NFL Discussion Forumtable

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

WHO LET THE DOGS OUT???

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The feds get a conviction over 95% of the time. Like someone else said, they don't try to make a case. They only proceed when they know they are getting a conviction. I'm sure Vick has the money and resources to get off, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

I believe that federal cases usually move much faster than normal trials. Its conceivable that he is on trial and a decision is made before the season even starts. Even if it doesn't, I still don't see Vick taking the field this year.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Question- supposing he gets convicted, what could be the possible sentences handed out to Vick? I cannot really see him going to jail for any longer than a few months.

[Ripper 0]

Vick probably won't get a conviction. THeir entire case is based on witness accounts, which any lawyer will tear apart. Plus with the small punishment attached, the other two guys named in the case will probably claim it was all them and Vick had nothing to do with it. Looking at the indictment, they don't have anything material to link Vick. Only the claims of a few informants.

 

Now do I think he actually did it? The level of specifics of some of the stories are striking (the ones about him coming to the fights and such). The dog killings, all of them are "after consulting Vick" and then the other two killed the dogs. Thos are iffy hearsay crap. But involved, yeah, he probably was. But he isn't going to get convicted on this.

 

But there is no way they could suspend him for this upcoming season. It would have to be after a conviction.

 

Are you out of your mind? That's a nineteen page federal indictment, with over fourteen pages of overt acts towards the crime, many of which pertain directly to the condition of Vick's property throughout federal investigation. The evidence includes dog purchases that coincide directly after Vick bought the house, alterations made to Vick's property to facilitate dog fighting, and "equipment" (including about 50 pit bulls, some of which had injuries consistent with those one would expect from dog fighting) used for the continued operation of breeding and testing the dogs for fighting. The multiple pages of "witness accounts" are just the cherry on the shit sundae.

 

 

And there is no paper trail connecting Vick. His indictment would have come because he owned the property regardless (and he would have gotten off because he has to prove that he had no knowledge and had no part in what was going on there). Their case against VICK is the witnesses and the fact he owned the property. The witnesses connect him with the going ons there and him owning it connects Vick to the case. That is all they have on VICK.

 

Now the other two are pretty well fucked. There is a paper trail connected them, they lived at the house so they knew what was going on, and the witnesses put them there.

 

Vicks lawyers have to discredit the witnesses. The other two have to hope they get a light sentence.

 

I am not saying the feds case is flimsy and they will get a conviction because there is no ducking it for two of the guys, but Vicks is duckable because if he is guilty he was smart enough not to go around signing shit and writing shit down.

 

They have a incredibly strong case though. I just don't know if the stuff against the big fish in the case will hold up.

[Ripper 0]

I just noticed I kept saying two when it should have been 3. the other 3 are fucked, unless they testify against Vick which is what the procecutors probably want.

 

But really, if you read the indictment, Vick is charged with conspiracy meaning that he is being charged with things that he wasn't present for, but he knew about. His lawyers have to prove he didn't know.

 

It will all pretty much hinge on the other 3 guys.

[The Man in Blak 0]

You keep misdirecting around the "lack of a paper trail" and this asinine idea that Vick's own private Justice League of lawyers are going to be able to discredit witnesses that accounted for pages upon pages worth of allegations, but you don't seem to understand that the witnesses are ultimately secondary to Vick's involvement with the staging of the dogfighting operation, which can be demonstrated by pointing to his purchase of the property, as well as the additions made to the property by Bad Newz Kennels (of which Vick was a co-founder).

 

More importantly, though, it's worth driving home that this is a federal conspiracy charge, which means that the federal prosecutors can link Vick's involvement to the operation without having to prove that he was physically present for any illegal dealings or activity. It's not so easy to simply state what somebody knew or did not know at any given time; there is a ton of evidence, both factual and circumstantial, that points to his likely involvement in the dogfighting and that conclusion will likely be more than enough to stick him with an indictment for conspiracy, let alone the Travel Act violation charge.

