OAO ECW TV Thread - June 13th 2006

[Guest StylesMark]

It was BAD.

 

RArrrr!!! ZOMBIE!!!

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Damn, I think they should just keep ECW events in the East coast, in just New York, Philly and Jersey. Those are the ECW crowds.

[CBright7831 0]

A Internet God: I just realized the Zombie looked like Kerry Von Erich

CBright101010: And this ECW thing will be just like Kerry Von Erich in a few months

[Guest Skironox]

/agreed.

 

Sad that the best part of the show was watching the recap of Tazz/King and getting the old school heel vibe from watching King.

 

Tazz and Styles looked visibly embarressed to be there. Watching them try and hype it up ("This new ECW is better than ever!") made me die a little bit inside.

 

I was thinking that last nights Raw was acceptably bad because they probably had big plans for tonight, but yeesh, it came off as great compared to this crap.

[Aero 0]

Just an overall horrible show. I think I actually liked Raw better. Was it really necessary to replay the entire Tazz-Lawler segment from the PPV?

[NoCalMike 0]

Having said what I have already said about tonight's show, I don't think all hope is lost. It still stands to be seen what the show will be like Post-Vengeance when hopefully the WWE/ECW crossover stuff is over, or at least put on hold until the next big WWE vs. ECW show.

 

I think the Zombie guy was a one time deal to take a jab at Sci-Fi execs.

 

I wish they would STOP SHOWING the entire ECW roster backstage, when the roster is barely 10 guys....lol.

 

Stop saying the word, extreme and/or extremely already. WE GET IT.

 

Oh and quite frankly FUCK what PWInsider says, this show reeked of WWE Creative booking. All the way down to the commentary.

 

It does deserve more then one week though.

[Aero 0]

I think they have more problems than arenas and taping schedules. I'm not a huge Justin Credible fan but the way he was completely destroyed was unreal.

 

Yeah, I didn't get why Tazz mentioned how he was "a member of the famed Impact Players" but didn't reference that Justin was ECW Champion.

 

Joey Styles mentioned Justin as a former champion.

[Guest Coffey]

Well, I saw an episode of WOW with a drunk Bobby Heenan that was worse...I think.

[Guest StylesMark]

I never thought they'd make something worse than WWF's "WCW".

 

They did. You guys can wait all you want.

 

Dead, dead, dead.

 

Aldo got treated as he should have, BTW.

[Angle-plex 0]

-Zombies. Vampires. Teased Nudity. John Cena. I don't know what to say. There was nothing I enjoyed about this show at ALL.

 

-All the pointless WWE cross promotion....No ECW chants....no RVD chants. At times it feels like this whole bringing back ECW thing is just another attempt to get Cena over. Seriously, ECW's first segment after a five year abscence was Cena beating up Edge...then RVD...then Heyman.

 

-The Vampire and Zombie! I love the new breed of ECW.

 

-ECW advertises WWE's album. They're hardcore.

 

-Tazz and Styles have to be throwing up in their mouths just a little every time they shilled this show. This was just every other WWE show but somehow WORSE and one of the worst WWE produced shows I have seen in a while. I shouldn't be surprised, I know. Maybe it will get better in a few months but with Vince's track record the past few years I wouldn't count on it.

[reign 0]

I'm still holding out hope that maybe after Vengence or sooner Heyman comes out and says that Vince and Sci-Fi made him put this crap on t.v....the best possible storyline would be to hold the title hostage until he can get creative control...from the get go this show looked just like fucking Raw with more commercials and waaay too much hype on the 2 PPV's...I feel the hand of Stephanie on this as the ECW "roster" got no sold and we got a damn zombie and a vampire on the first show...I'm just shaking my head out how wierd the whole night was...the ECW crew just looked so damn excited to be there that they didn't realize that this was coming off as a bad Velocity...but we still have some time folks...oh and no more stupid blondes that can't even do a simple strip tease..

[Downhome 0]

Like I said on another board, if they are going to have a zombie (even if it's just for one night), I think they should have Roadkill feud with Burger King's "Big Buckin' Chicken" ASAP.

 

We had Joey telling the fans, being dead serious, to not chant dirty things. Then to open the show we had a segment no different than anything on RAW and SD. The first match was Kurt Angle squashing a former ECW tag champ and WORLD champ. I know it's Justin Credible, and many of you don't care, but that isn't what should've been done, not at all. Not to mention it looks like yet another WWE guy just squashing ECW talent.

