Goldberg

[Canadian Brandon 0]

Ok. So my friend and I recently got into a heated argument about the current state of wrestling. One of his arguments was that there will never be another Goldberg or Austin. For the most part I agree. The argument then shifted particularly to Goldberg. I fail to see what the big deal about the man is and he thinks that no one could pull off the gimmick as well as he did. I tend to think that an average generic big man(for my argument I used Jon Heidenreich) would have made just as much money if in the same situation. Unable to come to an agreement we decided to let the smarks give us their opinion. Here are our thoughts:

 

My Thesis: Any big man would have been just as successful as Goldberg given his push and hype.

 

His Thesis: Goldberg brought an intensity and charisma into the ring that made the push work in ways that wouldn't work with any other random big man.

 

 

Thoughts?

[tekcop 0]

I'm willing to defend my stance to the death.

[BUTT 0]

Lots of guys have been given big pushes and haven't gotten over like Goldberg was. You have to take into consideration that it wasn't just the fact that he was winning a lot of matches that got him over. It was a combination of all the things he had going for him: his look, his trademark spots (spear, jackhammer, etc.), his music, his entrance, and other things. The fact is, I'm pretty sure Goldberg developed a lot of the facets of his character himself, particularly since WCW never really paid that much attention to developing characters, and certainly never did so to the extent that WWE does. So, I would say that while Goldberg wasn't an exceptional talent, he can be given a great deal of credit for his own success.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

To me, Goldberg was a cool, exciting, explosive, unique badass from January 1998 until August 1998.

 

Once he got lumped in with the awful nWo vs. nWo crap, started talking, and was outshined on the microphone by guys like Jericho and Nash, it all went to hell.

 

Still, I wanted no part of DDP being a World Champ, so I rooted for him at Havoc 98.

 

But about 10 friends and I watched Starrcade 1998 and marked out HUGE when Nash got the pin on him. He had totally become "uncool" with us.

 

He never really recpatured the magic after Starrcade, but that's just IMO.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

There was already a better version of Goldberg. His name was Brock Lesnar.

[The Mountie 0]

Lesnar was nothing compared to Goldberg.

 

Goldberg had the intangibles.

[GODSON 0]

There was already a better version of Goldberg. His name was Brock Lesnar.

 

???

 

Anyway, Bill Goldberg was the reason why he got over. He came out there,did cool moves and left the ring with no problems or bs. His intensity was off the charts,how can the guy go from being unknown to WCW biggest draw EVER(that's actually a fact) within 10 months,the year after WCW screw up their biggest angle.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I give Goldberg credit. He came in with WCW having no real apparent plan for him, and got over by wrestling a basic power style and looking like a total badass. You have to remember, after his first few weeks he was really over, and hadn't even said a word yet.

 

He did get a lot of help. A lot of guys put him over, but that's what wrestling is about. I think WCW did a good job promoting "the streak" and all of that, to their credit. Goldberg wasn't a great worker, but you don't always have to be to make money in pro-wrestling.

 

And the comparisons between Lesnar and Goldberg are unnecessary IMO. Two totally different types of wrestlers.

[Canadian Brandon 0]

I have a hard time seeing what made him so special. I mean...anyone can grunt and snort like he did on the way to the ring. He had a generic big man move set. I just think that anyone else would have been just as successful in his place.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I have a hard time seeing what made him so special. I mean...anyone can grunt and snort like he did on the way to the ring. He had a generic big man move set. I just think that anyone else would have been just as successful in his place.

But at the same time, he did them so well that people bought him as what he is, I'm not sure everyone can pull it off. I think the closest comparison really is Monty Brown, and even Monty isn't as over as Goldberg. It'd help if the Pounce was a full spear, though

[cabbageboy 0]

Monty Brown comes off as a goofy comedy act masquerading as a vicious killer though. Maybe it's due to his absurd promos?

 

There are all sorts of typical big men given a lame undefeated push (think Umaga right now) that never get over to any degree. Goldberg definitely had something. He had a good setup move and finisher, and also exuded in ring charisma and intensity. And of course things added over time like his music and the entrance with the guards got him mega over.

 

That said, I too enjoyed Nash ending his streak. But I've given my thoughts on that in other threads.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't think you can truthfully say Goldberg had a generic move set. The spear, jackhammer, pumphandle suplex, thrust kick, etc. were all pretty innovative big man moves back in 1997 & 1998. Hell, if nothing else, a lot of his moves were ripped off by WWF guys a year or two later.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Plus, Goldberg had a couple of different slams and suplexes that were unique looking. Dude had a good moveset. It was just wether he could pull them all off correctly in any given match.

[Rendclaw 0]

I loved Goldberg. To me, he was a breath of fresh air in a world of generic big men all doing the same moves (except the Giant before his knees went bad. Remember his squashes of Chris Benoit and Ric Flair?), and his intensity was off the charts. Both of these things got him over in a hurry, and by the time Nash ended his streak, the streak itself had outlived its usefulness anyway.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

There was also something about how the guys would take the spear. When Goldberg hit the spear it was amazing to see. When someone would get hit hard enough where the announcers could do nothing but UNDERSELL the impact and the reaction no matter how big they sold it. If they described it as someone being "hit by a truck" there was no exaggerating. THAT is an intangible.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

..,how can the guy go from being unknown to WCW biggest draw EVER(that's actually a fact)...

Not even close to being a fact.

[JST 0]

There was also something about how the guys would take the spear.

