NBA Roundtable Discussion

[Brett Favre 0]

I think McGrady should get consideration for MVP. The team took off when Yao was out and he took over.

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

SI article sizing up the Hall of Fame possibilities of current players with 9 or more years in the league

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...rthy/index.html

 

IMO Of the current players only four are Hall of Famers

 

Duncan

Shaq

Kobe

A.I.

 

Kornheiser mode: THAT'S IT!!! THAT'S THE LIST!!!

[alfdogg 0]

I don't see how Jason Kidd's not on the "no-brainer" list. He has the third-most triple-doubles in history, and while he never won an MVP, he led the Nets to two Finals, something Garnett and Nash can't say (yet, at least).

[Guest]

Gary Payton's in. He has to be.

[Rendclaw 0]

I remember back when McGrady vs. Kobe was a 15 round heavyweight slugfest, because each was a little bit better than the other on one end the floor. Kobe was better offensively, and T-Mac was a better defender.

 

It's not exactly like that anymore. There are times where it seems to me that T-Mac is almost tentative because he's afraid of his back going out on him again.

 

The only issue with T-Mac is that back of his that keeps him from playing out a full season... as he and Yao go, so do the Rockets. Neither one has been able to stay healthy this season, which keeps the Rockets right where they are. They could give either Phoenix or Dallas a serious run in the playoffs in they are both 100% or something close to it.

 

And as to the sniping back and forth, we are all homers for our teams to a one degree or another. I know better than to argue with Laker fans anymore because the majority of them cannot be objective about their team, much less one Kobe Bean Bryant.

 

That being said, I think we can argue without it turning into something about to get out of control, folks. People (especially here) can't say something like "Kobe will get some MVP votes because the media is in love with Dirk and Nash" without someone taking offense to it, whether its true or not.

 

As alf said, lets try and keep it civil.

 

Try to, anyway.

 

Either Nash or Dirk will get the MVP depending on who goes to the Finals, or who had more of an impact in getting there.... right now I think its close to dead even, with Nash having the slight advantage due to the two previous years and the fact that his numbers have gone up this year as opposed to his previous MVP reigns.

 

GP in the hall? I guess that its possible now that he has his ring, though his best body of work was with Seattle... Jason Kidd, definitely.

 

Speaking of the Hall, if you ever have the chance, go to Springfield, Massachusetts and visit that hall. Its more than worth it. I went in the summer of 2005 and I was glad that I did. A good day, to be sure.

[Precious Roy 0]

GP in the hall? I guess that its possible now that he has his ring, though his best body of work was with Seattle... Jason Kidd, definitely.

 

Possible because he won a ring coming off the bench way past his prime? Please. He could have retired 5 years ago and been in. He's a first ballot lock.

[Ripper 0]

Can i mention now that Gary Payton is pretty freakin overrated. People are always listing him as one of the Top Point Guards of all time and how he is a first ballot lock, when honestly, i don't see how you can rank him above Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway when they were simply better than him for just as many years (Payton was a damn good player for 10 years. from like 93-03). If Hardaway and Johnson aren't first ballot guys (and I NEVER hear people argue that) I don't see how Payton is a lock. Hell, Mark price was just as good, but injuries pretty much ended that.

 

And before people say "defensively gary payton was the glove blah blah blah" there was no point in Gary Paytons career where he could guard a quick point guard. Tim Hardaway, Johnson, Kenny Smith, Fucking Negle Knight and Pooh Richardoson would all roast him and he couldn't stay in front of them. Payton got his defensive rep from guarding multiple positions because of his size and playing the passing lanes well.

 

You want to know the truth behind the Sonics losing in the first round those years? They ran into Nick Van Excel and Robert Pack who could do whatever they wanted because Payton couldn't check them.

 

Now I don't want to completely discredit what Payton did in his career. IF Hardaway and Johnson get in the Hall, Payton should be right there because he is the same caliber of guard as they are. He was very good at being both a scorer and playmaker, and made that Seattle team very good. But he just isn't the end all be all at the point guard position in the post Magic generation like people like to say he is.

 

And to add, if Payton is a Lock then a guy like Chris Webber and Stephon Marbury should be too.

 

I just don't think that getting ring as a hanger on at the end of your career is what changes you from good player to hall of famer.

[Guest]

I think KJ should get in the Hall easy.

 

I don't have really high standards, I think that guys with good careers like Gary and KJ deserve to get honored appropriately. I don't really feel that way about Tim Hardaway for some reason. Maybe because he played in Golden State.