 

Then, for no fucking reason, we have a chick "strip". Hey Vince, Kimona she was not, and you just know that's what they were going for. She couldn't even get her bra off.

 

We had the entire Tazz/Lawler segment on the show. And besides that we had recap after recap, one of which was going over what happened just minutes earlier at the start of the show. It's a one hour show for the love of God, that's not needed.

 

I guess Sandman's gimmick will be that he beats the shit out of horrible gimmicks (Eugene, Zombie). That wont get older than dirt in a matter of weeks, not at all. Heck, it's already old if you ask me. Yes, I know the point of The Zombie was to pick on SciFi, but still, come the fuck on now.

 

The crowd was horrible, oh my God. The majority of the fans looked at Sandman like they had no clue at all what was going on.

 

We had a random shot of an OMG vampire.

 

The main even consisted of TBS squashing the entire ECW roster, except for Sabu. Not only that but the match was a pure WWE version of their old hardcore bouts.

 

I have no clue how Tazz can sleep at night after saying things like he likes the new ECW better than the old one, really. Also, as of right now, we don't have any ECW feuds at all. We have Cena/Sabu, RVD/Edge, and Angle/Orton. Maybe we can count TBS/Big Guido, but I don't know about that.

 

The best thing to come from all of this so far, to me, is Sabu. Not just because of his work (I've always been a blind mark for his matches, they entertain the hell out of me), but also because he deserves to be making this money now, and he deserves to be on this big stage. He's worked his ass off for years, so I'm very happy to see him getting this huge push.

 

I know I said we need to wait until after the ECW/WWE stuff to die out before we judge the new ECW show, and I still stand behind that, but holy lord was tonight's show a mess unlike most other messes in the history of wrestling. There's no way in hell that Paul Heyman had a hand in putting the majority of this together, I just refuse to believe that at all. Maybe since the WWE stars are involved and WWE creative wants total control right now, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm willing to wait it out, but they have a hell of a lot to improve on after the show tonight.

[Kizzo 0]

It was pathetic....

 

This should prove to McMahon that a ECW/Smackdown taping in the same arena isn't going to work...... ECW doesnt' look nor feel right in a big arena....small venues were the crowd is more invovled/hyped = ECW!!

 

I am so happy this show was horrible...hopefully the rating is too..

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I think they have more problems than arenas and taping schedules. I'm not a huge Justin Credible fan but the way he was completely destroyed was unreal.

 

I felt the same way. Again, not a big fan of him, but he was treated like a jobber.

That's cuz Justin Credible *IS* a jobber. Who cares if he got squashed? He's a nobody.

 

Don't diss The Zombie. Best part of the show. He needs to be a regular part of the roster.

[cabbageboy 0]

Truth be told, if there was a big problem I had with the show is that it seemed like there were too many commercials. They really need 2 hours. This stuff tonight would be fun for half of a show, but then it just warms you up for the RVD title defense in the main event. Know what I mean?

 

Lighten up though. I mean hell, this was nowhere near WCW mid to late 1999 level bad. Some of this stuff like the Zombie and the Vampire dude you just have to go with and laugh at. It wasn't meant to be serious.

[Downhome 0]

One more thing.

 

If the shows continue to be like this, I think it's plain as day that the plan right now is to pull in a few new fans to check out ECW, then put on horrible shows only to make RAW and SD look that much better in hopes that those new fans that ECW draws in based on the talent and name only then change over to watch RAW and SD full time.

[Enigma 0]

That show was beyond horrible. So much for this project.

[mfn 0]

It was said before, and I will say it again...

 

This 'ECW' show had nothing but WWE all over it.

 

I refuse to beleive that Heyman had anything to do with it. There is no way, and if he did, then WHAT THE FUCK PAUL?

[Guest StylesMark]

2 hours? You're fuckin' crazy, Cabbageboy.

[Astro101 0]

I have a better appreciation for TNA being able to fit 20 different angles in an hour and somehow making it work and being entertaining. The show tonight was just bad and laughable. Hopefully we won't have a sci-fi character of the week each week...but I dreadfully think we will. ECW with Smackdown audience won't work. Smackdown with ECW audience won't work.

