Exposing the Biz

[Just John]

People throw around the phrase "exposing the business" a lot. Even though you could argue about how much you can expose something everyone knows isn't real, there are definitely some things that are so ridiculous, it makes suspending disbelief impossible.

 

What things do you think expose wrestling the most?

[World's Worst Man]

No-selling of high end offense. Selling offense that looks like crap. An utter lack of setup to certain spots (I'm looking at you, Scott Steiner and Kurt Angle). Any sort of spot or story that alludes to wrestling being scripted/not real (I'm looking at you, finish to Danielson vs. Strong). Pretty much anytime Hulk Hogan was a face, post-1984.

[Hawk 34]

Outright saying "this is a scripted show". (pretty much the format of every Russofied WCW espisode).

 

Doesn't get more business exposing then that.

[Guest DRH 502]

Ehhh the only thing that has made the AmDrag/Strong matches seem "not scripted" is the fact the awful commentators feel the need point every minut detail out...I hate ROH commentators as bad as CZW commentators. I think finishes like the Danielson/Strong omoplata are great and I welcome more of this to pro wrestling. What exposes the buisness most nowawadays is the punching, or lack thereof. When I watch some old school Lawler or Bill Dundee, I weep at how fucking great those punches looked. If you are gonna do a style that requires alot of punch/kick(WWE) then at least learn how to fucking punch/kick....

[Lil' Bitch]

What things do you think expose wrestling the most?

 

Hogan Vs. Michaels, SummerSlam 2005

[Guest The Beta Male]

What things do you think expose wrestling the most?

 

Hogan Vs. Michaels, SummerSlam 2005

 

that was really more "what exposes Hogan most?"

Michaels carried that above and beyond the call of duty.

[Guest wildpegasus]

People's elbow, the Worm, ROH, heels being extra "cartoonish", selling of moves that don't hit at all.

[razazteca]

Hulk Hogan's 1995 WCW run.

[The Amazing Rando]

Don't randomly drop ROH into this, WP. We understand you hate it but that's the kind of shit that deserves you at least EXPLAIN yourself. It's especially touching that you tried to hide it.

 

 

Also, the People's Elbow was usually a follow to the Rock Bottom (or Rock's spinebuster) and was used as (a) an 'insult to injury' type finish and one last way to knock the wind out of someone (just as the victim might have been getting it back after the Spinebuster or Rock Bottom)

 

 

The Worm, however, is horrendous, especially since it follows a bulldog.

[Dobbs 3K]

Ehhh the only thing that has made the AmDrag/Strong matches seem "not scripted" is the fact the awful commentators feel the need point every minut detail out...I hate ROH commentators as bad as CZW commentators. I think finishes like the Danielson/Strong omoplata are great and I welcome more of this to pro wrestling. What exposes the buisness most nowawadays is the punching, or lack thereof. When I watch some old school Lawler or Bill Dundee, I weep at how fucking great those punches looked. If you are gonna do a style that requires alot of punch/kick(WWE) then at least learn how to fucking punch/kick....

 

I haven't seen a lot of Ring of Honor, but the commentary on all the matches I've seen has been incredibly annoying. One guy does an awful Jesse Ventura impression (seems like all indy promotions have that heel announcer trying to do a "tough guy" voice, but it comes off as some pimply college student immitating Ventura), and the other guy creaming his pants about how awesome an opening bout between two guys you've never seen before is, when in actuality it's just two guys doing very basic stuff, or copying stuff they've seen in their puro tape collections.

[World's Worst Man]

Sounds like the Sapolsky/Nulty announce team, which was dreadful. But they haven't really been a problem for about 18 months or so, since Prazak had taken over the announce duties, and he's generally entertaining to listen to and knows about wrestling.

 

And realistically, JR is as bad or worse than the bad indy announcers, so there's always that to consider when talking about announcers ruining matches or what have you.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Don't randomly drop ROH into this, WP. We understand you hate it but that's the kind of shit that deserves you at least EXPLAIN yourself. It's especially touching that you tried to hide it.

 

 

Also, the People's Elbow was usually a follow to the Rock Bottom (or Rock's spinebuster) and was used as (a) an 'insult to injury' type finish and one last way to knock the wind out of someone (just as the victim might have been getting it back after the Spinebuster or Rock Bottom)

 

 

The Worm, however, is horrendous, especially since it follows a bulldog.

 

Please tell me you're kidding about the People's elbow.

 

 

I don't hate ROH. In fact, I really like some of their matches. Kobashi vs Joe was a good bout, Lo-Ki is fun, Noble had a great run and I like Spanky's work.

 

However, the wrestling, the announcing, the marketing which has unfortunately created a lot of ROHbots, the backstage skits that I've seen, some of the interviews and the fans all expose the buisness. Really, it's not a question of what ROH does to expose the buisness. It's actually a question of what in ROH actually doesn't expose the buisness.

