The OAO RAW thread - 10/17/05

[cabbageboy 0]

This Raw tonight was so horribly misguided on every level. They literally spent the majority of the show blathering on and on about that money drawing babyface JIM ROSS??? I mean, yeah I feel sorry that the guy has (sort of) lost his job but here's some reality:

 

Jim Ross draws not one fucking dime. He does not wrestle (aside from the odd occasion to punish him). He does not add to PPV buyrates by announcing the show. Hell, he doesn't even add to Raw's ratings by announcing the show. No really, I took a look at the late 98-early 99 period when Ross was sick and Michael Cole took over. The ratings actually increased from roughly 5.0 to 6.5 by WM 15. In other words, while fans might not have liked Cole for shit and wanted Ross back it doesn't really MATTER to anyone who announces.

 

Bear in mind while they blathered about Ross all night they ignored the WWE champion the whole show and he's the guy you're supposed to hype your show and PPVs around.

 

Does anyone have a clue what the Raw bookers are doing or how any of this is supposed to draw money? Smackdown might have really tired feuds like UT/Orton, but at least they have feuds.

[CanadianChick 0]

Huh. I totally missed how Edge got eliminated. Was it during the break?

[MillenniumMan831 0]

I think he got injured during it. He was clutching his ribs while the trainer was checking him on the apron. It looked like he was trying to roll back in but the refs/trainer pulled him out to take him to the back. Kinda bizarre. Can't remember if it was on wwe.com or after the break.

[AndrewTS 0]

Foley could have saved his return match for SAMOA JOE.  The kind of guy who could give Foley one last **** match and maybe even his first ***** match.  Instead, He went with Carlito.

 

Bein' rich will fuck with you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh let it go you starting to sound like AndrewTS, leave Mick in peace

 

<---- Unapolegetic Foley supporter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since when do I plug RoH?

 

But let me just point out that Mick's come back for ANOTHER paycheck and is going to put over another guy who got a spot on the roster because of his dad.

 

It'll never happen, he'll never stop being what we see him as today. I really believe that. And with that said, I need to say that I hate the "Mick Foley character", I always have.

 

True, that. But when Mick did his transformation to Cactus promo leading up the Orton match, the ham was so thick you could pluck it out of the air, even for wrestling standards. It was horrible.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Jim Ross draws not one fucking dime.  He does not wrestle (aside from the odd occasion to punish him).  He does not add to PPV buyrates by announcing the show.  Hell, he doesn't even add to Raw's ratings by announcing the show.  No really, I took a look at the late 98-early 99 period when Ross was sick and Michael Cole took over.  The ratings actually increased from roughly 5.0 to 6.5 by WM 15.  In other words, while fans might not have liked Cole for shit and wanted Ross back it doesn't really MATTER to anyone who announces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He does not add to PPV buyrates by announcing the show.

Run a storyline that can draw and I guarantee that Ross can get it over better than anyone else in the company, and guess what that means? More buys, which means more money.

 

it doesn't really MATTER to anyone who announces.

 

That ranks up there as one of the dumbest things I've read on here.

 

Of course it matters who announces. There is a difference between an announcer who can get things over and make them seem important enough to buy, which Jim Ross can do better than anyone in the company, and a guy like Coach who couldn't sell shit.

 

And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?

[Guest JMA]

I didn't like the Carlito/Flair feud so I doubt I'll like the Carlito/Foley one. I don't blame Mick for coming back, but I think he could help the company more by teaching guys how to properly convey emotions and to develop better mic skills.

 

As I look over the Raw roster right now, it's kind of depressing. It'd really be best to merge the brands again and get rid of the dead weight.

[AndrewTS 0]

"And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?"

 

What's not to believe?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

"And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?"

 

What's not to believe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true. I would have thought that Austin would have at least argued to return against someone who might have drawn.

[Guest *KNK*]

"And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?"

 

What's not to believe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true. I would have thought that Austin would have at least argued to return against someone who might have drawn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just further proof that Mick and Austin are marks for the paycheck. Foley could really had his pick of the field, and would have made anyone look like gold, on promos and in the ring but they said "Carlito". Foley goes "add another zero and we're in business".

 

I would expect this from Austin but I used to think Foley thrived on creativity. Isn't this exactly what he complained about after he left WWE few years ago? My, how money talks.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

"And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?"

 

What's not to believe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true. I would have thought that Austin would have at least argued to return against someone who might have drawn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just further proof that Mick and Austin are marks for the paycheck. Foley could really had his pick of the field, and would have made anyone look like gold, on promos and in the ring but they said "Carlito". Foley goes "add another zero and we're in business".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what's the first thing they do in the battle royal? Have Carlito get squashed in seconds and be the first guy thrown out.

