The great Money matches that Could have been...

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I'd like to know what makes you think Lawler is the best face of that era CS.

 

Also, I was unaware that Hogan and Flair faced off at all those house shows. To me it kind of ruins the main event of Wrestlemania, the biggest match of the era or whatever with the "Champ vs. Champ" storyline, knowing that the two faced each other so many times already. Did they do this with Shawn vs. Bret or Hogan vs. Andre? To my knowledge they didn't face each other on house show circuits often did they?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Did they do this with Shawn vs. Bret...? To my knowledge they didn't face each other on house show circuits often did they?

They did wrestle each other a couple of times leading up to WM XII at house shows, but that was down to a few no-shows and the company wanted fans to feel like the promotion was going out of there way to make things up to them by giving them the Wrestlemania main event.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I'd like to know what makes you think Lawler is the best face of that era CS."

 

The elusive combination of sympathy and vengenace. I don't think any face combined the two as better as Lawler did.

 

Steamboat/Morton were great at the sympathy part but they couldn't work a payback spot to save their life. Both have their moments but in general couldn't get that aspect down. You still have stuff like Morton apparently oblivious to the fact that Savage tried to kill him with a Piledriver in their previous match or Steamboat paying Savage back for injuring his throat with armdrags and roll ups like it's any other match. Not exactly the most engaging characters in that regard. Hogan was great at working payback spots and blood fueds but vunerability was never his strength for obvious reasons.

 

Lawler could do both exceptionally well, plus he has the everyman appeal that eludes all of them. Not to mention, he was a great worker who performed in some of the best matches of the 80s against Funk, Bockwinkle, and Dundee. And the best non match being the strapmatch against Idol.

 

And after a rewatch:

 

Yes the decision is overturned in the Flair/Hogan meeting to set up the awesome rematch.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

What kind of offense did Lawler use to get his point acrosS?

 

Also, where would you put Bret Hart? To me while he wasn't in that era, his work in the 90s makes him a candidate for being a top babyface.

[snuffbox 0]

What kind of offense did Lawler use to get his point acrosS?

 

The deadly Memphisdriver of ultimate doom and peril.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Lawler used a lot of punches from what I've seen. Myself, I don't like his work/mannerisms at all. In fact, I often find myself despising it wether he is face or heel as he always came off as so fake to me. A good amount of people do like his work however.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Also, where would you put Bret Hart? To me while he wasn't in that era, his work in the 90s makes him a candidate for being a top babyface."

 

Sorry not a huge Bret fan. While he was great at putting together matches it seems to me as though he needed his opponent to bring the necessary drama to really elevate it...Henning, Owen, Piper...etc. His matches with lesser workers like Smith were fun but lacked the special x factor if you will. I can't recall his matches with Nash but I still hear good things about them.

 

As far as 90s US babyfaces, I like 92-94 Dustin Rhodes the best.

[cabbageboy 0]

I too find Dustin's early 90s WCW stuff underrated but he's never been the best at anything. It's amusing to hear how Davey Boy is a "lesser worker" and then pimp the hell out of Dustin.

 

Coffin, I actually agree with a lot of what you say. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Hogan, I don't think it can be said that he's a selfish worker in the ring. I have new appreciation for a lot of Hogan stuff from the 80s, since he invariably made his opponents look way better than they were. I mean hell there was a match on a SNME with Hercules I saw recently, and it at least seemed at times like Herc had a shot at winning.

 

I thought another great Hogan match was one with Slaughter from 1991. It was a boot camp match from MSG that I saw on 24/7. It was somewhat like the Slaughter/Patterson match from 1981, but I think Slaughter refined a lot of those spots for the Hogan match.

 

It's amusing that Hogan has this rep for being such an 80s star when in my view some of his strongest work came in 1990-91.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I too find Dustin's early 90s WCW stuff underrated but he's never been the best at anything. "

 

I'm not one to break things down but:

 

Who was a better US heavyweight bumper than Dustin during that timeframe? Vader or HBK....maybe but that's it and were talking heels there.

 

Who had more fire?

 

Who played a better face in peril in all those classic tags?

 

I would also he got the more out of Vader, Arn, and Foley than any other face I can think of from that timeframe. Not even Sting really.

 

Have you seen the Sting/Dustin vs. Vader/Windham tag from 93 is it?

Sting has great singles matches with Vader and Windham and he never worked with either of them as well as Dustin does in this match.

 

I'm a big fan of the firey underdog and outside of Jun Akiyama, I don't think anybody nailed the role as well as Dustin. So you can say he was one of the best at that in the US at the very least.

 

 

" It's amusing to hear how Davey Boy is a "lesser worker" and then pimp the hell out of Dustin."

 

You think Smith is on par with Bret?

 

I haven't seen anything that impressive from Smith to be honest.