[Jericho2000Mark]

Shawn Michaels.

[The Amazing Rando]

I am not kidding about the People's Elbow. At least there is normally a harder hitting move in front of it. The only reason I would say it "exposes the business" is because of the time in between him standing there and throwing the elbow pad to actually hitting it... but you can say the same thing about the end of Booker/HHH.

 

 

I still don't get how you can say they "expose the business". I mean, at it's core, it is pretty much wrestling for the smarter crowd, a crowd that already "knows" the business anyway. If anything, I'm glad that they only play one side of the coin rather than playing both.

 

Wrestling is unique because the fans can see the audience. It's not like watching a sitcom or drama. If you watch SNL, and a cast member screws up a line and starts giggling, does THAT expose their business of being actors? yes. Do they take some shit for it? sometimes. Does it *really* matter...no, because that's a hazard of live TV. It just so happens, in wrestling, the fans will jump on those things with chants like "You Fucked Up", "Boring", and etc.

 

If you want to say the wrestling exposes the business as in it being a place where there are a few more contrived spots than normal, then fine, it happens. It's an attention getter. But we could spend all day talking about all of the moves in wrestling that defy logic (you know, like running the ropes).

 

Low-card independant guys are usually trying to impress people, because wrestling is built on people trying to put the spotlight on themselves. So they do what they can to get the people talking, whether is an awesome technical wrestling feast or a high-spot "flippy-floppy" frenzy.

 

I've never been that annoyed by the announcing. Sometimes they do go a little overboard on the hype, but i've never felt they were exposing anything.

 

 

You just have to remember, as I said earlier, that ROH is a federation whose fundamental fanbase is fairly "in the know" about the business to begin with, and so if there IS anything being exposed, they probably already know what it is.

[haVoc]

What doesn't expose the business?

 

No one ever losing out of nowhere from being knocked out from a punch or kick to the head.

 

Standing there and letting yourself be punched in the face.

 

Not protecting yourself when someone is chopping you repeatably.

 

Same for being kicked and stomped.

 

Your head being bounced off the mat, turnbuckle, steel steps, announcer tables, etc, multiple times.

 

A standard suplex.

 

Most drop kicks.

 

Being thrown into the ropes or turnbuckles.

 

Bouncing off the ropes and running into a spot/move/hold.

 

Laying there in most cases and not moving when someone jumps off the top.

 

When someone gets picked up for a slam or any type of power move, why the Hell wouldn't they be kicking and squirming around to get out of it?

 

Flat back bumps.

 

There are so many things.

[Naked Snake]

Macho Man's flying axehandle exposed the business to me 15 or so years ago. I remember watching him do it an realizing it doesn't hurt because he opens his hands just before impact.

 

And the pee pee dance by heels...ie nWo versus Sting is horrible as well.

[Coffin Surfer]

Fear Havoc is the only person here who seems to have the right idea. Essentially any Pro-Style match with cooperation spots so.....yeah pretty much everything from cartoon stooges like Flair to ass kicking brawler like Stan Hansen could be argued as "BIZ EXPOSING!"

 

If you want realism in staged contests watch Takada or Volk Han. Great shoot style workers.

 

And The Rock uses the People's Elbow as a finisher because it's a signature spot the fans react to more than the rest of his moves! Should he put it on the back burner to a Back Suplex because it looks more "credible" or "hurty?" Yeesh.

[Coffin Surfer]

And while were on the subject of "credible offense:"

 

Kawada is/was without question one of the smartest, greatest workers ever involved in the business. His offense included brutal looking kicks, Backdrop Drivers, and real shoot style submission holds. He wrestled in a fed with guys like Kobashi and Misawa, who invented some of the most painful looking and creative offensive moves of all time. You know what Kawada's finishers were: A glorified Abdominal Stretch and a simple Powerbomb. And why? Because those were the moves that got the biggest reactions and it would make sense to climax his runs with the most over moves.

[World's Worst Man]

Fear Havoc is the only person here who seems to have the right idea. Essentially any Pro-Style match with cooperation spots so.....yeah pretty much everything from cartoon stooges like Flair to ass kicking brawler like Stan Hansen could be argued as "BIZ EXPOSING!"

 

If you want realism in staged contests watch Takada or Volk Han. Great shoot style workers.

 

And The Rock uses the People's Elbow as a finisher because it's a signature spot the fans react to more than the rest of his moves! Should he put it on the back burner to a Back Suplex because it looks more "credible" or "hurty?" Yeesh.

 

Thanks so much for that. But if you had actually read the original post, you would have seen that the point of the thread seems to be to about stuff that exposes the business moreso than the basic, contrived "rules" of wrestling do. So Fear Havoc is pretty much the only person who doesn't have the right idea. Well, until that post anyway.

