OAO Vengeance 2006 Thread

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Hopefully Sabu wasn't hurt when he missed the table...that looked nasty.

[RepoMan 0]

The PPV was just kinda there as a whole. I wouldn't pay to see it in hindsight, nothing activly horible sans ECW jobbing to team Heat.

[evilhomer 0]

Did it seem that Sabu landed really awkwardly on that table to anyone else? His lower back just sheared the end of the table off and smacked into the floor.

No doubt that it hurt like a motherfucker. The table was positioned perpendicular to how it should have been so most of the impact was on the leg where there's no give and the remaining energy went into the edge breaking and his awkward landing. You could tell he was in legit pain, but I don't think he was seriously hurt because he did stay in the stf for a few seconds before tapping out.

 

 

And I concur with the opinion of Cena using the goddamn STFU. What, we're supposed to think you're fucking Benoit because you can score a tap out. No dumbass, the idea is to make it a primary or secondary finisher, not a second finisher following the primary. Learn to wrestle, put in a submission during the match, not after it's already been finished by hitting a pinning move.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"you mean a lot of internet fans have an irrational hatred of Orton? Never!"

 

Hey 12 posts, keep it down.

 

Fans hate Orton because he is a plodding, boring worker, filled with restholds, a minimal moveset, a shitty finisher, a stupid father, the need to call women "cunts" repeatedly, and for ending Benoit's title reign and then having his own flop.

 

Orton has shown absolutely ZERO consistency as a main eventer, be it as a heel or a face. He's like a junior high kid that desperately is trying to hang out with the senior from high school (Triple H), who finds him amusing. Orton is kind of Screech to H's Zack Morris.

 

Irrational, I think not.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Did you just say "hey 12 posts, keep it down?" The banning makes sense now.

[iggymcfly 0]

Orton's 100 times more entertaining that Cena. At least you can believe in his character. Cena's is just stupid. And Orton can bust out a good match on occasion too, (see Foley, Benoit, and Taker). I can't remember the last time I watched Cena wrestle and thought "wow, that was a really good match". Of course if Orton had held the title for 11 of the last 12 months, and was about 99% to beat RVD tonight, I suppose I might start to resent him too.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

"you mean a lot of internet fans have an irrational hatred of Orton? Never!"

 

Hey 12 posts, keep it down.

 

Fans hate Orton because he is a plodding, boring worker, filled with restholds, a minimal moveset, a shitty finisher, a stupid father, the need to call women "cunts" repeatedly, and for ending Benoit's title reign and then having his own flop.

 

Orton has shown absolutely ZERO consistency as a main eventer, be it as a heel or a face. He's like a junior high kid that desperately is trying to hang out with the senior from high school (Triple H), who finds him amusing. Orton is kind of Screech to H's Zack Morris.

 

Irrational, I think not.

 

In regards to his wrestling ability:I think he's a good wrestler, and a lot of of other people do too. By WWE standards he's very good. He's consistently had good or great matches with Benoit, Taker, Foley and Angle. And considering Foley and Taker are past their primes, you can't argue he was being carried.

 

So he ended Benoit's reign? Someone had to. And you could argue the title flop wasn't his whole fault.

 

 

As for his behaviour: He has sought therapy, which indicates to me he had an actual problem rather than just being an asshole for the sake of it. Also, if we're talking about bad behaviour towards women, where's everyone's anger and rage at Stone cold for beating up his wife? Or do people's contempt only stretch towards wrestlers that aren't immensly popular?

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"where's everyone's anger and rage at Stone cold for beating up his wife?"

 

It was there. You know. FOUR YEARS AGO. No one condoned it and many were quite pissed. But Austin hasn't been shoved down our throats regularly, over-hyped, and put over much better wrestlers every show, either.

______

 

Taker carried Orton at Mania. SummerSlam was ok, I just saw it, and besides the TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, NONSENSICAL ending, it was good.