[reign 0]

The sad thing is I doubt Sabu is making any more doing this than he was with the TNA and Indy bookings but I am glad he's there as he's becoming the one bright spot...RVD and the rest of the "roster" are being made to look like jobbers..WTF Heyman...did you forget about "RVD 420"? and the cocky RVD...I've had enough of the dopey RVD...he's the fucking WWE champion for crying out loud..he has THE BELT...if fact he has 2 World titles right now..he should be treated better that this...

[EMAXSAUN 0]

I hope tonight is a huge slap in the face to who decided to book this, because it was not Heyman.

 

Look here:

 

If you are going to run the show on the same time as SmackDown, good god, at least do it after. And this is only if you have to. ECW needs to run smaller venues. They NEED to. If they can't due to time issues they NEED to run AFTER SmackDown, not before. Dim the lights, and at least try to make it have an ECW vibe. I don't see what's so difficult about doing that. Yeah, there are chants...they could have it on a little bit of a delay.

 

Honestly I am going to wait until after Vengance, but honestly they really need to hype of next week's show, because they just LOST the entire old school ECW crowd with that garbage. Hopefully they tear themselves away from WWE after Vengance and the title situation is resolved, but honestly, I am not optimistic right now. /end of rant

[geniusMoment 0]

I'm not watching that shit again. Fuck, I can't believe I bought fucking tickets for the show at the ECW Arena on the 24th. I was going to drag my girl with me to show her ECW, now I'll probably just save the trip and give away the tickets. This blows.

[Angle-plex 0]

Two hours of that? Holy fuck.

 

I'm actually laughing at people thinking the biggest problem with this show was taped before Smackdown. The entire thing was a disaster with no redeeming qualities.

[Downhome 0]

I'm going to watch again, but that's just because I'm a fucking sucker and I admit it. I will say though that I'm sure that the majority of all of those ECW fans who haven't watched WWE at all and this was their "coming home" in terms of watching mainstream wrestling, I doubt they'll ever, EVER, tune in again.

[k thx 0]

Yeah.

[Downhome 0]

Now that the board is back up, here are some news bits from PWInsider:

 

Last night's show was written by Paul Heyman and then put through the tweaking process by WWE creative. For those of you who thought Heyman would have some kind of creative control of the brand, you found out otherwise last night. This is a Vince McMahon production and we saw that last night. Reports backstage were that Heyman wrote the show to meet McMahon's expectations and visions of ECW.

 

Speaking of Heyman, people who saw him backstage told me it was pretty clear that he thought the show was a train wreck. In fact, everyone I talked to in the company felt the same way. They all knew that the show was a complete disaster and a failure.

 

The reason Tazz's PPV "match" with Jerry Lawler was put on the show is because the show actually ran short and they had to fill time. They also missed a few cues in the battle royal, forcing the production team to fix the mistakes in the 90 minute window that they had after the taping ended to before it aired.

 

Ring Announcer Steven DeAngelis was brought in to work the show but was told in the afternoon that he was not going to be used and sent home, despite the fact that WWE had told DeAngelis to come to the show and that he would be used. WWE chose to use Justin Roberts instead. I would ask why, but there wouldn't be a good answer so why bother? I think it was a really low move by WWE to DeAngelis. Then again, at least he wasn't a part of the train wreck.

 

As Dave Scherer noted earlier, Paul Heyman wrote last night's ECW script. I was told by several sources that Kevin Dunn and Vince McMahon fought with Heyman on several elements of the show and won out.

 

The Sandman was originally booked to cane an alien last night, but The Sci Fi Network didn't want an alien getting beat up on their network, since, I guess, they thought it would cause an upheaval among their fan base. Perhaps only Stargate SG-1 can beat up the aliens? Anyway, SciFi stepped in and we got the Zombie instead.

 

Unless there is a major change in philosophy, You can expect a LOT more science fiction/supernatural themed elements over the next few weeks as well in the new Extreme Championship Wrestling.

 

Former NWA and ECW star Jack Victory and former ROH champion Xavier were backstage last night in Trenton, New Jersey.

 

The Zombie that was defeated by Sandman tonight was Northeastern independent wrestler Tim Arson, who was trained by WWE Hall of Famer Johnny Rodz. Of late Arson has been making a lot of appearances for the World Wrestling Council in Puerto Rico. He's has had several WWE tryouts as well.

