NFL Discussion Forumtable

[Brett Favre 0]

I don't know. Can Bulger and McNair lead the team 20 yards down the field for a game winning field goal?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Does anyone here actually think the Patriots would have won three Super Bowls with Marc Bulger or Steve McNair as their quarterback?

 

would the teams still have Vinatieri?

 

So now we are going to diminish the importance of Brady in winning those SBs and give extra credit to the freaking kicker?

[Black Lushus 0]

look, I'm not going to diminish Brady's skills, however, all 3 SB wins were by 3 points with Vinatieri scoring the final 3 points in each game...two were last second kicks, one was the defense holding up.

[snuffbox 0]

C'mon cheech...how many Superbowls would Smiley Jesus win with the Lions? Or even a middling team like the Dolphins?

 

How 'bout if he had Vandergajt instead?

[naiwf 0]

Exactly, give Peyton Vinatieri for the last 5 years and saddle Brady with Vanderchoke, and the ring tally would be VERY different.

[Black Lushus 0]

hopefully we see one of two outcomes this weekend: Vinateiri hits a GW FG or he misses one.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Does anyone here actually think the Patriots would have won three Super Bowls with Marc Bulger or Steve McNair as their quarterback?

Bulger? A good chance. McNair? Probably not, as he's proven to be a poor "clutch" QB.

[hyperchord24 0]

Let's not forget that after the 2000 season, everyone's mantra became "defense wins championships."

[KingPK 0]

Exactly, give Peyton Vinatieri for the last 5 years and saddle Brady with Vanderchoke, and the ring tally would be VERY different.

 

Vinatieri would have prevented Manning from having a near 1:1 TD/INT ratio in his postseason career (with the ratio even worse if you take out the Denver games since HALF of his 16 career TD passes came in those two contests)? Vanderjagt would stop Brady from having an over 2:1 TD/INT ratio in his postseason career (a 6:1 ratio in Super Bowls along with a completion average over 60%)?

 

NOW who is being stupid? I mean, can people at least look at the stats a LITTLE before spouting off crap like that?

Edited January 18, 2007 by KingPK

[The Man in Blak 0]

Does anyone here actually think the Patriots would have won three Super Bowls with Marc Bulger or Steve McNair as their quarterback?

 

This is always a bit of a trick question but, in terms of sheer talent, I don't think it would be too unrealistic to say that they would have a shot with McNabb (who you mentioned earlier), Bulger or McNair, simply because their defense and the surrounding cast on offense has been pretty good over those Super Bowl wins. (2001 is probably the weakest crew, but they also had the luxury of playing the choke-a-licious Rams that year.) You can't really deny that Brady is a great quarterback, but he's hardly the primary reason for the Patriots' success.

[naiwf 0]

The Tuck Rule game, and 2 SB winning kicks were made by Vinatieri. How many of those does Vanderjagt make? Maybe 1 of 3 on a good day. The Pats wouldn't have won those games, or even been able to get to some of those games with a different kicker. Completion % and TD/INT ratio are pretty useless when all of the games in question came down to a FG make or miss, and the Pats always made 'em while the Colts always missed. The Colts have won 2 playoff games with Manning playing like shit. The reason why they're still alive right now is that they've got Vinatieri this year.

[KingPK 0]

*BUZZ*

 

The correct answer is that their defense finally woke up.

 

EDIT: My point was that, even with Vinatieri, Peyton's playoff numbers say that it's doubtful that he would be able to A) Keep the game close and B) Put Vinatieri into makeable FG position in the first place. Last year, on that last drive against Pittsburgh, Peyton tried to go for it all on 2nd or 3rd down instead of trying to get closer for Vanderjagt and forced him to make a longer kick (He's 66-85 on kicks from 40-49 yards, his worst distance; that kick was from 46 yards).