 

Just to clarify, since this might come up because Gary was a Laker...I never liked the guy. Never in my entire life have I liked him, I hate the way he acts and the court and I think he's a shitty sportsman in general. So if anything I'm biased against him. I try to separate his time with the Sonics from the rest of his career and let that stand alone. His time with the Sonics was good enough to get him in, in my estimation.

[Ripper 0]

I think KJ should get in the Hall easy.

 

I don't have really high standards, I think that guys with good careers like Gary and KJ deserve to get honored appropriately. I don't really feel that way about Tim Hardaway for some reason. Maybe because he played in Golden State.

 

Just to clarify, since this might come up because Gary was a Laker...I never liked the guy. Never in my entire life have I liked him, I hate the way he acts and the court and I think he's a shitty sportsman in general. So if anything I'm biased against him. I try to separate his time with the Sonics from the rest of his career and let that stand alone. His time with the Sonics was good enough to get him in, in my estimation.

 

You can't have those two without Tim. And to be clear, Kevin Johnson is my favorite player of all time and I think i still hold a grudge with Scott Skiles for ending his career prematurely, and I am iffy on him getting in. He had 9 REALLY REALLY good season. Gary had 10, and Tim Hardaway had 10. Mark Price had 8.

 

Chris Webber had 13 really really really good seasons, and has had more playoff sucess than Kevin Garnett and people say he shouldn't get in.

 

I am just wondering where is the cutoff between good career and great. like how many good years do you need before you get in. If we go on the Bill Walton scale, they all should make it.

 

I don't know. thats why I am shaky on these guys. Especially with Payton, because I don't think you can point to any time in his career he was a top 4 point guard in the league. there were always at least 4 guys better( I know, not fair because Stockton was taking the number one spot all the time, but still).

[Guest]

I hold different players (mostly guys at different positions) to different standards. The way that Gary fell off the face of the earth and still hung around, it's going to be a lot harder for the voters to just forget about his time with the Heat.

 

Getting a ring doesn't mean anything to me as far as getting in the Hall goes, Mitch Richmond got one with us and I forget about it all the time.

 

I think Webber's in or close to it, by the way. But none of these players that we've talked about are locks, because none of these guys really changed the way the game was played, or played it at a much higher level than anyone else (save maybe one or two guys) that was playing the position at the time. I wouldn't complain if any of these point guards didn't get in. That's what it takes to get a lock from me.

 

The only locks that I have that are currently playing are Shaq (different level than anyone else I'm mentioning), Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd and A.I.

 

Say what you want about KG's lack of success, but he changed the game.

[Ripper 0]

I hold different players (mostly guys at different positions) to different standards. The way that Gary fell off the face of the earth and still hung around, it's going to be a lot harder for the voters to just forget about his time with the Heat.

 

Getting a ring doesn't mean anything to me as far as getting in the Hall goes, Mitch Richmond got one with us and I forget about it all the time.

 

I think Webber's in or close to it, by the way. But none of these players that we've talked about are locks, because none of these guys really changed the way the game was played, or played it at a much higher level than anyone else (save maybe one or two guys) that was playing the position at the time. I wouldn't complain if any of these point guards didn't get in. That's what it takes to get a lock from me.

 

The only locks that I have that are currently playing are Shaq (different level than anyone else I'm mentioning), Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd and A.I.

 

Say what you want about KG's lack of success, but he changed the game.

 

 

I would agree with those locks minus KG. Sure, he changed some things, but you can't see how you can really make a argument against Duncan, Shaq, Kobe Kidd and AI. I can argue KG.

[Guest]

Yeah, an argument can definitely be made against him.

 

He paved the way for kids that made the jump from high school to the NBA, but it could be said that it was a bad thing.

[Ripper 0]

If Shawn Marion continued on his pace would you put him in?

 

Personally he has the quietest amazing numbers i have ever seen. I think his disappearing offensively in some playoffs will hurt him though. But really, the guy is on my favorite team and I forget about him everyonce and a while.

[Guest]

Yes, first ballot.

 

Steve Nash gets on my in list too if he wins another MVP or has a season like this next year. I don't really care about longevity, 5 or 6 years of greatness is good enough for me. For the players that are good, but not great like Gary Payton, I need 8-9 years. It's harder for a basketball player's body to hold up as they get older.