 

He worked one singles match with Foley. It was a garbage match with some good spots. Anyone in Orton's shape with that build-up could've done it, IMO.

 

Angle carried Orton to an OK match at ONS. Angle pretty much decimated him before that in some OK matches. Angle was the focus and really dominated the Mania match. Didn't see Vengeance.

______

 

"Orton's 100 times more entertaining that Cena."

 

Cena's promos may suck, but they have a POINT and he doesn't trip over his words and mention his "destiny" (despite jobbing for MONTHS), like Orton does.

 

His matches have been better in 2006.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

"where's everyone's anger and rage at Stone cold for beating up his wife?"

 

It was there. You know. FOUR YEARS AGO. No one condoned it and many were quite pissed. But Austin hasn't been shoved down our throats regularly, over-hyped, and put over much better wrestlers every show, either.

 

 

I have a feeling in four years time, Orton will still be hearing gym bag/poop jokes, though.

Fact is Orton gets called a mysoginistic pig by everyone and their aunt but Stone cold is greeted as a hero whenever he turns up on Raw or ppv. And even in summer 2002 I don't remember as many people hating on Austin in fact most were still eager for him to return to WWE. People can be such hypocrites sometimes.

Just saying, If your going to judge one wrestler on his personal life, judge them all.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Austin is a face and gets pops from kids and marks who don't understand what he did in his personal life.

 

If Orton was as over as a face as Austin was BEFORE the incidents, he'd get the same response from the young marks and those who don't care.

 

Personally, I don't want to see Orton *or* post-2001 Austin in a ring.

[jester 0]

Fact is Orton gets called a mysoginistic pig by everyone and their aunt but Stone cold is greeted as a hero whenever he turns up on Raw or ppv.

 

Austin got a significant amount of hate on this board at the time. It wasn't universal, but there were plenty of people that thought he was a scumbag, and continue to do so.

 

Me, I don't know the specifics of either Orton or Austin's issues with women. What's fact, what's rumour... Needless to say the buzz isn't positive.

 

What I do know is what I see on my screen. With Austin, I see that they should just tape one appearance and play it over and over again. There wouldn't be any difference. I call him Stale Old Steve Austin.

 

With Orton, the most aggravating thing is that WWE can't seem to figure out if they're pushing him or not. One week he's HHH Protected, the next week he's Barry Horowitz. And restholds are when you cut away to commercial, not when you "tell a story in the ring."

 

In short, fuck them both for being deadweight in the ring. If they're both misogynist dickheads, fuck them for that too.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

"you mean a lot of internet fans have an irrational hatred of Orton? Never!"

 

Hey 12 posts, keep it down.

 

Fans hate Orton because he is a plodding, boring worker, filled with restholds, a minimal moveset, a shitty finisher, a stupid father, the need to call women "cunts" repeatedly, and for ending Benoit's title reign and then having his own flop.

 

Orton has shown absolutely ZERO consistency as a main eventer, be it as a heel or a face. He's like a junior high kid that desperately is trying to hang out with the senior from high school (Triple H), who finds him amusing. Orton is kind of Screech to H's Zack Morris.

 

Irrational, I think not.

 

In regards to his wrestling ability:I think he's a good wrestler, and a lot of of other people do too. By WWE standards he's very good. He's consistently had good or great matches with Benoit, Taker, Foley and Angle. And considering Foley and Taker are past their primes, you can't argue he was being carried.

 

So he ended Benoit's reign? Someone had to. And you could argue the title flop wasn't his whole fault.

 

 

His match with Foley was ALL Foley. Benoit carried him, and I didn't find their matches particulary great. I haven't seen his matches with Angle and Taker, but it's not like those two haven't carried slugs before, even past their primes. Orton has less heat than any top guy on the roster, his promos are terrible and he has very little charisma. His matches are dull and boring more often than not, and when he isn't slapping on a chinlock for 5 minutes, his offense looks sloppy and weak. He has NOTHING that warrants a main event push. No charisma, little wrestling talent and even less heat.