[Danville_Wrestling 0]

This could shape up in any number of ways. One, Vick plays during the year because this is his "first offense" while still having the trial over his head and the NFL is blasted for having a "double standard" on player conduct. Two, Vick is suspended due to the indictment and Atlanta has to try to find a good QB to replace him to have any chance during the year.

 

Or three, Vick is suspended due to the indictment, the Falcons ownership gives him the boot, the Falcons proceed to suck this coming season earning the #1 pick in the draft, and then Bobby Petrino decides to draft his boy Brian Brohm #1 out of Louisville.

[UZI Suicide 0]

I think it's kind of ironic that Vick had dogs killed due to poor performance. If the same thing applied to football, he'd have been put down years ago.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I think it's kind of ironic that Vick had dogs killed due to poor performance. If the same thing applied to football, he'd have been put down years ago.

 

 

Someone notify those idiots up in the WWE folder that this is what a good joke looks like.

[Ripper 0]

You keep misdirecting around the "lack of a paper trail" and this asinine idea that Vick's own private Justice League of lawyers are going to be able to discredit witnesses that accounted for pages upon pages worth of allegations, but you don't seem to understand that the witnesses are ultimately secondary to Vick's involvement with the staging of the dogfighting operation, which can be demonstrated by pointing to his purchase of the property, as well as the additions made to the property by Bad Newz Kennels (of which Vick was a co-founder).

 

More importantly, though, it's worth driving home that this is a federal conspiracy charge, which means that the federal prosecutors can link Vick's involvement to the operation without having to prove that he was physically present for any illegal dealings or activity. It's not so easy to simply state what somebody knew or did not know at any given time; there is a ton of evidence, both factual and circumstantial, that points to his likely involvement in the dogfighting and that conclusion will likely be more than enough to stick him with an indictment for conspiracy, let alone the Travel Act violation charge.

 

 

Him owning the property alone does not constitute enough to say that he was involved. It is enough to get an indictment though. I am happy you do understand what the conspiracy charge means. If you read the indictment, there is no mention of Vick being physically at any of the dog fights. Their evidence is that according to witnesses Vick was sponsoring the dog.

 

While damning and probably true, that is something that can be fought. Vick can maintain that the equipment was bought as part of a legitimate kennel, which he and I think the others are liscensed to do, so once again, his defense case has some legs to stand on. 7 years and there is no clear cut, solid, evidence to directly link Vick to this outside the testimonys of witnesses, most of whom didn't actually see Vick there. Once again, his case has some legs. His case will have NO legs if one of the other charged says he knew about it.

 

While the feds have a great case record, conspiracy charges are difficult to prove and aren't as automatic. Rather you want to believe it or not, Vick has a very beatable case here unless one of his co-defendants turns and testifies against him. If you have all of them testifying that he didn't know anything about it, along with witnesses that didn't actually see him, he is not going to get convicted.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

If the decision is the judge's only, then you have something there, but put the case in front of 12 men and women, I think you'll have a harder time combating inherent biases, against Vick and against dogfighting in general.

[Ripper 0]

If the decision is the judge's only, then you have something there, but put the case in front of 12 men and women, I think you'll have a harder time combating inherent biases, against Vick and against dogfighting in general.

 

 

You also have a hard time making people find someone guilty of something when they aren't there. Thats why conspiracy charges are so tough. People like to punish those that are actually there committing the crime.

 

For every horrible detail of this, his lawyers are going to cross with "Did you see mister vick there?" and the answer is going to have to be "No." everytime.

 

Which is once again, why the others are fucked. Vick is likely fucked but has some wiggle room.

[Black Lushus 0]

so hey, where's Culpepper going to end up....

 

 

 

 

fuck a buncha Mike Mexico talk.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The Falcons are probably almost hoping that the NFL hands down a suspension before the season starts. It's going to be a shitstorm come that first week when they have to make a decision between Vick and Harrington. I don't think any team wants the face of the franchise to have the reputation of a brutal dog fighter.