 

The nastiest one (and recent) I can recall is Rumble '04 when he killed Nunzio with it.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Now that somebody mentioned it, what was the deal with Goldberg being escorted to the ring anyway?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

DP

[cd213 0]

I was never a fan of Goldberg. I found him boring and overrated. I think the post that brought up Brock was correct. He was a better wrestler and more intense. Also, when Brock's undefeated streak ended people still cared for him, when Godlberg's ended no one gave a crap about him. Brock worked both as a face and heel, while no one gave a shit for heel Goldberg.

[Special K 0]

He had charisma and cool moves for sure. They also let him stiff the living shit out of people in the ring.

 

I'll agree that Lesnar was a better version of Goldberg. Huge, explosive, cool moves, looked unbeatable. In-ring charisma, couldn't talk. They're quite similar in some ways. Lesnar was far more of a physical freak, and wasn't booked as strongly as Goldberg.

 

The thing Lesnar had against him was he was a howdy-doody looking motherfucker.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Goldberg had far more natural charisma than Lesnar and also had one of the most important things, credibility - at least until he was inevitabley misused and ended up as a poor parody of himself.

 

So no, any other random big man could not have replicated Goldberg's success. To even mention Heidenreich as possibly being able to do it is a joke.

[cabbageboy 0]

I won't argue that Lesnar was a better actual in ring wrestler or had more amateur skills. That's obvious. But Lesnar never really got THAT over as either a heel or face in my book, beyond just "Oh, this guy is a big dude that's getting pushed hard." As said above, he had a dorky Howdy Doody look that made him seem like Bob Backlund on steroids.

 

Lesnar hardly had some hugely dominant undefeated streak. He went from April 2002 to November 2002 (where he lost to Show) and in that time he lost several matches to RVD via DQ. Brock never had "The Streak" per se. Ironically enough I think in the long run Lesnar was booked STRONGER than Goldberg. Goldberg was booked into oblivion after he lost to Nash and never really got another serious shot at the title on PPV. Lesnar's loss to the Big Show was something that set up his face turn and led to him chasing Angle and the title at WM.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

While I agree, Brock went heatless for awhile. I have to disagree with cabbage, eventually the fans took to him once his feud with the Undertaker ended. Hell, just go watch SSeries 2002. The fans in NY fucking made the guy. The deafening pop he got when the lights go out still gives me goosebumps. It was afterwards WWE got him to be a face that worked out well with the fanbase, only problem as with a lot of guys going face, they're characters are booked horribly so really Brock Lesnar was better off as a monster heel.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think Brock's squashes of Zach Gowen and Spanky Kendrick on Smackdown were some of the best monster heel moments ever.

 

I mean, how could you not like Brock beating the crap out of a one-legged wrestler, in front of his own mom?

[cabbageboy 0]

When you have to resort to beating up a crippled kid to get over as a heel, doesn't that say something? Not saying I didn't enjoy him beating up Gowen, since Zach was a total waste of space.

[haws bah gawd 0]

There isnt much I can add to the discussion that hasnt already been said. Goldberg had an almost unmatched intensity in the ring. His look, entrance, music, in-ring personality, all added to his appeal. The first time I saw him on TV, in his debut against Hugh Morrus, all I saw was a 6'5 more muscular version of Steve Austin. Then I see this guy kick out of Morrus's moonsault (which was death at the time), then bust out a standing moonsault, before splattering Morrus all over the ground with this weird suplex/powerslam thing. I knew right then and there that I was seeing the beginning of something special.

 

One of my favorite Goldberg moments was from very early in his WCW tenure. He had a television title match against Disco Inferno. This freak of nature had the man speared and Jackhammered before the bell even rang to start the match. Even though he won the match by DQ thanks to interference from Mongo, it still helped add to his monster persona.

 

The man got over (as others have said ) without ever saying a word. He LOOKED like a killer. Goldberg was never technically sound, but he didn't need to be. Fans cheered his name throughout a show just hoping to see him destroy some random wrestler in under a minute with some of the most devastating moves at the time.

 

If WWE had continued to book Goldberg as the monster that he was in WCW, I have a feeling we would probably still be seeing him wrestle today.

[Red Baron 0]

He would have got stale for so long. Don't forget Goldberg became sloppy when his movest became limited.

 

I still remembered when Goldberg jackhammered The Giant...that was awesome.

[cabbageboy 0]

It also helped that WCW had a huge roster of jobbers to feed to Goldberg to get him over. In WWE I don't think the roster was so big that they could feed a bunch of guys to him to get him over. Instead he came out of the gate, rusty, against major stars like The Rock and Jericho. The WWE audience had been taught for years to ridicule Goldberg (remember Gillberg?) and now suddenly were supposed to cheer him against The Rock? It doesn't work that way.

 

I've always found it amusing that the obvious reasons to sign Goldberg were to job him to Austin and then have a match with Lesnar where they job him and send him packing. He never faced Austin and actually got the win over Lesnar. In between he actually got a clean win over The Rock, Chris Jericho, and won the title from HHH. People say Goldberg got buried by WWE, but he only really lost 2 matches that I can recall (Elimination Chamber and then at Armageddon 2003).

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah, I wouldn't say the problem with Goldber in WWE was him not beating enough people. It was just more about how his character was portrayed. They wasted a lot of effort in trying to make him comedic, or turn him into the next Rock, when he should have just been an all out badass beating the crap out of people.