[cabbageboy 0]

One other thing to note about Orton: The guy can't even hit a proper diamond cutter. It's his finisher and he can't even do it.

 

The Foley match with Orton was pure Foley chaos, and frankly I think he and Edge topped that match this year at WM. Edge actually took the tacks like a man in that match, didn't just run to the back to get them scraped off for the most part.

 

Orton was horribly, horribly exposed as a worker on SD. See, Raw has a more car crash atmosphere so he could do shorter matches, get in his basic spots, and hit the RKO. SD is a more wrestling based show and he was thrown out there for 20 min. type matches...and he SUCKS at that. I was bewildered that all those SD matches with Benoit were being praised on here, since it was literally 80% Orton doing headlocks and rest holds, and the only bright spots was whatever decent stuff Benoit did.

 

Hell, they'd be better off pushing someone like Johnny Nitro instead of Orton at this point.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

It's ironic that Orton talks so much shit on females.

 

Because I liken him to a sloppy women's wrestler (generic mic skills, sloppy and slow execution) trapped in a boy's body.

[iggymcfly 0]

Orton has charisma, mic skills, and an interesting character which is more than you can say for 90% of the roster. His wrestling skills are below average for a main eventer, but still passable. He relies a little bit too much on restholds, but when he gets going his execution is actually very crisp, and he does some clever spots now and then. His selling is also very good when he puts some effort into it.

 

I'd compare him to Batista. Batista is actually a little worse in the ring, as shown in that awful HIAC match he had with HHH last year that was literally about 90% stalling. And not the forgivable "resthold" stalling either, but the business exposing "stand around while I try to figure out what to do next" kind of stalling. Batista however is even a little bit more charismatic that Orton, and has better mic skills as well, so he's even more over.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Batista was over big-time with fans even when pushed as a heel. Because he has natural charisma. Comparing Orton's tired, shitty, attempts at promos to what Batista can do with a simple look, not to mention his angry faces when talking, his sensical promos, or stylish demeanor, makes you look silly.

 

Do tell me, what exact Orton's "character" do you find interesting?

 

The fact that despite being 220 lbs soaking wet, he thinks he's destined to defeat all the legends?

 

The fact that he says the same promo over and over again for every feud?

 

The fact that he stumbles over most of his live promos?

 

He has a dropkick, a 3.0, a neckbreaker, and a one-armed sloppy Diamond Cutter. He really doesn't look like a pro wrestler, and because of this he needs to bring something interesting to the table to garner fan heat. He does not do this.

 

However, I do have several favorite Orton moments. Please READ them before replying.

 

1) Orton comes to Raw as a green rookie. Pins Lance Storm and Christian, two guys who went over HULK HOGAN on PPV just months earlier, in back to back matches in like 5 minutes. Fucks up his finisher in his debut.

 

2) Proceeds to get injured that week.

 

3) Orton comes to Raw as a heel aligned with Triple H in the new super group Evolution.

 

4) Proceeds to get injured in 2 weeks.

 

5) Despite having absolutely no credibility whatsoever and no big or memorable matches under his belt, MAKES HIS PAY-PER-VIEW DEBUT IN THE MAIN EVENT OF SUMMERSLAM FOR THE WORLD TITLE.

 

Shall I continue with why he is hated? Read #5 again. Ok.

 

6) Looks like shit and is carried by Shawn Michaels to an OK PPV match. And *goes over*.

 

7) During the build for the Steve Austin Vs. Eric Bischoff 5-on-5 team Survivor Series match, we have the following people involved:

 

Jericho & Christian - Austin-haters from the beginning.

RVD - defending Austin, hates Y2J and Christian

Dudley Boyz - hate Bischoff, like Austin's "no BS" style

Mark Henry - siding with Bischoff, openly hates Austin

Scott Steiner - attacked by Austin

Booker T - hates Christian, no fan of Bischoff

Shawn Michaels - former Austin partner and almost retired against Steve, history brought up to bring him as a leader, Austin practically begs him

 

And who do we get to fill out the match?