[Coffin Surfer]

"Thanks so much for that. But if you had actually read the original post, you would have seen that the point of the thread seems to be to about stuff that exposes the business moreso than the basic, contrived "rules" of wrestling do. So Fear Havoc is pretty much the only person who doesn't have the right idea. Well, until that post anyway."

 

Well Rando seems to have the right idea as well.

 

The issue is that most of the posters in this thread don't seem to understand the so called contrived rules of wrestling and are listing them as "Business Exposing." Ex: The People's Elbow, No selling face comebacks: HBK and Hogan being listed, and Macho Man not completely following through with the Axe Handle!? Why don't you read the rest of the thread or your own post?

 

Sorry if you disagree but I feel most anything in the whacky world of pro-style wrestling can be considered "Business Exposing." making such a term a very vague, useless criticism. I don't think people would say "HHH/Stiener from the Rumble" sucked because it reminded them that wrestling is fake. I think people's main problem is that it was a directionless, boring, piece of shit, that failed to deliver any capitivating drama.

[Just John]

Just to clarify some intent, I was looking for things that do go above and beyond typical pro wrestling physics. In wrestling, it's a given that an Irish whip works, no matter how silly the idea is in real life.

 

Things like worked shoot angles and HHH surviving being dropped 40 feet in a car is stuff I'm looking at.

 

To a smaller degree, some individual moves and spots do come across as exceptionally contrived and fake-looking. I'm looking at things like the catapult and 5 guys who are supposed to be fighting convening outside the ring for someone to jump on all of them.

[Hunter's Torn Quad]

Things like worked shoot angles and HHH surviving being dropped 40 feet in a car is stuff I'm looking at.

The Giant falling off of the roof of the Cobo Arena.

[World's Worst Man]

Just to clarify some intent, I was looking for things that do go above and beyond typical pro wrestling physics. In wrestling, it's a given that an Irish whip works, no matter how silly the idea is in real life.

 

Things like worked shoot angles and HHH surviving being dropped 40 feet in a car is stuff I'm looking at.

 

To a smaller degree, some individual moves and spots do come across as exceptionally contrived and fake-looking. I'm looking at things like the catapult and 5 guys who are supposed to be fighting convening outside the ring for someone to jump on all of them.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that many of pro-wrestling's rules aren't "business exposing", but pro-wrestling doesn't really exist without those rules, so it's sort of an irrelevant discussion. Certain things that either break those rules (no-selling) or are so far beyond the realm of those "rules" (spots that take forever to setup or require clearly distinguishable cooperation) are what REALLY exposes the business though.

[Guest The Beta Male]

selling of moves that don't hit at all.

 

this is one of my pet hates.

especially having some in-ring experience. i like to work a bit snug so at least the other guy knows he`s been hit. if you`re clubbing someones back then chances are they`re facing the floor, so if you wind up big time and then pull the blow so you barely touch them, how are they to kow how to sell?

[BigDawgCarl]

Undertaker & Paul Bearer on Regis & Kathie Lee.

[Bruce Blank]

selling of moves that don't hit at all.

 

this is one of my pet hates.

especially having some in-ring experience. i like to work a bit snug so at least the other guy knows he`s been hit. if you`re clubbing someones back then chances are they`re facing the floor, so if you wind up big time and then pull the blow so you barely touch them, how are they to kow how to sell?

In the TNA folder there is a hilarious clip of Scott Steiner ramming Christiaan's head into the canvas, except that Christian leaps forward and hits the canvas without Steiner actually touching him

[Bruce Blank]

Ah and here you go

 

[Timmy8271]

Perfect example is this weekends past AAA show, A babyface named Angel got hit by one of the fans and just went crazy. Anyways towards the end of the match, The Rudo, Electroshock hits him with a Cane and Angle completly no sells it about 4 times. Shock finally punches him in the back of the head. He no sells it and leaves. This is the same guy that's booked in NOAH.

 

And that steiner clip is almost as funny as the one from WWE where he falls off the apron for a double axe handle and misses test by a mile.

[Dobbs 3K]

I would add that a lot of WWE's garbage "hardcore" matches of the last five years or so have been pretty business exposing. It's hard to get into a match or find it believable when the garbage can lids and cookie sheets the guys are hitting each other with look like tin foil.

 

Also, any time a referee gets knocked down and lays unconscious for more than 30 seconds or so.

 

At least most of the chair shots you see on TV nowadays generally look good, and are sold like death.

[Hunter's Torn Quad]

Also, any time a referee gets knocked down and lays unconscious for more than 30 seconds or so.

I'd put Nick Patrick's bump last night in the main event in a similar category. He got grazed in the shoulder by Rey and practically did cartwheels across the ring, dragged himself to the floor and then did a handstands along the ground before falling flat on his face and laying there supposedly unconscious.