NBA Roundtable Discussion

[AboveAverage484 0]

If I had to rank their chances, without this season being taken into consideration, it would look like this:

 

1. Shaquille O'Neal

2. Tim Duncan

3. Gary Payton

4. Kevin Garnett

5. Allen Iverson

6. Kobe Bryant

7. Jason Kidd

8. Steve Nash

9. Chris Webber

10. Grant Hill

11. Tracy McGrady

12. Dirk Nowitzki

13. Dikembe Mutombo

14. Ray Allen

15. Vince Carter

16. Alonzo Mourning

17. Paul Pierce

18. Ben Wallace

 

Payton is definitely in; you don't finish in the top 10 in steals ten years in a row by not being able to play defense. As for the comparison between him and KJ and Hardaway (who's essentially guaranteed he's never getting anyway) take a look at the following:

 

Points

1. Payton

2. Hardaway

3. Johnson

 

Rebounds

1. Payton

2. Hardaway

3. Johnson

 

Assists

1. Payton

2. Hardaway

3. Johnson

 

All-NBA Teams

1. Payton

2. Hardaway and Johnson

 

All-Star selections

1. Payton

2. Hardaway

3. Johnson

 

Payton is the only one of the three to make All-Defensive first team, let alone NINE times straight.

 

Scoring average:

 

1. Johnson

2. Hardaway

3. Payton, this is the only category where Payton finishes out of first.

 

Not saying that Johnson and Hardaway weren't great players (they were), but Payton's career resume is overall much more impressive (remember, KJ started getting hurt right at the peak of his career) . If I were to throw Hardaway and KJ onto the list, Timmy would be between Nash and Webber, and KJ probably between Nowitzki and Mutombo.

[Ripper 0]

Once again, here is why I am not caring that Payton wins in those catagories.

 

For EIGHT years out of his SIXTEEN year career he averaged 10 points and 5 assist. Those aren't Hall numbers or even all star numbers.

 

But even with those mediocre to predestrian numbers, they added: 6,854 points and 3,290 assist.

 

Gary Payton has 2242 more Assist than KJ and something like 8 thosand more points. I don't have the time to look up Hardaways, but I guarentee that the points and assist are probably closer.

 

I just don't think that playing 8 subpar years should be the difference maker between hall of fame lock and maybe. KJ and Tim Hardaway(okay...KJ could have kept playing. Nobody wanted TIm) could have kept playing and puting up 10-5 for a few years and would have the same stats as Payton, only they retired when they stopped being relevant to the game. That should not shove Gary to the top of the heap.

 

Thats why I still say, you have to look at the best years, how many there were and what they did in those years. ANd Kevin Johnson and TIm Hardaway both had better numbers than Payton in their good years, both of which lasted about 10 years.

 

Once again, my whole point. If Gary gets in, so should KJ and Tim Hardaway and Mark Price, because they played just as many good years as him, they were better in their good years than he was in his, but they just didn't hang around looking for a ring like he did.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I think you're off on your analysis. Payton had at least ten years where he was above 16 and 6. The majority of those years he was around 20 and 9. Not only were those good enough numbers to be an All-Star, he was All-NBA NINE times during that run. That's unheard of for a point guard.

 

It's really only been the the last two to three years where Payton has fallen off. Those have added to his counting totals, but the majority of work was done during his superb run during the nineties. KJ and Timmay were good players with similar numbers, but you are discounting the the biggest point in GP's favor: his defense. He was an absolute, lock down defender during the nineties. He was the best defensive guard in the league and was a total game changer.

 

I was never a big fan of Payton's but I'm not going to deny that he was one of the best players of his era. There was a couple year run where he would have been considered the best player in the league had MJ not been around. Like Malone, Ewing, Miller and Barkley, he missed out on his ring and glory by playing the same time as Jordan.

[Ripper 0]

I am not denying he was one of the great players of his era too. But I am not off on my analysis. Look at it. He has been pretty much a non factor for the last 4 years and he was a non factor for his first 3 before having a pretty decent year his 4th. Thats half his career. The numbers that put him ahead of Hardaway and Johnson and Price on the all time list are due to him playing longer. Not playing better for a longer time, just playing longer.

 

If payton had retired 4 years ago when he was no long a real factor in the game, his numbers would be no better than Johnsons and Hardaways, and a little worse actually.

 

 

Yes he was a premier defender, but Johnson and Hardaway weren't bad defenders. They were both considered pretty good defenders actually, Payton was just much better. But at the same time Johnson Price and Hardaway were better playmakers and scorers than Payton.

 

And once again, Payton couldn't come close to stopping any of the other great guards in the 90's. THey used to move him to two guards and small forwards because he lacked the lateral quickness to stay with them. but he could lock down bigger players, which is where the GLOVE came from.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Payton has only averaged less than 10 ppg three times in his career and less than 5 assists once. He averaged 19 and 7 for nine years in a row along with his all-NBA selections and All-Defensive selections. The closest Hardaway and KJ came to that was 4 years in a row a piece.

 

Additionally, should Payton be punished for staying around longer and being healthy, as opposed to KJ, who would have more than likely stayed around if he hadn't have been hobbled in the latter part of his career by injury? It would have been likely, had he played, that he would have "deteriorated" at a faster rate than Gary due to his injuries. In conditions like this, I look at it two ways; their career and their peak. Since the three of them were about equal at their peak, career must come into consideration, and Gary has a significant edge over the other two in that area.

