Its beginning...

[SuperJerk 0]

My personal, religious belief is that a decision like this involves only two people: the women considering the abortion, and God. Everyone else needs to fuck off.

 

And of course that leaves the baby with no say in the matter.

 

The "baby" isn't able to form a coherent thought yet. Of course it doesn't get a say.

 

 

No, I'm not a beleiver in the "life begins at conception" argument.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

If life begins at conception, then pregnant women should be able to use the carpool lane with no other seats in her car filled with living tissue.

[Sandman9000 0]

My personal, religious belief is that a decision like this involves only two people: the women considering the abortion, and God. Everyone else needs to fuck off.

 

And of course that leaves the baby with no say in the matter. That "logic" is flawed.

 

If I want to die than that's my choice. I don't want that decision taken away from me when I'm in the first real 9 months of my life.

 

Do you have a fake 9 months of life in there somewhere?

He has a whole fake life somewhere

 

Two to one says his fake life is better then his real life.

[Special K 0]

But wouldn't the gay marriage somewhat limit the amount of abortions?

 

No, because the ABORTIOSODOMY lobby is going to make it possible for gay men to get pregnant, just so they can abort the babies! Abortiosodomy RAT FILTH RATS!!!

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Looks like Mississippi is on deck: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11621741/

 

JACKSON, Miss. - Gov. Haley Barbour said Wednesday he would probably sign a bill under consideration in the state House that would ban most abortions in Mississippi.

 

The measure, which passed the House Public Health Committee on Tuesday, would allow abortion only to save a woman’s life. It would make no exception in cases of rape or incest.

 

Barbour, a Republican, said he preferred an exception in cases of rape and incest, but if such a bill came to his desk: “I suspect I’ll sign it.”

 

The full House could vote on the bill next week, and it would then go to the Senate.

 

South Dakota lawmakers passed a similar bill last week that was intended to provoke a legal showdown over Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing the right to an abortion. The measure is awaiting Republican Gov. Mike Rounds’ signature. He has said he is inclined to sign it.

 

Mississippi already has some of the strictest abortion laws in the nation. It requires a 24-hour waiting period and counseling for all abortions, plus the consent of both parents for minors who seek the procedure.

 

A Missouri lawmaker filed similar legislation to ban abortions, as well as a measure to amend the state’s constitution.

 

“The time has come for these decisions to be made in these deliberative bodies, not by nine men and women who wear black robes,” said Republican state Sen. Jason Crowell.

 

The Missouri Legislature has a solid anti-abortion majority and has enacted various restrictions to the procedure.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Hey now, if Scott Peterson was tried for a double murder, then that fetus is alive, BABY~!

[Jingus 0]

One thing I don't understand is the laws that don't make exceptions for rape/incest. I mean, would you really want to be alive if you came into existance by, say, your grandpa/father raping your then 14-year-old mother/sister?

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I don't get it either. A woman gets raped by some stranger, and then has to be reminded of it every second of every day for 9 months & beyond? Not to mention people congratulating her & her having to handle that awkward situation (especially if she's not married/together w/ someone - "who's the father?").

[Kaertos 0]

In general, I believe that it is better to give more freedom than to take it away. Do I believe life begins at conception? Irrelevant. I'd rather that abortion be an option than outlawed in the same way that I'd rather gay marriage be legal than illegal. The more freedom of choice we have taken away, the easier it will be to take away the big freedoms.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Do I believe life begins at conception? Irrelevant.

 

How can something potentially being murder be irrelevant?

[Kaertos 0]

Now, before I reply, I want to say that I am keeping my belief on this matter one way or another out of it.

 

It is irrelevant because we don't know if there is a murder being committed, and probably never will. It becomes a matter of belief and pure philosophy. Given that it could go either way, I err on the side that gives more freedoms rather than taking them away regardless of what I personally believe on the subject.

 

Besides, I simply feel unqualified to make such a judgement. I am not a woman and I am not a father. There was a co-worker of mine a bunch of years back that used to talk about stuff like this all the time. He said that abortion was wrong and he believed life began at conception. I used to tell him to tell me that again after he got his girlfriend pregnant by accident, or his sister had an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy. Its amazing how many people's beliefs change in those situations.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Blah.

 

I believe life begins the moment a fetus can sustain life on its own. Up until then, it is a parasite living off the woman's blood/oxygen/etc.