 

The Vampire that made a cameo outside of the Arena tonight was the former Mordecai, Kevin Fertig.

 

The next "supernatural" style character you can expect to see in ECW will be a tarot card reading witch portrayed by Shelly Martinez as WWE filmed vignettes with her tonight in Trenton, New Jersey.

 

For those of you interested, WWE has added all of the ECW performer shirts to their Shopzone website. They were selling all of the shirts at the concession stand last night in Trenton, New Jersey as well. Sorry to say there is no T-shirt yet available for The Zombie, however.

 

Axl Rotten finally surfaced over the last 24 hours, posting on his MySpace.com website "No Comment" when it came to wrestling and that he had been taking some personal time to himself over the last week. Rotten also began touching base with his friends as none had heard from him after the date of the Monday Night Raw taping he didn't make a few weeks back.

 

Several readers sent word that former ECW star Joel Gertner was spotted outside the Hammerstein Ballroom prior to the ECW PPV last weekend handing out flyers for MXW, an independent promotion he is currently booking.

 

And here are two articles by the guys at the site, one of which is by Mike Johnson who was at the show last night:

 

ECW'S DEBUT ON SCI FI A TRAIN WRECK THAT CAN BE FIXED BUT PROBABLY WON'T BE

by Dave Scherer @ 11:23:00 AM on 6/14/2006

 

Folks, I am here to tell you that I am a sucker. A big sucker. An all day, big fat lollipop sucker. Why, you ask, am I admitting to you all today that I am a rube? Well, I went into last night's ECW debut on Sci Fi show actually believing Vince McMahon when he said that he understood that this show had to be different from other WWE programming to succeed and he would make sure that it was. Yep, I am a sucker. I should have known better.

 

Now, I want to make very clear at the outset that I don't expect the new version of ECW to be like its predecessor. I think comparisons between then and now are just not fair, for a number of reasons. I don't expect this product to be like the ECW of the mid nineties. It's just not a realistic expectation. This company is owned by McMahon. It's his money and he has control of the product. I appreciate and respect that, believe me, I do. I want to be clear in saying that I am not yearning for the old days here, I am just a long-time wrestling fan looking for an alternative product that is written for a more mature fan and not so obvious in all of its storylines, like Raw and Smackdown are. Again, I just want an alternative. By definition, that would be a product that is different from the other brands that WWE currently offers. Last night's debut was anything but that. Basically, it was a really, really bad episode of Raw.

 

There was no edginess. About the only thing they could point to as being "hardcore" was Kelly's striptease and while she is ridiculously hot, is it any different than anything we see on the "big two"? Nope, except for the fact that the other divas actually know how to unhook a bra.

 

There was no intelligent booking either. It's a good thing there were a lot of little kids at the show because it was written for them.

 

As you can tell, I hated the show, hated it with a passion. I hated it so much that I didn't even want to write about it today. I didn't hate it because "it defamed ECW". I hated it because no matter what measure you judge it on, it was a wretched hour of wrestling. What made it worse was that I was hoping for a fun alternative to Raw and it was anything but that.

 

But, I will try to be constructive here and point out some of the problems I saw last night:

 

*The presentation. The show looked exactly like Raw and Smackdown in the way it was shot, presented, formatted and announced. There was no "grainier" production. It was a very obviously a WWE show and that hurt it because when it looks like WWE, it will be compared to WWE and will finish a distant third behind their other programs.

 

*No character development whatsoever. The only guys that got a push on the show were established WWE wrestlers. Sabu? He lucked into the win in the battle royal. Edge and John Cena got pushed harder than anyone on the ECW roster. Of the guys in ECW that did get a push, the two that did were WWE talents. Now don't get me wrong. I realize that they don't have a lot to work with on the ECW roster since many of the guys were jobbers on WWE shows, but the point of creating a new brand it to build guys up. That sure didn't happen last night.