 

A guy who does pretty much JACK SHIT in the bout, who has NOTHING TO DO with Austin or Bischoff, and winds up being the SOLE SURVIVOR of the whole thing...

 

Randy Orton. Jesus Christ himself wasn't booked stronger on Easter.

 

But let's continue...

 

Then Orton goes over RVD for the IC Title. Whatever, always thought the title made more sense on heels anyway. Whole PPV sucked, not gonna argue.

_________

 

Then we get Orton made to look unstoppable against the likes of RVD, Booker T, and Chris Jericho in Raw matches.

 

The crowd was BEGGING them to take the title off Orton. Because Randy was a great heel who generated negativity and made his opponents look good? No. Because Orton's promos were repetitve, his matches were the same, he blew moves, and people were sick of having him ran down their throats.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

I mean, that's like 15 months.

 

How about "LET ME REPEAT THE FINISH SPOT" in one of the more blatant business-revealing spots ever with Jericho when he blew the RKO on Raw?

 

Shall we continue with "Orton's feud with Foley delivers no emotional payoff for the fans" and only serves to make Randy look good by having Foley carry him in SPOTFEST HARDCORE MATCH that doesn't require pure wrestling ability? Why would that be? BECAUSE HE LACKS IT.

 

Now now, don't forget. "Tonight on Raw, it'll be Chris Benoit and Edge against La Resistance...for the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE!"

 

How about "the fans won't get behind a heel Orton title chase"...so we'll hotshot the chase into one episode of Raw and have Orton win a fucking battle royal over Jericho, whose match with Benoit at SummerSlam would have been 10x better and probably drawn more buys.

 

I hear Triple H pushed for the super face turn for Orton that failed. So I won't blame Orton.

 

But in 3 months, god damn did Orton look horrible. Shitty Kane cage match that JR plugged as "BAH GAWD ORTON HAS OUTSMARTED EVERYONE!" Slow, shitty offense against the then-equally slow Triple H at Unforgiven. An OK outing, dominated by the better face workers at SSeries. A stupid "concussion gimmick" storyline throughout '05's early outings.

 

The inclusion of Bob Orton was almost too much. It felt Russo-riffic and ruined what had been a good buildup (and match) with Taker.

 

I could make a three-disc DVD of Orton's shitty work. And it's been like 5 years. Actually, it's been about 2 1/2 considering his time on the disabled list.

[Guest Hotbutter Spoontoaster]

Man, I love the reaction Orton gets from some smarks. I hope he shits all over that British girl's bag in this year's Diva Search.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

I'm not a mark by any means, first of all. I just like explaining how Orton's work and push is bad for business.

[Guest Hotbutter Spoontoaster]

A lot of things WWE does is bad for business. And I wasn't just talking about you, I was talking about smarks in general reactions to Orton.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

I just think they should get a clue, already. It's been years.

[iggymcfly 0]

I can't compete volume-wise with someone who has (possibly a record?) 95 posts today. I'll just say that I enjoyed the legend-killer gimmick, I like Orton's cocky intelligent persona, and despite occasionally stumbling over his words, I think he cuts a very good heel promo.

 

Also, if you're talking about someone being overpushed, Orton's not even in the same stratosphere as Cena. Orton's pushed as a strong yet beatable heel. Cena's pushed as Jesus Christ himself who can never ever ever ever come close to losing clean. He also made Sabu tap in 7:00 to a terrible looking STF and but for a two week run where Edge beat him after he'd already won an Elimination Chamber match, he would have held the World Title for over a year.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Orton has charisma, mic skills, and an interesting character which is more than you can say for 90% of the roster.

 

His character isn't interesting enough to garner anything more than a midcard reaction.