[2GOLD 0]

so hey, where's Culpepper going to end up....

 

 

 

 

fuck a buncha Mike Mexico talk.

 

I really don't know where he could end up. I think it would be kind of funny if he ends up back in Minnesota behind Jackson in the back-up role. His days as a starting quarterback are over though. Wherever he goes, it's going to be a back-up role where the only way he gets in is if the starter looks horrible. I still don't think he got a fair shake in Miami but oh well, that's how it goes.

 

Also, Troy Brown is back with the Pats for his 15th and more than 100% likely final season. It's going to be weird when he retires not seeing him out there for New England. Guy has been on the team for most of my life, it's crazy.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Culpepper will get another chance to start. Jacksonville is definitely interested, from what I've heard. Atlanta has to be at least thinking about him. The Raiders should be. There are a lot of opportunities for him out there, especially if he waits until a few weekds into the season to see how things shake out.

[Ripper 0]

Atlanta should sign him yesterday. You don't want Joey fucking Harrington as your starter in case Vick can not play. I do think Vick will play to start the season though, but just in case, Dante Culpepper isn't a bad alternative.

[JasonX 0]

Commish Goodell is kicking himself right about now for starting the "zero tolerance" policy. Now Goodell will have to hand out a major suspension to one of the league's biggest stars to avoid being perceived as a joke.

 

Given that Michael Vick has and is a huge joke in terms of being an underachieving dick that makes Peyton Manning look like "Little Miss Over-Achiever" ten years running, he should be suspended and run out of the league forever.

[The Man in Blak 0]

For every horrible detail of this, his lawyers are going to cross with "Did you see mister vick there?" and the answer is going to have to be "No." everytime.

 

You're glad that I understand the conspiracy charges? They don't have to prove that he was physically present for the charge to stick. He can be complicit in their completion by financial association (sponsoring the dogs) and, given that he co-founded the kennel with the other three guys, there is plenty of evidence to show that such an association was in place throughout the illegal activity.

 

And if you could take a moment to explain how "buried car axles with chains" are standard operating equipment for a legitimate kennel, I'd really appreciate it.

[Ripper 0]

Will you stop bolding things that I have said over and over. Did you happen to read the paragraph before this and what I was responding to? Conspiracy charges don't have great conviction rates because juries in general don't like the idea of convicting people of stuff when they weren't there. Therefore they have to prove that he knew and the only clean cut way to get that is to get one of the other defendants to testify against him or find something directly showing his knowledge. THAT part is a tough conviction.

 

And out of all that you point out what they chained the dogs to? Thats like the least disturbing thing out of all of this. The dogs were chained and not caged. they attached the chains to buried car axles. There is nothing cruel about that at all(one of the few things that weren't cruel).

 

 

[Guest •]

OOKIE!

 

My new name must be Ookie.

 

 

But you know, if "conduct detrimental to the league" doesn't even require being found guilty of a crime, just looking like you may have, like with Tank Johnson and Pacman Jones, then there's no question that Michael Vick is out for the year. Man up, Rodge.

[Ripper 0]

Tank did get found guilty. Pacman didn't.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Tank was in jail though. That's the basis for the suspension.

[Guest •]

But you know he would've been suspended had the Bears not done so.

[devo 0]

The Jets signed former European Leaguer Juan Wong recently. There isn't anything particularly remarkable about this, I just really, really like the name Juan Wong.

[Guest •]

MICHAEL VICK BRUTALLY KILLED TANK JOHNSON'S PITBULLS TO SPOIL PACMAN JONES'S TNA DEBUT!!!

[The Niggardly King 0]

Brady Quinn is the next Joe Montana.

 

Fixed it for ya.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Quinn is actually losing out the training camp battle to Derek Anderson. The supposed depth chart order at QB is Anderson, Frye and then Quinn.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

He's a rookie taken late in the first round, that's fine.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

He'll be starting by Week 8.