 

*Raw was clearly more important than anything else. I understand that this is a fledgling brand and that WWE wants to cross-promote Raw with ECW to get it an audience. But last night, the focus was so strong on what was going on with Vengeance and Monday's show that last night, when it wasn't mind numbingly bad, just came across as secondary filler from a bunch of wannabes. They are going to invade Raw? RVD and Paul Heyman were left for dead by the Raw guys. Big Show, a recent Raw start, threw out everyone in the Battle Royal, including Sabu who luckily didn't hit the floor. Kurt Angle destroyed another former ECW champion. Yeah, that makes the rest of the roster look real tough to me (and believe me, I understand that many of the guys on the roster have jobber written all over them which is why it's important NOT to portray them as such). I am sure the Raw roster is shaking in their boots. Hell, even Sabu's win meant that he wrestles John Cena, on a Raw PPV. Wouldn't Sabu rather get a shot at the ECW Title? I mean really?

 

*It was taped in the wrong buildings. They can't keep taping in Smackdown buildings. It makes for an apathetic crowd, one that isn't there to see ECW. The crowd was always a huge part of why ECW worked. Without it, the brand loses a lot of what makes it special.

 

*Most importantly, it just wasn't "extreme". It's obvious to me that Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn have no idea what an alternative product is. I understand that because they have their way of booking and presenting wrestling, and that's what we get four hours of every week on USA and UPN. The only way I can see this project even having a chance to succeed as alternative is if they step away from it and oversee it from afar. Put control in the hands of the people who understand the concept and give them a chance, with whatever restrictions they need to have placed on them, to run the product. If not, we will have more nights like last night. Vince's vision of ECW is what we saw last night. It's the same as his vision of Raw and Smackdown. If they want to provide a truly different product, they need to step away from it (which for the record I don't see happening). We don't need another Raw Vince. We need something different (and I mean different in a good way).

 

That, in a nutshell, encapsulates the embarrassment that was ECW on Sci Fi last night. I would love to sit here and tell you that I think WWE will take these very legitimate concerns and criticisms to heart and implement change to fix the mess that was that show last night but I won't. Why? Because they made me a sucker once. They ain't gonna do it again.

 

ECW ON SCIFI: LOOKING AT THE WORST HOUR OF WRESTLING TV IN YEARS

by Mike Johnson @ 11:00:00 AM on 6/14/2006

 

What can one say about the travesty that was the first edition of ECW on Sci Fi? It's unfair to even compare this new version of ECW to the original company, so I will refrain from doing that. That said, after the last two years of ECW One Night Stand PPVs, everyone who tuned in last night was hoping for a Led Zeppelin reunion and instead found William Hung on stage. Instead of Eminem, Vanilla Ice was standing there, smiling on stage, doing his Ninja Turtles rap.

 

Although in hindsight, it was probably impossible to expect anything but what fans received, WWE is absolutely lunatic in forgetting that the entire idea of an alternative brand is to have it be something alternative to Raw and Smackdown. With the exception of some cheesy characters that served to do nothing but make Science Fiction and wrestling fans both roll their eyes, there was nothing alternative about this new ECW.

 

In WWE's eyes, Extreme Championship Wrestling is a brand that failed miserably, therefore the only way it's going to work is to have the WWE spin on it, from a marketing, creative, and production standpoint. Last night only served to prove that this new ECW will be exactly what the original company rebelled against.

 

From a production standpoint, it was a third hour of Monday Night Raw. We had all the elements: outside cutaways of the Arena, DX reunion promos, an in-ring talking segment opening the show, backstage vignettes, a replay of what happened 30 minutes ago, a pointless Diva segment, and (since this was "Extreme"), a bunch of guys hitting each other in the head for a hardcore match. It would have been compelling television, if ECW fans hadn't already seen it in 1995 and WWE fans hadn't already seen it during the Attitude era. WWE had the chance to do something outside the box, but beyond having wrestlers walk through the crowd and setting up another pair of hard cameras in the Arena, they failed to do anything unique.

 

From a storyline standpoint, we had the same plot holes and backwards logic that we usually get on Raw and Smackdown. Why would a bunch of wrestlers on the same "team" want to beat the piss out of each other in a Battle Royal? How in the world does Paul Heyman have the power to book John Cena's match on a WWE PPV? How in the world does John Cena lay out three ECW stars, tell the world he's coming to ECW, and then proceeds to get away with whatever he wants? Edge comes to ECW after talking tons of crap about it and trying, for two years in a row, to stand against it, then "tricks" Van Dam by spearing him?