[AndrewTS 0]

I would expect this from Austin but I used to think Foley thrived on creativity.  Isn't this exactly what he complained about after he left WWE few years ago?  My, how money talks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup--the kind of stuff Foley complained about before coming back to put over Orton.

 

Foley's a hypocritical whore, and Austin's been for a long time. Again, what's surprising here?

 

However, at least Foley is likely to *put over* a *wrestler*, which is better than Austin's gimpy ass going over an active wrestler. Austin was bitching about WWE's creative direction before coming back last time. He bitched about how the writers know nothing about the business and that WWE pushes guys who have no chance in hell of connecting with the audience, IIRC.

[Guest *KNK*]

"And can anyone else believe that Steve Austin is coming out of retirement to face Coach?"

 

What's not to believe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true. I would have thought that Austin would have at least argued to return against someone who might have drawn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just further proof that Mick and Austin are marks for the paycheck. Foley could really had his pick of the field, and would have made anyone look like gold, on promos and in the ring but they said "Carlito". Foley goes "add another zero and we're in business".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what's the first thing they do in the battle royal? Have Carlito get squashed in seconds and be the first guy thrown out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That befuddles me. They had 15 other jobbers in that ring. Throw Conway out first.

[Guest *KNK*]

I would expect this from Austin but I used to think Foley thrived on creativity.  Isn't this exactly what he complained about after he left WWE few years ago?  My, how money talks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup--the kind of stuff Foley complained about before coming back to put over Orton.

 

Foley's a hypocritical whore, and Austin's been for a long time. Again, what's surprising here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Foley at least got creative license with Orton and was assured it wouldn't be for nothing. Orton continued to progress from that program. Here, already it's a re-hash of that same angle.

[Downhome 0]

I'll put it this way, and you guys know this must mean something coming from me:

 

With them saying that Foley/Carlito and Austin/Coach are booked for the PPV, it made me decide for now to not order it.

 

The only thing I'm even slightly interested in now is the HHH/Flair match. They're going to have to do a hell of a lot in the next two weeks to get me back on board.

 

And yes, that battle royal was horrible. They are pushing Edge and Carlito pretty hard on the show, and then they don't even put up a fight in the main match. Heck, they weren't really even focused on at all.

 

I also wish something would happen in this JR/Austin angle, where it becomes far too "real" for both of the guys, and they seriously just up and leave WWE. Imagine both of them walking out on TNA Impact together. I know it would take a hell of a lot for them to basicly go there to work for so little, but still, I can dream can't I?

[AndrewTS 0]

Foley at least got creative license with Orton and was assured it wouldn't be for nothing. Orton continued to progress from that program.  Here, already it's a re-hash of that same angle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did Foley think Orton has potential? That he was a future star just waiting for a big break? Or did he think that Orton looks like a goofy fratboy who doesn't really have anything about him that screams "star" and just took the money anyway?

 

Was Orton in danger of not getting that big break without Foley? Hell no.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Foley at least got creative license with Orton and was assured it wouldn't be for nothing. Orton continued to progress from that program.  Here, already it's a re-hash of that same angle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did Foley think Orton has potential? That he was a future star just waiting for a big break? Or did he think that Orton looks like a goofy fratboy who doesn't really have anything about him that screams "star" and just took the money anyway?

 

Was Orton in danger of not getting that big break without Foley? Hell no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing is that Orton did have a lot of potential as a top heel, but they blew that by both turning him babyface against Hunter, when Orton would have made a better heel in that storyline, and by rushing through his title win, split from Evolution and title loss all in a month. Orton could still be something big, and he probably will be because of who he is, but he could have been something so much bigger had he been handled right.

[BorneAgain 0]

Wow, that was really a sub-par Raw, and that's not the smark in me talking. Besides Austin's promo and the crotch shot of Mickey, there was nothing good on this show.

 

I have no excitement about Taboo Tuesday (another big shocker!) or the matches announced so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Say that after we get a no doubt incredible Rock-Conway match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well they're bringing back Austin and Foley for meaningless matches, might as well complete the trifecta and have Rock do a comedy feud of Conway attempting to defeat the "legend" Rock before being squashed in the ring and buried on the mic. It'll be the new Taboo Tuesday tradition.

[JoeDirt 0]

I don't get having Foley and Austin's return matches on a single brand PPV in barely hyped matches.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I don't get having Foley and Austin's return matches on a single brand PPV in barely hyped matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's called desperation and overloading everything they've got to try and draw ratings and buys.