[iggymcfly 0]

EDIT: JerichoMark edited his post while I was writing mine. For the record, he initially stated that Orton had less charisma than 90% of the roster although I can see why he thought better of it.

 

 

OK, let's break down the Raw roster for the sake of brevity:

 

More charisma than Orton: Edge, Flair, Michaels, Trish

 

About the same charisma as Orton: Triple H

 

Less charisma than Orton: AAE, Beth Phoenix, Candice, Carlito, Charlie Haas, Chris Masters, Danny Basham, Eugene, Gene Snitsky, John Cena, Johnny, Johnny Nitro, Johnny Parisi, Kane, Kenny, Lance Cade, Lillian Garcia, Lita, Matt Striker, Melina, Mickie James, Mikey, Mitch, Nicky, Renee Dupree, Rob Conway, Shelton Benjamin, Torrie Wilson, Trevor Murdoch, Umaga, Val Venis, Victoria, Viscera

 

OK, so the way I count it, 33 wrestlers have less charisma than Orton and 5 have as much or more. That means that Orton has more charisma than 87% of the roster which rounds up to 90%. Now defend your ridiculous statement, I'd love for you to show me even 10 wrestlers on that list that have more charisma than Orton. I could see an argument for Cena or Mickie James but that's about it. I'm sure you'll bring up Carlito, but his whole gimmick's terribly midcard, and I can't take him seriously like I can with Orton.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

More semantics from you.

 

Are you really going to use people like Rene Dupree, Johnny Parisis, and LILLIAN GARCIA as statistics for people Orton is more charismatic than? The issue is that Orton has not proven to be a capable worker or talker to justify his role: which is high upper card to main event wrestler.

__________________

 

Edge, Flair, Michaels, Triple H, Cena, AAE, and Carlito are all more naturally charismatic than Orton.

 

They're all main eventers, with the exception of AAE and Carlito.

 

The only upper carder or main eventer with worse charisma than Orton: Kane.

 

And I'm not including the Spirit Squad, who seem to be good talkers but have a lot of lines fed to them for their "cheerleaders in sync" routines.

[iggymcfly 0]

Carlito gets a couple cute lines fed to him a night, and he makes some good facial expressions, but he has a hard time holding together a real interview. He's a fun midcard character, but his character is too simple to be a main eventer.

 

AAE yells and repeats one stupid catchprase. He's not even close to being in Orton's league.

 

Cena overdoes all of his facial expressions, and has this incredibly annoying habit of trying to tell a story about a basic stupid storyline instead of talking like a normal human. Let me give you an example:

 

"At ONS, I'm going to have to go into the ECW arena and face all the hostile crowd and RVD at the same time. They're not going to like me. They're probably going to boo me. But I'm not going to be scared to wrestle there. Blah blah blah." or "HHH, I know you think I'm a fluke. A transitional champion. You're probably a better wrestler than me too. But I'm not going to be scared to wrestle you. Blah blah blah."

 

When he actually stays intense, and is trash-talking his opponents, his mic skills are actually pretty good. But he always does this transition where he puts on his smarmy voice, gives the camera a stupid, shit-eating grin, and starts going off on these long tangents, going through every silly detail of the storyline in a way that JR would be embarrassed to do. When the ECW guys came out and he beat up 4 of them the other day, he was doing a pretty good promo, and then he did "the transition" immediately after saying "I kinda liked it". I can't explain it exactly, but when he does it, it's absolutely terrible and makes me hate him with a passion.

 

Oh yeah, this is supposed to be about Orton. Anyway, he's definitely better than Cena and Carlito on the stick. I don't doubt that Cena has more natural potential than Orton, but with no guidance, he gives at least one line every interview that makes me embarrassed to be watching wrestling. Tonight it was the "fart juice". Orton gets over feuds without saying anything that's so dumb I want to slap him in the face so he gets the nod.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

EDIT: JerichoMark edited his post while I was writing mine. For the record, he initially stated that Orton had less charisma than 90% of the roster although I can see why he thought better of it.