 

Now that it's out there, what does it matter? It doesn't, because I don't have any say in the ultimate decision of when life begins.

 

But, based on that, I believe abortion should be legal. Not only for the 'where life begins' issue, but social issues as well.

 

I have to do some research to continue my point, so this will be edited once I get home.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

It is irrelevant because we don't know if there is a murder being committed, and probably never will.

 

So because it can't be 1000% proven that there's a murder being committed (and I really don't see how killing something that will become a human is any different then killing something that is a human) it doesn't matter at all and no one should care?

 

Right.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't get the "life doesn't begin at conception" argument. At conception, a process is started that, unless interferred with by outside means or horrible accidents, will result in a baby being born. I just don't get how stopping that baby from being born is any different then strangling it at birth.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

It is irrelevant because we don't know if there is a murder being committed, and probably never will.

 

So because it can't be 1000% proven that there's a murder being committed (and I really don't see how killing something that will become a human is any different then killing something that is a human) it doesn't matter at all and no one should care?

 

Right.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't get the "life doesn't begin at conception" argument. At conception, a process is started that, unless interferred with by outside means or horrible accidents, will result in a baby being born. I just don't get how stopping that baby from being born is any different then strangling it at birth.

 

So you tell me what 'outside means' or 'horrible accident' I went through that caused my miscarriage at two months.

 

Tell me it was 'supposed to happen' or 'God wanted me to experience that' ... go on.

 

Then call me a murderer because my body rejected the thing that was going to become a baby.

[Jingus 0]

. . .

 

Okay, I think everyone involved in this discussion who has a penis might as well just shut up now.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't get the "life doesn't begin at conception" argument. At conception, a process is started that, unless interferred with by outside means or horrible accidents, will result in a baby being born. I just don't get how stopping that baby from being born is any different then strangling it at birth.

 

Shhhh, don't mention that part, it just gets everyone uppity.

 

Personally, I'd like the abortion debate a lot more if the two sides changed their names to "Anti-Life" and "Anti-Choice".

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

. . .

 

Okay, I think everyone involved in this discussion who has a penis might as well just shut up now.

 

Good idea.

[SuperJerk 0]

. . .

 

Okay, I think everyone involved in this discussion who has a penis might as well just shut up now.

 

That's an exceptionally childish tactic.

[Jingus 0]

Well, after what SA said, it kinda makes the rest of our opinions slightly irrelevant, or at least uninformed/inexperienced by comparison.

[SuperJerk 0]

If you were posting that to be ironic, I apologize.

 

I just don't buy into the whole "only a woman can have an opinion on abortion" argument, since there are a lot of women out there who also want to ban all abortions. If the abortion argument was limited to just women, then you'd basically have the exact same controversy.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I agree with Y2Jerk. Should whites not have had a say in the Civil Rights movement or when it came time to abolish slavery? If I never enlist in the military, does that mean I can never have an opinion on a war? How about if I do go, does that make all of your opinions irrelevant? Are Vyce and Zack Malibu the only ones qualified to talk about gay marriage?

 

As you can tell, I could go on and on.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

If I never enlist in the military, does that mean I can never have an opinion on a war? How about if I do go, does that make all of your opinions irrelevant?

 

It wouldn't make our opinions irrelevant, but your opinion would carry more weight in a debate over said war, since you've been there, done that.

 

Personally, I would never get an abortion unless my health was at stake or I was the victim of rape. But who are the lawmakers to tell any woman what they can and cannot do with their own body?

[SuperJerk 0]

If I never enlist in the military, does that mean I can never have an opinion on a war? How about if I do go, does that make all of your opinions irrelevant?

 

It wouldn't make our opinions irrelevant, but your opinion would carry more weight in a debate over said war, since you've been there, done that.

 

Personally, I would never get an abortion unless my health was at stake or I was the victim of rape. But who are the lawmakers to tell any woman what they can and cannot do with their own body?

 

Some of those lawmakers who want the outlaw are women, and they seem to think they know better than us pro-choice men.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Okay, I think everyone involved in this discussion who has a penis might as well just shut up now.

 

So does this mean that if there was talk of conscription, no woman would be allowed to have an opinion?

 

So you tell me what 'outside means' or 'horrible accident' I went through that caused my miscarriage at two months.