[Guest MikeSC]

Or they don't know when Austin or Foley might flake out, since neither of them need the money, and thus, they can't really do long builds.

[Downhome 0]

Don't shoot me, but it's times like this that I wish Austin and Foley were more like Hulk Hogan. Stay with me now, seriously.

 

Usually when Hogan comes back, he does something really meaningful:

 

-vs. Rock (lost, pinned clean)

-vs. HHH (won WWE title)

-vs. Taker (lost WWE title)

-vs. Angle (lost, tapped out)

-vs. Billy & Chuck (won WWE tag straps)

-vs. Storm & Christian (lost WWE tag straps)

-vs. Brock (passed out, got the shit beat out of him)

 

-vs. Rock (lost)

-vs. Vince (won)

 

-Mr. America program

 

-Hall of Fame

-vs. Hassan & Daivari (won, this led to his big program with HBK)

-vs. HBK (won)

 

-Hogan mentions he'd like to wrestle Steve Austin

 

Now, like the guy or not, but at least when he shows up he is in somewhat meaningful programs. He even tapped out to Kurt Angle and pretty much to Brock Lesnar, and Lesnar just destroyed the guy.

 

Now on the other hand, I have despised the bullshit that we have had from Austin since WM19:

 

-RAW co-GM (if I remember correctly, most people hated this)

-"Sheriff of RAW" (ummm, wtf?)

-"Beer Bash" at ECW ONS

-Makes Hassan, a guy they are pushing, look horrible

-RAW Homecoming (stuns the McMahons)

-vs. Coach (his and JR's jobs on the line)

 

I mean, I know the guy was hurt, but most of the time when he comes back all he does is make people who can actually wrestle look like a joke (God knows how many times he did that as GM and *ugh* sheriff). Then when he's not doing that, he's involved in horrible segments, and soon to be a horrible pointless match. I don't understand why anyone would give a damn if he lost and gets fired, considering that he's almost never around.

 

Then we have Mick Foley:

 

-OMG LET ME PROMOTE THIS BOOK!

-WWF Commisioner

-Special guest referee

-OMG LET ME PROMOTE THIS BOOK, A NEW ONE!

-WWE blows Foley presenting him with the original Hardcore belt in a glass frame and they name him a WWE Hardcore Legend (not to mention the awesome video package)

-OMG LET ME PROMOTE THIS BOOK, A NEW ONE, YET AGAIN!

-Co-GM

-Foley takes his bags and goes home

-vs. Randy Orton, Batista, Ric Flair (lost, Orton pinned him)

-vs. Orton (lost)

 

-ECW ONS (commentary)

 

-Pipers Pit (Ortons kick his ass, which now seems to be pointless)

-OMG LET ME PROMOTE THIS BOOK, A NEW ONE, YET AGAIN AGAIN!

 

-vs. Carlito (yet another wtf)

 

Just thinking about most of this makes my head hurt. I hated his work as an official, his program with Orton didn't really mean anything (though the final match was pretty cool), I still don't understand what the point of having the Ortons kick his ass was (unless they'll be on opposite sides in a SS match next month), and this Carlito match is just more pointless than most everything else listed here.

 

My point, is that if Austin and Foley can't show up to really be a part of something that at least seems important, and actually means SOMETHING, I'd just rather them go away for good, and the same goes for Rocky. At least when Hogan shows up his prgrams are either historic (Rock, Vince, HBK, possibly Austin) or at least just means something. When Angle and Brock kicked his ass, to me that meant a lot, and it did to a lot of other people. It made both of the guys seem like they really did something, and that effect stayed with them in my opinion. When Orton beat Foley, it stuck around for a while, but eventually it was pointless and was just a single good match.

[Guest Brian]

I think part of it is that Foley and Austin try to come back for both the pay day and the experience of going out there, whereas Hogan knows his value, picks his points and gets what he wants. Hogan's in it solely for the money, and so he pushes his value. I think Foley and Austin still have a little bit of mark in them; and maybe Hogan's the only guy in the business who's not a mark and he looks at things as a business (and maybe Rock does to some extent).

[Guest *KNK*]

I think part of it is that Foley and Austin try to come back for both the pay day and the experience of going out there, whereas Hogan knows his value, picks his points and gets what he wants. Hogan's in it solely for the money, and so he pushes his value. I think Foley and Austin still have a little bit of mark in them; and maybe Hogan's the only guy in the business who's not a mark and he looks at things as a business (and maybe Rock does to some extent).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hogan doesn't relish off the pop as much as those two do. That's why Foley and Austin continue to come out and waste money making potential.