 

As an aside, it's a shame that Ray Allen gets no press. I was just thinking about it a few days ago, and I feel like everyone's going to remember him like they remember Mitch Richmond. As a guy that played for two junk teams, then rides the bench on a contender late in his career.

[Precious Roy 0]

Especially with Payton, because I don't think you can point to any time in his career he was a top 4 point guard in the league. there were always at least 4 guys better

 

Yeah, that's pretty much not true at all. Even if you were more of a Hardaway or KJ fan you can't argue that either one was clearly better than Payton in any of his prime years. Who else was out there? Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, Kenny Anderson? Jason Kidd in the late 90's, sure, but come on. Saying Gary Payton was NEVER one of the 4 best PGs in any year is ridiculous and shows some pretty clear bias against the cat.

 

Also not to be overlooked is that he was an ironman, averaging close to or 40 minutes per for most of his career, and routinely playing 82 (9 times to be exact). Aside from the strike year, he's never played less than 77 in a year! For 16 years! That's incredible. He's 6th all-time in assists, 3rd all-time in steals, top 5 in scoring from the point. Kevin Johnson had 9 "really good" years, but never once played 82 games. From 92-96 he played in less than 70 every year, failing to break 50 a couple times. He never averaged 40 minutes a game. He's not in any career top 10s. He was a really good player, but I can't take you seriously if you're going to look at the entirety of their careers and say he's as strong of a candidate as Payton. Same goes for Tim Hardaway. He had like 7 or 8 really good years, but had a handful of seasons where he missed 15-20 games. Longevity and consistency matters in a HOF discussion, and Payton has a decided edge on both of them when it comes to that. Penny Hardway had 5 or 6 really good years, ya know, let's nominate him now!

 

I've got no problem with saying that in their primes and healthy those 3 were neck and neck as players, and that it's a pick em on who's game you liked best. I think Payton was the best all-around of the 3, better defender, more versatile offensively, that's me. I can see why someone would prefer Hardaway or KJ, they were fun to watch, but neither one is a hall of famer.

 

I'd probably put Webber in, BTW. I also think Ray Allen should be a lock, and will be with another year or two near his current pace, but I don't think too many people would argue with that.

[Ripper 0]

Yes, Payton played longer. But being mediocre and for a while to tack on to the end of good years is not the same as play great all those years. He has 9 really good seasons.

 

Yes, you can say that Haradaway and Johnson were easily better than payton. Both were clearly better scorers and better playmakers. Payton played the passing lane better than the two of them, but niether Hardaway or Johnson were bad defensively either(Johnson is one of the few players to record a triple double with steals). We are talking about 2 of the 4 players to average over 20 and 10 for at least 3 seasons in a row.

 

You can say "Hey, Gary is top eight in assist." which would be impressive if it didn't take 17 freakin years to get there. Yes he has 20,000 points and 8000 assist which will pretty much lock him in there.

 

But he only has 9 legitamately really good seasons. So does KJ, so does Tim Hardaway, and so does Mark Price.

 

I do challenge you to name the year that Gary Payton was a top 4 point and I will name 4 points that were easily better than him....as a matter of fact, let me beat you to it.

 

 

I will only take the years he actually was relevant and having great numbers. The mediocre years I will leave out.

 

 

93-94 - Kevin Johnson, Mark Price and John Stockton all clearly out played him. I say Kenny Anderson and Mookie Blaylock outplayed him two, but not as clearly as the others

 

94-95 - John Stockton (i can really stop naming him until his last two years here),Tim Hardaway, Anfernee Hardaway were clearly better, and once again, I would argue Mookie Blaylock as he was the superior defender. I would say Dana Barros but that is just plain bias and I realize it....just wanted to shout out Danas big year.

 

Eh...have to make dinner

 

but serious, I can do this for every year. He was always top 5. But like I said, never top 4.

 

If the Hall of Fame is for longevity, then sure, and once agian, I am not saying Payton doesn't belong in the Hall, its just its annoying when people throw up question marks about Price, Johnson, Hardaway, and for some reason, Mark Fucking Jackson, but say "Oh yeah...gary payton belongs he's a lock." when he had as many good years as the other guys, who's best years were better than paytons best years and if you look, their teams consistantly played better than Gary's.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

NBA Championship: 2006 (Miami Heat)

9-time NBA All-Star: 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003

9-time All-NBA:

First Team: 1998, 2000

Second Team: 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2002

Third Team: 1994, 2001

9-time All-Defensive First Team member: 1994–2002 (shares record for selections)

