted to see whether or not Terry Gordy should go into the WON HOF as a singles wrestler or if he should go in as a group with the Freebirds, since people like the Birds. Hence the name.

[Sass 0]

FIGHTERS

Tank Abbott - No; more success being an ass outside of ring

Mark Coleman - Yes

Randy Couture - Yes

Don Frye - No; more success outside of MMA (NJ)

Masakatsu Funaki - Yes

Rickson Gracie - No; fought no one of worth in last 15 years

Royce Gracie - Yes

Bas Rutten - Yes

Kazushi Sakuraba - No; Funaki matters more in MMA history

Dan Severn - Yes

Frank Shamrock - No; had a stronger career than older bro though

Ken Shamrock - No; made name during weak MMA period

Maurice Smith - No; got mother of all puncher chances wins on Coleman

 

MANAGEMENT/HISTORICAL

Rorion Gracie - Yes

Antonio Inoki - Yes

Kazuyoshi Ishii - No; aped Rorion

Satoru Sayama - No; aped Inoki

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Sakuraba definitely beat Royce Gracie.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

A NO for Sakuraba? A BUH??!!