Edited January 18, 2007 by KingPK

[naiwf 0]

Oh really, and how did they manage to score during that dreadful game against the Ravens? 5 FGs. Peyton missed a wide open, gimme TD and he got bailed out repeatedly by the non liquored up kicker, while "Mr. Accuracy" got cut midseason by the Cowboys. All 3 of your titles came down to the defense and kicker. Nothing can take those away, but if you swap kickers or QBs with the Colts you'd have at most 1 championship, and the Colts would have at least 1 as well. When Vinatieri is as responsible as any guy on the team for winning the 4 biggest games in the dynasty that's saying something, but hey let's give all of the credit to Brady for getting the team in position to make 45-48 yarders..

[KingPK 0]

Nothing can take those away, but if you swap kickers or QBs with the Colts you'd have at most 1 championship, and the Colts would have at least 1 as well.

 

Wait a second. First you say swap kickers, now you add the QBs into it? Make up your mind and I'll continue this discussion with you.

 

Again, without that defense stepping up, 15 points wouldn't have got the job done against Baltimore.

[snuffbox 0]

Another thing that shows disrespect is when the media constantly compares Belicheck to Vince Lombardi. Are you kidding me, tv experts? Lombardi wishes he was as good as Belicheck! Or at least he would if he wasn't so dead.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Exactly, give Peyton Vinatieri for the last 5 years and saddle Brady with Vanderchoke, and the ring tally would be VERY different.

 

2002- Didn't make playoffs

2003 - killed 41-0

2004- easily defeated 24-14

2005- waxed 20-3

2006- lost closely 21-18

 

Oh yeah, give those Colts a decent kicker and they probably would have won the championship every year. Are you serious? They might have been able to beat the Steelers last year if Vanderjagt makes that FG and sends it to overtime, but they still would have had to win that game, the AFC Championship and Super Bowl.

 

Vinateiri is a great kicker, and has come up big every time they've needed him. But they haven't won anything because of him. It's like a closer in baseball. He might be able to lose you a game, but he's not doing anything to win it for you.

[snuffbox 0]

Tom Brady should kick the field goals too. Shit, anyone can do it.

[KingPK 0]

Are you going to even attempt to discuss anything, snuffbox?

[naiwf 0]

Exactly, give Peyton Vinatieri for the last 5 years and saddle Brady with Vanderchoke, and the ring tally would be VERY different.

 

2002- Didn't make playoffs

2003 - killed 41-0

2004- easily defeated 24-14

2005- waxed 20-3

2006- lost closely 21-18

 

Oh yeah, give those Colts a decent kicker and they probably would have won the championship every year. Are you serious? They might have been able to beat the Steelers last year if Vanderjagt makes that FG and sends it to overtime, but they still would have had to win that game, the AFC Championship and Super Bowl.

 

Vinateiri is a great kicker, and has come up big every time they've needed him. But they haven't won anything because of him. It's like a closer in baseball. He might be able to lose you a game, but he's not doing anything to win it for you.

 

Where did I say the Colts would win every year? If you read my point, Vanderjagt would have ended up COSTING the Pats a few rings. He fucking sucks under pressure, and the Patriot Dynasty hinges on 3 40+ yarders, the Tuck Rule game and the 2 SB winners. Way to miss the point though.

 

The whole argument here is that the Pats could have won with a different QB because they had a great clutch kicker, If Manning was a Pat they would still have won, if you put Brady on the Colts or Vanderjagt on the Pats there's no way they'd have 3 rings. Whichever way you want to envision that swap being made the end result would be the same.

[KingPK 0]

The whole argument here is that the Pats could have won with a different QB because they had a great clutch kicker, If Manning was a Pat they would still have won, if you put Brady on the Colts or Vanderjagt on the Pats there's no way they'd have 3 rings. Whichever way you want to envision that swap being made the end result would be the same.

 

After looking at Manning's postseason stats AND hypothetically taking away Marvin Harrison and that receiving corps and replacing them with New England's? I find that hard to believe. Conversely, put a more consistent passer in Brady on the Colts WITH solid guys like Harrison and Wayne? The kicker may not come into play in that situation.