NBA Defensive Player of The Year: 1996 (only guard to win the award in the 1990's)

NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1991

 

In NBA history (as of 27th March 2007):

ranks 21nd in points (21,792) - passed Larry Bird (21,791) on March 26, 2007

ranks 6th in assists (8,941)

ranks 3rd in steals (2,441)

ranks 7th in minutes (46,994)

ranks 9th in games (1328) - trails Moses Malone by 1 game

 

Only player in NBA history to accumulate 20,000 points, 5,000 rebounds, 8,000 assists and 2,000 steals in a career

Along with John Stockton, Payton is one of only two players to compile 8,000 assists and 2,000 steals in his career (Note: steals were first recorded in 1973)

 

Between 1990-91 and 2005-06, Payton was first in the league in total minutes played, games played, and steals, was second in total assists (behind John Stockton), and was third in points (Karl Malone, Shaquille O'Neal). During this span, Payton also led all guards in offensive rebounds.

 

That's a damn good resume. Along with Stockton, he was the best point guard of the nineties. I don't know how you can argue otherwise, and I liked KJ and Tim Hardaway a lot.

[Precious Roy 0]

99-00 Payton averaged 24 pts, 9 assists, 6.5 boards, 2 steals, shot about .45% and led the NBA in 3's made. Who was better than him? Sam Cassell had a great year, 20 pts, 10 assists, 4 boards, 1.5 steals, Kidd had a nice year of 14-10-7-2 which came along with his typical 40% shooting, Stockton was at around 12-9-2, Terrell Brandon had a good year for Minnesota, Steve Francis had a nice rookie year, Nick Van Exel had a good year in Denver....but Payton pretty clearly had the best year, and there is no fucking way he's not top FOUR....

 

96-97 Payton went for 22-7-4.6-2.4, shot .475, made like 120 3's. John Stockton, Rod Strickland, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Mookie Blaylock, Mark Jackson, Terrell Brandon and Damon Stoudamire all had really good years, but if you look at the stats across the board, the good shooting, the minutes/games played, the combination of offense and defense, and I'm not seeing anything that keeps Payton out of at least the top 4, if not the #1 spot.

 

I think all of his accolades and the respect he gets from people in and around the game speaks for itself, Just admit you don't like GP and we can move on

[Ripper 0]

I have no problem with Gary Payton. Like i said, I am not arguing that he shouldn't be in the hall. I am arguing that he is the be all end all of points and questioning his greatness is blasphemy. Yes, if you play the 8th most games in NBA history you are going to have some great stats. But once again, we are talking about years of not being the best, but when added up is something. Yes, he deserves ALOT of credit for his longevity. You just aren't going to find guys that will be able to play all 82 or close to it for so long. But I am not going to shove him the title of second best point guard in the 90's especially when he wasn't the second best or third best any of those years except in 96 which honestly completely slipped my mind somehow and 01-02 because everyone else had shitty field goal percentages.

 

I am just not a fan of the whole longevity argument. If you had 10 great years and 6 average ones, you will be looked on as being better than the guy that had 10 great years and retired, and thats kinda bullshit. I guess the Hall is judging the entire career, but its unfair to push guys aside who did it just as well or better than payton for just as long, the called it quits instead of becoming a hanger on to NBA contenders, which, lets be honest, is what gary has been doing for the last 4 years. My entire point is that Gary has played in 17 NBA seasons and for at least 6 of them he wasn't a top 10-15 point guard in the league. One of them, he was better than average and the other 10 were great. But the thing that is putting him above everyone else on most peoples list is the 6 pretty crappy years and the 1 average year because he has a extra 7 years on his resume and they dont.

 

My arguement here is the same thing as when I argue with people about how they will say Michael Jordon is the greatest player of all times. I don't think he is, and just because alot of people say he is doesn't mean thats the end of the argument.

 

As for his respect in and around the game...so does Bill Walton. And I still don't think he should be in.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Just to add my two cents to this argument, I have the following current guys as mortal, absolute locks for the HOF:

 

Shaq

Tim Duncan

Gary Payton

Kevin Garnett

Allen Iverson

Kobe Bryant

Jason Kidd

 

I think the following guys may have enough to get in eventually, but are going to be harder to assess cases for various reasons:

 

Grant Hill

Tracy McGrady

Paul Pierce

Chris Webber

Vince Carter

Ray Allen

Alonzo Mourning

 

I also sort of wonder about Dikembe Mutombo. Definitely doesn't have the numbers that jump out at you, but you could make the case based on his defense and rebounding. Steve Nash is another one that gives me problems too.