 

From a storyline standpoint, ECW looked like the old WWF Job Squad. Three of their stars got their asses handed to them on Raw and they knew John Cena and Edge were both coming. Throwing some campy characters into a Raw-esque show does not make ECW a unique brand. Throwing 11 names into a Battle Royal does nothing to get over any of the talents, none of whom should be blamed for that hour of TV.

 

All this episode of ECW did was serve to anger fans who paid money to see what they want - a wrestling show featuring the old ECW work ethic with some old and new faces. Instead, they got Raw mixed with Mystery Science Theatre 3000 material.

 

This is the new breed unleashed? This is launching a brand? It looked to me like the only things that were promoted were John Cena, Edge, Raw, and Vengeance. ECW fans who had their hopes up deserved better then a one hour episode of WCW Thunder with Zombies.

 

Several weeks ago, I wrote, "The problem is that, much like every other brand WWE will be running, ECW will be held under the scrutiny of Vince McMahon and his creative team and this will be his vision of what he thinks ECW should be. It will have the same haphazard builds and illogical plotline holes that Raw and Smackdown do, because it’s all coming from the same source. ECW is going to be everything that the original ECW revolted against, unless things change now. It’s not too late for WWE to realize they’re going about this the wrong way. All it will take is one person, Vince McMahon, to admit that just because his way has made him a ton of money, doesn’t mean another way can’t make him that money as well. It's going to fall on McMahon as to whether he lets the golden goose lay him the eggs, or whether he has it rubbed out, gangland execution style. He's already going down the path to the latter."

 

It looks like McMahon has not only positioned the goose in front of the firing squad, but he's jumping up and down, stomping on the bloody, beaten body to ensure it goes into oblivion in the most painful way possible for those who choose to witness the murder. I wrote last week that the new vision of ECW was going to be "Raw with Vampires." I have never been more disgusted in my life to have been correct. Congratulations WWE, on the worst hour of professional wrestling produced since the end of WCW.

[AmazingRen 0]

WWE News: Ratings in for ECW debut on Sci Fi, well above TNA, but below Wednesday special

By Wade Keller, Torch editor

Jun 14, 2006, 16:25

 

-The first episode of ECW on Sci Fi dre a 2.7 rating with a 2.6 in the male 18-49 demo and a 3.1 in the 18-34 demo with an average audience of 3.4 million.

[dubq 0]

Various info about last night, stolen from Rajahwwf.com who stole it from PWInsider:

 

Last night, the Zombie that was featured on ECW was played by Tim Arson on Northeastern Independent Wrestling. He has recieved several tryouts with WWE in the past.

 

The Vampire you saw outside the building was played by former Mordecai, Kevin Fertig.

 

The next person you will see pop up on ECW will be a tarot card reader who will be played by Shelly Martinez.

 

I believe all of these characters are apart of the Sci-Fi "feel" so that ECW fits in with the station.

 

Last night’s debut edition of ECW TV on the Sci Fi Network was written by Paul Heyman, but tweaked by WWE creative. If you thought that Heyman would have complete creative control of the brand, think again. Last night’s show was a Vince McMahon production and Heyman wrote the show to his expectations and visions.

 

People backstage are saying that Paul Heyman knew last night that the show was a wreck. Everyone within the ECW locker room felt the same way, everyone knew what a disappointment that the show was and considered it a complete failure.

 

The reason they aired the Tazz vs. Jerry “The King” Lawler match from One Night Stand in its entirety is because they actually ran short and had to put it in to fill time. Cues were also missed during the battle royal, forcing the production team to fix mistakes they had before the taping aired tape delay.

 

WWE brought Steven DeAngelis in to do the ring announcing, however, when he arrived at the show they sent him home. As you saw last night, WWE chose to go with Justin Roberts instead. Although judging from last night’s show, DeAngelis was probably glad to not be a part of the garbage they tried to pass off as ECW.

 

The original plan last night was to have Sandman come out and cane an alien, but Sci-Fi was fearful that this may turn away their (sci-fi) fanbase by having Sandman beat up on an alien, so a zombie was inserted instead.

 

Following up on that, it appears that there will be many more supernatural characters appearing on ECW in the following weeks.

 

In addition, Paul Heyman scripted last night's ECW show and fought with Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn on many aspects of the show, but in the end Vince and Kevin won out and what we saw last night is what we got.

 

EDIT: DH beat me to it: http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...237150&st=120

[Angle-plex 0]

The two threads should definetly be combined.