 

I have:

 

Smith/Bret 92 and 95

Smith/Vader 93

Some old Bulldog tags.

 

I haven't seen his matches with Owen or HBK from mid 90s run in some time so maybe I'm missing something there.

 

"It's amusing that Hogan has this rep for being such an 80s star when in my view some of his strongest work came in 1990-91."

 

He was very motivated during that timeframe. I really enjoy the Flair/Taker matches.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Dustin was always good for tag-team wrestling, or being a solid midcard worker.

 

That's about it.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Dustin was always good for tag-team wrestling, or being a solid midcard worker.

 

That's about it.

 

This would imply a limitation of talent which I don't see any evidence of. Dustin often held his own and more against WCW's best workers Vader and Windham.

 

Eh.....Arn Anderson was stuck in tags and the midcard for most of his career and the guy was brilliant so, I really don't see that as much of a criticism of their ability.

[Red Baron 0]

When Dustin became Goldust it was kind of hard to put him as a serious contender to the belt.

 

He never had the "it" factor like Sting to become a world champion, but was a very solid worker to at least have a chance to go for the heavy-weight belt.

[cabbageboy 0]

I guess what I was getting to was that yeah I sorta liked Dustin's 1992-94 work but at the end of the day it's....Dustin Rhodes. As a singles wrestler the guy hardly ever scraped above ***, though he was in some really good tag matches with Windham and Co.

 

Comparing Davey Boy and Bret isn't really fair....Bulldog as a singles wrestler was more of a power wrestler with some traces left of his technical skill. As far as his quality matches go, the SS 92 match with Bret is an all time classic in my book. The Dec. 95 IYH match is killer too and worked in a totally different, more brutal style. I also have enjoyed several Bulldog/Shawn matches but they aren't quite on par with the Bret ones. I wish I had Owen/Bulldog Euro title from Raw on tape, but have just seen highlights on the weekend show. From what I saw it was a classic, anyone have it on tape?

[Coffin Surfer 0]

" As a singles wrestler the guy hardly ever scraped above ***, though he was in some really good tag matches with Windham and Co."

 

Like Windham, he was one of the best tag wrestlers during that era. (not just in the US but world wide!) That counts for a hell of alot in my book.

 

The highest I have him is about **** at the 94 Dustin/Vader match. A lack of time and Vader rapidly slowing down is the only thing holding it back from blowing the Sting matches away as Dustin clearly has far more to offer.

 

Dustin/Arn 92 is another short gem that I have in the upper *** range. As is Dustin/Foley.

 

 

"Comparing Davey Boy and Bret isn't really fair....Bulldog as a singles wrestler was more of a power wrestler with some traces left of his technical skill."

 

If I was judging who had the better hammerlock reversal that would probably be a factor.

 

Seriously, I haven't seen anything that would suggest Smith could build a good match like Bret. Vader had to suffocate him with bumps and stooge spots to carry him, and Hart had to drag him through the Summerslam at the expense of it's quality.

 

 

" As far as his quality matches go, the SS 92 match with Bret is an all time classic in my book. "

 

Again, this is the last match I would use to pimp Smith(see the Smith thread which should be a few notches down actually.)

 

 

"The Dec. 95 IYH match is killer too and worked in a totally different, more brutal style."

 

I haven't seen in it a while but I don't recall digging it too much outside of seeing Hart work such an offense heavy match and bleed all over the place. Probably due for a re-watch but I don't recall Smith being too impressive outside of a few cool bumps. I remember bland heel work like "Look, I'm a heel and I'm desperately pulling his hair because that's what stooges do." Not exactly as compelling as Henning or Owen taking short cuts to create the impression their outmatched by Bret. If I'm not mistaken Bret also loans out a bunch of spots to Smith like the Piledriver and his own criss cross sequences from the Summerslam match to carry him through it.

 

" I wish I had Owen/Bulldog Euro title from Raw on tape, but have just seen highlights on the weekend show."

 

I recall liking it at the time, can't recall details though.

 

"When Dustin became Goldust it was kind of hard to put him as a serious contender to the belt."

 

Yeah, I think it's safe to say his best days where behind him. Wasn't also slowed down by injuries before jumping to the WWF>

 

"He never had the "it" factor like Sting to become a world champion, but was a very solid worker to at least have a chance to go for the heavy-weight belt."

 

Well, Sting had been around for a while, was booked well, and to his credit kept up with the times by adding more exciting moves to his offense. I think Dusitn actually had more natural charisma to be honest and I'm a huge Sting fan.

[Jericholic82 0]

Did they do this with Shawn vs. Bret...? To my knowledge they didn't face each other on house show circuits often did they?