[LivingLegendGaryColeman 0]

I think Nash has to get in at this point. Just winning one MVP award, I would think he has to. I don't think any MVP is not in there. Then he won back to back, and now he is right in contention again.

 

The main thing I question on Tim Hardaway's entry to the Hall of Fame are the current character issues. If I remember right, there was one year when he was on Miami where he was an MVP contendor. But is he going to be hurt by the recent anti-gay remarks though? David Stern pretty much seperated him from all league activity after his radio comments on the Amechi stuff. His shots at becoming a coach are pretty much gone, do you guys think this will effect his HOF standing?

[Ripper 0]

I think Dennis Rodman will be the standard. If he gets in the Hardaway will probably get in. The NBA hates Rodman just as much as they hate Hardaway now.

 

Dennis Rodman is probably the greatest rebounder in the history of the game (yeah...I said it) and didm't make the 50 greatest players. Crazy.

[Guest]

I believe that Bob McAdoo was the only MVP that hadn't got in (or wasn't a lock, like Shaq), but he made the 2000 class.

 

Nash will get in.

[Brett Favre 0]

Plus, if Nash wins MVP this year, he'll have the best nickname ever.

 

MV3.

[Black Lushus 0]

we're honestly questioning whether Nash gets into the Hall or not? seriously??

[Just John 0]

I think the locks are pretty much unanimous.

 

Kobe, AI, Kidd, Duncan, Shaq, and Nash should go in with no questions asked. For those questioning Nash, consider not only his 2 MVPs, but how he was the starting PG for the league's #1 ranked offense six years in a row. The career point and assist averages should also be more than enough.

 

As for iffy guys, I'd vote for:

 

KG - Only knock on him his postseason success, but I think it's unfair to hold a mediocre team against his individual efforts. He's a career 20/10 guy with almost 50% FG shooting. Throw in a block or two a game to add to his defensive credentials, and he's gotta be in.

 

Dikembe - 4 time DPOTY, one of the primeir shot blockers of his era. He also has a surprisingly decent point total for being a primarily defensive player. A solid 10/10 player with insane defensive credentials. No championships, but he does have some of that coveted "postseason validation" with a Finals appearance and an 8 over 1 win in the first round.

 

My jury is still out on Ray Allen, T-Mac, and Vince Carter.

[Ripper 0]

I don't know. If they don't put in Mark Eaton, which they aren't, I don't see why Mutumbo should make it. Of course I guess this is the longevity argument again.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Eaton did win the DPOY of the year award twice, but that's about where the comparisons end with Mutombo. Mutombo was a better defender for longer, was far superior as a rebounder and had a better offensive game around the basket. Eaton went to one All-Star game, whereas Dikembe went to eight, in addition to multiple appearances on the All-NBA team. Dikembe is something of a one-trick pony, but not to the degree that Eaton was. He's also been extremely durable, which is a rarity for men with his size and style of play.

[Ripper 0]

I think you are down playing Eaton a little there. He was a monster Shotblocker adn I think he made 6 or 7 all defensive teams. Those two DPOY awards he won could have easily been 4-5 but we are talking about a era that featured Dennis Rodman, Alvin Robertson Michael Cooper and other moster defensive players. In the 90's it was "should we give it to Dikembe or Alonzo this year?" with Gary Payton there and not many others challenging for the crown.

 

I will say Dikembe was a much better rebounder but I don't think pulling Allstar apperances count either because once again, it was the 80's. There was always Olajawon, Jabbar, Robinson, Ralph Sampson and others hogging the center spot.

Once again, in the 90's in the West or East, there was Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, and Ewing in the entire league for the Center spot.

 

Plus, Eaton was EXTREMELY durable when he played. He was always good for 80-82 games a year, except his last year.

 

But I will concede. Mutumbo was a much better scorer, and rebounder, but really look at it. He barely has more blocks than Eaton and has played 5 more years. Eaton should be in on his defensive stats alone. I mean the guy averaged 3.5 blocks for his career for chist sake.

[Just John 0]

Yeah, the reason I brought up Deke's point average was to show that he was fairly successful offensively, as well as being one of the best defensive players in NBA history. It's like the inverse of saying "Oh, btw, MJ also averaged more than 2 steals a game."

 

I think a better contemperary comparison for Mark Eaton is Ben Wallace.