 

 

OK, let's break down the Raw roster for the sake of brevity:

 

More charisma than Orton: Edge, Flair, Michaels, Trish

 

About the same charisma as Orton: Triple H

 

Less charisma than Orton: AAE, Beth Phoenix, Candice, Carlito, Charlie Haas, Chris Masters, Danny Basham, Eugene, Gene Snitsky, John Cena, Johnny, Johnny Nitro, Johnny Parisi, Kane, Kenny, Lance Cade, Lillian Garcia, Lita, Matt Striker, Melina, Mickie James, Mikey, Mitch, Nicky, Renee Dupree, Rob Conway, Shelton Benjamin, Torrie Wilson, Trevor Murdoch, Umaga, Val Venis, Victoria, Viscera

 

OK, so the way I count it, 33 wrestlers have less charisma than Orton and 5 have as much or more. That means that Orton has more charisma than 87% of the roster which rounds up to 90%. Now defend your ridiculous statement, I'd love for you to show me even 10 wrestlers on that list that have more charisma than Orton. I could see an argument for Cena or Mickie James but that's about it. I'm sure you'll bring up Carlito, but his whole gimmick's terribly midcard, and I can't take him seriously like I can with Orton.

 

Of your list: Parisi(he was charismatic as Johnny Swinger, but isn't given anything to work with), Dupree, Johnny Nitro, some of the spirit squad, Kane, Eugene, Melina, Mickie James, Gene Snitsky, AAE, Val Venis, Lita, Viscera and ESPECIALLY Cena are all more charismatic than Orton. Oh, and Carlito too. And Triple H. All of these wrestlers have more enthusiasm and electricity in their promos.

 

I edited it out because I didn't feel like having to explain why every wrestler was more charismatic than Orton, since it would of taken a while.

[benn 0]

The fact that despite being 220 lbs soaking wet, he thinks he's destined to defeat all the legends?

These types of arguments are stupid. Sure maybe he'd have trouble against someone like the fucking Big Show but Randy Orton is a big guy and I don't think there's any kind of problem with his credibility in that area, particularly when you're talking about him fighting retired guys.

[jester 0]

The fact that despite being 220 lbs soaking wet, he thinks he's destined to defeat all the legends?

These types of arguments are stupid. Sure maybe he'd have trouble against someone like the fucking Big Show but Randy Orton is a big guy and I don't think there's any kind of problem with his credibility in that area, particularly when you're talking about him fighting retired guys.

 

This is why I never bought into the Legend Killer gimmick. He didn't kill any legends. Most of his wins were tainted, or they were against people that HHH had already slapped around, like Foley.

 

Maybe I should have put this in the State Your Unpopular Opinions thread, but I believe they not only should have given Orton the win over Undertaker at WM, it should have been clean. Orton might have a screen persona today.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Some Vengeance stuff from the latest Figure Four Weekly:

 

Bryan said he was told the finish to Angle vs. Orton will make sense eventually.

 

Said the finish to Sabu vs. Cena was changed the day of the show due to "heavy lobbying" from Michael Hayes, who does not like ECW or Heyman and doesn't want to see them getting over on Raw.

 

Angle vs. Orton: **1/2 "I would not have booked this finish. ECW is too new and weak to beat its top star, even like this. I guess making a top contender for HHH is more important than keeping the ECW brand strong"

Umaga vs. Eugene: DUD

Flair vs. Foley: DUD Bryan called this a huge disappointment and said that it had high expectations and that, even if turns into something great, people will remember this as being disappointing.

IC Three-Way:**3/4

RVD vs. Edge: ***1/2

Fake Kane vs. Real Kane: *1/2

Cena vs. Sabu: ***1/2

DX vs. Spirit Squad: ***1/4

 

Post-PPV/Raw notes:

 

The Fake Kane vs. Real Kane was originally going to last through to Wrestlemania.

 

Everyone was drug tested Sunday.