[naiwf 0]

Manning wouldn't have needed to try to score 30 points per with the Pats 'D' behind him. Brady would have had to worry about the Colts giving up as many as he could get, even with the improved players at the skill positions. Then there's always the fact that Belichick would be able to scheme against Brady better than Dungy could against Manning because he's just much better than Dungy.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I tend to agree with KingPK on this one, but no one's really right or wrong because we don't know what other moves woud have been made. You could say that Brady wouldn't have won with Vanderjagt, but I would argue he never would have had to because Belichick would have figured out in 5 or 6 weeks that he couldn't kick for shit outdoors and made a move.

 

I think New England would have won those titles even without Vinateiri. He didn't do anything that Nate Kaeding, Josh Brown, David Akers or 5 or 6 other kickers couldn't have done. He still gets credit for coming up big when he had to, but they weren't superhuman feats.

[KingPK 0]

Manning wouldn't have needed to try to score 30 points per with the Pats 'D' behind him. Brady would have had to worry about the Colts giving up as many as he could get, even with the improved players at the skill positions. Then there's always the fact that Belichick would be able to scheme against Brady better than Dungy could against Manning because he's just much better than Dungy.

 

Ok, bringing that into consideration, I can see your point there. I was just thinking that Manning and Harrison work like mad to get their timing down before every game so taking away him and replacing him with someone like Troy Brown or Deion Branch, though Manning could work with either of them and create the same kind of synergy, neither guy has the raw talent that Harrison does.

Edited January 18, 2007 by KingPK

[naiwf 0]

I tend to agree with KingPK on this one, but no one's really right or wrong because we don't know what other moves woud have been made. You could say that Brady wouldn't have won with Vanderjagt, but I would argue he never would have had to because Belichick would have figured out in 5 or 6 weeks that he couldn't kick for shit outdoors and made a move.

 

I think New England would have won those titles even without Vinateiri. He didn't do anything that Nate Kaeding, Josh Brown, David Akers or 5 or 6 other kickers couldn't have done. He still gets credit for coming up big when he had to, but they weren't superhuman feats.

 

The same Nate Kaeding that missed a GW FG against the Jets in 2004-05 and the guy who just missed a GT FG last weekend? Just checking if that's the guy or not.

 

Don't get me wrong I'll be rooting for the Pats because I'm a fan of Brady (being from U of M) and don't have much love for the Manning clan, but kickers are not as replacable as people think, otherwise guys like Automatica and Vanderjagt wouldn't ever get cut because they're so "accurate" relatively speaking. Vinatieri is 19 for 20 on GW kicks inside of a minute to go. No one else in the league is that good.

[snuffbox 0]

Can we change this thread's name to 'Patriots Discussion Forumtable' or something?

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

But they haven't won anything because of him.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

[The Man in Blak 0]

Nah, it's easy, Czech.

 

Last year, Vinatieri was considered the clutchiest clutch kicker that ever clutched in NFL History.

 

But this year, it's now quite obvious that Vinatieri didn't do anything that Nate Kaeding, Josh Brown, David Akers or 5 or 6 other kickers couldn't have done.

 

I'm at a loss to explain how such a change in attitude would have occurred in a single year but, surely, there is a logical explanation.

[snuffbox 0]

But they haven't won anything because of him.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

 

Tom Brady was wearing a Vinateiri jersey and kicked the field goals himself.

[Cartman 0]

Vinatieri is a great kicker and was just as responsible for the 3 Superbowls as any other part of those teams.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

My bad on not quoting the post by hyperchord24 that originally started this discussion.

 

Just curious... has Vinny lost his leg strength or something? His season longs the past 4 years have been 48, 49, 48, and 48.

 

As for Kaeding... he missed a 54 yard GT field goal. That's as far from a gimme FG as one can get. It's not like he was going for a 30 yard chip shot or anything. IIRC, his last miss against the Jets was also over 45+ yards.