 

I used horrible in the sense that, in my opinion, anything that causes a miscarriage is horrible. I have no idea what would've caused yours, because I'm not a doctor - but was it not an accident? The point I was trying to make is that unless something goes wrong between conception and birth (and in your case, something must've, I assume) a baby will be born, thus, conception is the start of life.

 

Then call me a murderer because my body rejected the thing that was going to become a baby.

 

Like I said, accident. It's only murder if you deliberately kill the thing. Accidents happen, and that's no one's fault.

 

But who are the lawmakers to tell any woman what they can and cannot do with their own body?

 

The same lawmakers who tell me what I can and cannot do with mine. I cannot legally inject myself with heroin, nor can I legally speed my car around at a hundred miles an hour. Hell, legally I can't even kill myself. That's what lawmakers do, fer chrissakes - they make laws which make things illegal.

 

Besides, I'd argue that the baby isn't "your body" in the sense that, say, your arm is. You wanna cut your arm off, that's your choice; but it wouldn't be if your arm was about to grow into it's own person.

 

And besides, they're really just telling the doctors which operations they can and cannot legally perform.

 

"Anti-Life" and "Anti-Choice".

 

I'm sorry, I really hate the use of the word "choice" in this context, as if making abortions illegal somehow forces women to get pregnant. It's really, really easy to not get pregnant. I believe the choice is made when you decide to engage in an activity that exists specifically for the purpose of creating babies. It'd be like me getting behind the wheel of my car, drunk, killing someone, then claiming I didn't "choose" to get into an accident. I knew what the circumstances could lead to, and I did it anyway; it's my own damned fault.

 

Not that I ever have driven drunk; just an example.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

I'm sorry, I really hate the use of the word "choice" in this context, as if making abortions illegal somehow forces women to get pregnant. It's really, really easy to not get pregnant. I believe the choice is made when you decide to engage in an activity that exists specifically for the purpose of creating babies. It'd be like me getting behind the wheel of my car, drunk, killing someone, then claiming I didn't "choose" to get into an accident. I knew what the circumstances could lead to, and I did it anyway; it's my own damned fault.

 

Not that I ever have driven drunk; just an example.

 

Wouldn't it be easier then to schill abstinance and birth control?

 

And you're right, accidents do happen. Like a condom breaking. What makes one accident 'fixable' or 'allowable' and others not?

[Slayer 0]

Ban conception

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Huzzah!

[The Metal Maniac 0]

And you're right, accidents do happen. Like a condom breaking. What makes one accident 'fixable' or 'allowable' and others not?

 

When did I say accidents were fixable?

[Kaertos 0]

The reason I look at it like I do, trying to take the emotion out of it, is that this is simply a highly emotional topis that nine times out of ten ends up being argued purely on an emotional level rather than a sensible, logical, informed level.

 

Not that I'm saying that is happening here, in general I think this discussion has been far kinder than I would have expected.

 

To me, this isn't a question of murder or not. I think that is a very strong word to throw out there when the facts are very vague. The arguments simply do not have an easy answer. If they did, we wouldn't still be having this debate 30 years after the court decision.

 

All I am saying is that, regardless of your belief about when life begins, there is no proof of any of it on either side. There is no proof that life begins at conception, or that life does not begin at conception. To me, it is a question of either granting or denying the freedom to make the choice. I can't, in good conscience, sit here and say that a woman doesn't have the right to have an abortion because I believe it is murder.

 

As I've said, I'd like to point out that I haven't stated my belief on the matter because I think, as a matter of law, it is irrelevant.

[Jingus 0]

It's essentially a two-part argument:

 

1. At what point does a zygote officially become a human being?

 

2. Which is more important: the rights of the mother, or the rights of the soon-to-be child?

 

And since there's no way to scientifically provide a hard answer for either one of those questions, people rely on their own personal beliefs to form an opinion.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Kaertor hit the nail on the head.

 

1 & 2 are irrelevant. Completely.

 

You either allow people to have the freedom to have an abortion, or you don't.

 

You either legislate morality, or you don't.

 

We as a society will likely not come to a overall accepted conclusion in our lifetime.

 

Therefore, you make a choice to either allow freedom, or not allow it.

 

Jesus didn't go around stopping people from making choices that sent them to hell. He educated them, talked to them, and blah blah. But he left the choice up to the individual. Same for God and Free Will.

 

And that right there is where the religious pro-life movement loses any sort of logical basis for their argument.

 

Leaving us with the question of protecting life. Until we as a society define a universal standard of life, we should have a choice.