 

Austin can't survive outside his cushy niche market of the WWE fanbase. He might get a few movie and tv roles playing the generic bad guy but he'll never shine in Hollywood (in fact, Nash and Goldberg are better suited for Hollywood then Austin).

 

Foley has his books but Foley is the biggest mark of all marks. He is a mark for money and the attention. He gets by with it for his usual kind demeanor and legacy. Foley has proven to be a hypocrite countless times, and right now is at the height of it.

 

When he left WWE a few years ago, he cited the lack of creative integrity for being a principle reason for it. Let's pretend he honestly came back last year to give Randy Orton that major program he needed to get over, he got creative freedom for it and he was successful at it.

 

He spent a year working the indies and Ring of Honor, of course making sure not to blow the potential $$$ he could make with a match (along with the injury rehab) on some independent show in Manhattan but rather the glorious mid-card of a secondary brand ppv against the HOF bound Carlito.

 

Foley even showed, he has no emotion in his promos. He showed up, delievered his lines got the pop and phoned it in. He spent months praising Samoa Joe and CM Punk as the future and with a golden opportunity to make one of them stars, he settles for what Vince wants and decides to work a program with yet another mid-card heel who needs heat.

 

Hogan is a businessman, first and foremost. He'll put someone over, because he knows it's good for business and because he'll get something out of it. He knows his pop is fueled by nostaglia and will smartly limit his time to make sure he doesn't over-stay his welcome.

 

Hogan loves the pop but he'll gladly take the money above all. The pop has ruined Austin and Foley's credibility.

[Downhome 0]

Hogan's in it solely for the money, and so he pushes his value.

 

edit

 

; and maybe Hogan's the only guy in the business who's not a mark and he looks at things as a business (and maybe Rock does to some extent).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hogan is a businessman, first and foremost. He'll put someone over, because he knows it's good for business and because he'll get something out of it. He knows his pop is fueled by nostaglia and will smartly limit his time to make sure he doesn't over-stay his welcome.

 

And all of that, to me, has made for better and more entertaining programs and television.

 

I do not agree that Hogan is in it soley for the money, I just can't believe that. There have been times in his career where it has obviously looked like he truly cares for the business and the workers, and has done the right thing. Yes there have been times where people report he was why this guy or that guy was held down, but still, he has shown some care for the business as well.

 

At times when I see Hogan on TV, and when I've seen him live, there are moments when I can see the mark even deep inside of him.

[Fökai 0]

Flair's promo was unbelieveable.

 

Fuck, we're just living in his world when it comes to promos.

[King Cucaracha 0]

"You're a little late on the sound effects, but go ahead."

 

That and "SIC HIM KURT, SIC HIM" was fantastic. If it were just heel Vince around, I could deal with that, rather than the entire McMahon overload.

 

Also, crowd were clinically dead for the majority of the show. And rightfully so. Hell, JBL's music got one of the best pops of the night.

[Black Lushus 0]

Shelton pulling himself back into the ring got a big pop only to have a total crowd deflation immediately following when Kane clotheslined him right back out...now that I think about it, why didn't they just automatically make Kane one of the qualifyers? We all knew he'd win the minute they announced the battle royal...poor, poor Shelton...

 

I dug the Flair promo, damn that man bleeds buckets....the best thing about it is that HHH didn't try to overshadow him and hog up 20 minutes of airtime...of course it doesn't matter because he'll win the fued anyway...

 

I know Austin's promos are stale and even seem incoherent at times, these days, but I'll be damned if I didn't laugh my ass off when he told Stephanie he didn't want her balls to drop out after he lifted her skirt...

[Guest Coffey]

Really though, Triple H should win the feud. I mean, it's not like he needs the rub from Flair but Triple H is still very active when it comes to wrestling. Flair, well, even though he's the IC champion, doesn't really wrestle all that much.

[Black Lushus 0]

nah, in this particular fued, i think Flair should go over to preserve a legacy that really has been gettng tarnished a lot lately...Triple H could survive a loss to Flair, he'll make sure of that...

[Guest Biggles]

Pretty boring show for the most part. I wasn't high on the Steve Austin thing. He was incoherent for the first 2/3 of the promo, and he appeared to be either drunk or nervous. No one can deliver a punchline like Austin, but the segment went way too long and I don't think it is wise for WWE to be giving anyone who isn't going to wrestle even part time (McMahon's included) 20 minutes a week, especially someone with the star power of an Austin or Hogan who can overshadow the entire roster yet not do anything to draw any money for now. I guess crowd pops are fun, but it's counterproductive to business. Stephanie was looking mighty, mighty hot again.

 

Ric Flair was incredible with one of the best promos he has done in a long, long time.

 

Aside from that, the show seemed to drag quite a bit.