They did wrestle each other a couple of times leading up to WM XII at house shows, but that was down to a few no-shows and the company wanted fans to feel like the promotion was going out of there way to make things up to them by giving them the Wrestlemania main event.

they faced for the wwf title at survivor series 92

[Bruce Blank 0]

They did Bret / Shawn more than once just after Shawn turned heel on Marty Janetty as well so the two of them were already very familiar with each other (Hell Rockers/Hartfoundation too)

[Guest wildpegasus]

They did Bret / Shawn more than once just after Shawn turned heel on Marty Janetty as well so the two of them were already very familiar with each other (Hell Rockers/Hartfoundation too)

 

I even remember Bret and Shawn wrestling on one of the "lesser" programs against each other while both were face and part of their respective tag teams. Pretty impressive considering that was an era where faces only fought each other once in a blue moon.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

They did Bret / Shawn more than once just after Shawn turned heel on Marty Janetty as well so the two of them were already very familiar with each other (Hell Rockers/Hartfoundation too)

 

 

I remember these teams having some good matches.

[Guest wildpegasus]

They did Bret / Shawn more than once just after Shawn turned heel on Marty Janetty as well so the two of them were already very familiar with each other (Hell Rockers/Hartfoundation too)

 

 

I remember these teams having some good matches.

 

Yeah, I love the SNME match. They had a great one in MSG? too IIRC.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

I... have no idea baout wrestling dates/ statistics, really.

 

Just about guys I've always been a mark for.

 

 

I used to know alot more then I do now, but I forgot all that shit when I quit watching for a few years 2 different times.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I should point out that when I asked if they faced each other I mean after the Title match at WM 12 was announced.

 

It is obvious that they'd face each other countless times before that.

[Guest Franchise]

I'll throw out a few matches I would've liked to see.

 

Goldberg v. Flair in WCW '99. Flair was WCW's biggest ratings draw and Goldberg was their biggest house show draw. "Da Man v. The Man". I know they wrestled once on Nitro, but it was like 5 minutes and ended in multiple run-ins. They did one or two similar matches on RAW in 2003. Wouldn't have been a 5-star match but easily could've sold PPV buys.

 

Steamboat v. Muta in NWA '89. They may have wrestled on house shows, I don't know. I do know they wrestled each other in Japan, but I haven't seen the matches. Maybe not a big money match, but the workrate would be off the richter scale.

 

Eddie Guerrero v. Shawn Michaels. I remembered hoping for the '03 & '05 Rumbles that these two would be in the ring at the same time just so they could lock up. Didn't happen. Then they were both scheduled to be in the Raw/SmackDown Elimination match at Survivor Series last year and that was enough to make me want to see the show, but sadly it wasn't meant to be. I just imagine what could've been had these two ever stepped in the ring together.

[PLAGIARISM! 0]

Good to see Dustin's career get the attention it deserves.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Steamboat v. Muta in NWA '89. They may have wrestled on house shows, I don't know. I do know they wrestled each other in Japan, but I haven't seen the matches. Maybe not a big money match, but the workrate would be off the richter scale."

 

The only match I've seen them work in New Japan was horrid. They don't work with each other in the way one would expect as they seem content with: my spots, your spots, let's go home. The finishing run is simply Steamboat sluggishly dragging Muta through his by now cliche shoulder block/roll up spots to the digust of a New Japan heavy crowd that had been trained to accept big strikes, submissions, and suplexes as climatic nearfalls. My version is thankfully JIP as from my understanding the match features an infamous five minute leg lock which wouldn't surprise me much as both are known for that sort of thing.

 

89 in the NWA could have been another story but it's hard to say as they seemed to have alwayd had an approach that would most likely bring out the worse in each other. Sad since their athletic potential could create something special.

 

"Good to see Dustin's career get the attention it deserves."

 

Happy to oblige.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Goldberg Vs. Warrior - WCW

[slabinskia 0]

Dustin definately was in some great tag matches from 92-94. I don't know if it shows how good he was or that he was usually in the ring with some great wrestlers. Decide for yourself.

 

On a side note, anyone else like the spring stampede 94 match between dustin and bunkhouse buck ? It was always a guilty pleasure match for me. I found just about everything on that ppv to be pretty good actually.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Dustin definately was in some great tag matches from 92-94. I don't know if it shows how good he was or that he was usually in the ring with some great wrestlers. Decide for yourself. "

 

That would be true if you didn't watch the matches and went by what was on paper. Austin found his way into quite a few well regarded matches from that era too, problem is outside of Wargames 92 he was heavily smothered by the other workers and when he had breathing room his contributions didn't exactly "make the match."

 

It's actually just a question of watching a match and seeing what the wrestler in quesiton is actually contributing and if his contributions are what made the match so enjoyable.

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

Had Eric B. not took over (which lead to Hogan) Dustin would've been WCW champ in 94 or 95 IMO