[Ripper 0]

Payton has only averaged less than 10 ppg three times in his career and less than 5 assists once. He averaged 19 and 7 for nine years in a row along with his all-NBA selections and All-Defensive selections. The closest Hardaway and KJ came to that was 4 years in a row a piece.

 

Additionally, should Payton be punished for staying around longer and being healthy, as opposed to KJ, who would have more than likely stayed around if he hadn't have been hobbled in the latter part of his career by injury? It would have been likely, had he played, that he would have "deteriorated" at a faster rate than Gary due to his injuries. In conditions like this, I look at it two ways; their career and their peak. Since the three of them were about equal at their peak, career must come into consideration, and Gary has a significant edge over the other two in that area.

 

His numbers for the last 4 years and the first 4 are 10.7 points and 5.15 assist. (I am counting this year in Miami by the way unless someone thinks he is going to get a couple hundred assist in the last 8 games). This is his 17th year. In his 9 good years he averaged 21.3 points and 8.1.

 

Conversely Kevin Johnson averaged 20.0 points a game and 10.0 assist over his 8 good years ( I am taking one off because he only played 48 games that year, leaving him 8 good years.) Also during that time Johnson was averaging 1.63 steals to Gary's 2.11 steals(just saying, Johnson wasn't exactly NoSteals Mcgee out there either)

 

Are the numbers really close? YES. And thats my whole point. I started this by saying, I hate hearing how much of a lock Gary Payton is and he was blah blah blah, but at the same time say that others like Johnson and the similarly stated Mark Price and Tim Hardaway are either not locks or don't belong in the Hall when Payton has done nothing to separate himself from the pack than play 8 mediocre seasons of basketball. Physically, that is great that he stayed in shape, but he wasn't doing anything of substance out there.

 

I am saying either they all belong (which i feel they do) or none of them do (and you can't argue that Gary doesn't belong). But seriously, I don't see how you can say sticking around and putting up Eric Snow numbers should be the difference between calling a guy a Lock for the Hall of Fame or not deserving.

[Guest]

I think a better contemperary comparison for Mark Eaton is Ben Wallace.

I was just going to say that.

[Failed Bridge 0]

random question to Celtics fans and others interested in this kind of thing; Say the Celts aren't in a position where they can draft Oden or Durant come draft day (maybe one stays in college or they get the third pick or some shit). Would you rather trade that pick to a team like Indi for Jermaine O'Neal (and Indi has to take Theo Ratliff to make the money work) or would you take a Brendan Wright or Noah? I'm personally hoping for the best case scenerio where they land Oden in the first round and have Morris Almond fall to their spot in the early second round...but if that doesn't happen I don't know which of the above I'd choose.

 

I know that the trade would be there though as Jermaine evidently wants out of Indi according to Boston area sports outlets and Indi has no first round pick this season and could be looking at rebuilding.

[Ripper 0]

While I know that Oden is supposed to be the future and all, Al Jefferson really does seem like he can be a franchise player on the low block at the PF position. You don't really need a two post up players that need the ball on the block. They would be better served getting a shotblockers, rebounder that doesn't really need the ball. They can trade up and get a guy like Hibbert, and get something really good for one of those top picks if they have it.

[Ripper 0]

I think a better contemperary comparison for Mark Eaton is Ben Wallace.

I was just going to say that.

 

Yeah, I will go with that too.

[Failed Bridge 0]

I would think Oden would play the Center position with Big Al being the power forward. Oden seems to be a very good rebounder and blocker as well...Hibbert's big knock is that he appears to be real slow, and the Celts want to be a fast break team. Hibbert would be gassed by the end of the first quarter every evening.

 

Hibbert would however fit the Spurs something great.

 

I've also heard that since Billy Donovan is staying at Florida the juniors are thinking of coming back and going for a three-peat. So people may have to take Noah, Brewer, Halford, and Greene out of their draft plans.

[Matt Young 0]

I would think Oden would play the Center position with Big Al being the power forward. Oden seems to be a very good rebounder and blocker as well...Hibbert's big knock is that he appears to be real slow, and the Celts want to be a fast break team. Hibbert would be gassed by the end of the first quarter every evening.

 

Hibbert would however fit the Spurs something great.

 

I've also heard that since Billy Donovan is staying at Florida the juniors are thinking of coming back and going for a three-peat. So people may have to take Noah, Brewer, Halford, and Greene out of their draft plans.

 

Nope. In the same press conforence where Donovan announced that he would return, the three juniors all said they would not be back.

[Failed Bridge 0]

really? I'm just going by what my father told me he heard on the news when I got out of work.

 

I think both Noah and Greene should stay in school. Noah's draft stock fell this year and Greene would be better served with one more year under his belt as well. Horford and Brewer are set though...Brewer actually reminds me alot of Paul Pierce.

[Just John 0]

I always thought Brewer had the most NBA potential on that team. Right now, he reminds me of Shawn Marion, though with his skill set, he could evolve into the complete wing player like Kobe or T-Mac. I hope he gets picked up by a team on the rise.

[Brett Favre 0]

Brewer reminds me of Gerald Wallace/Josh Howard.

 

Horford reminds me of Elton Brand. Noah is like Camby, and Green does need another year.

[Ripper 0]

I would think Oden would play the Center position with Big Al being the power forward. Oden seems to be a very good rebounder and blocker as well...Hibbert's big knock is that he appears to be real slow, and the Celts want to be a fast break team. Hibbert would be gassed by the end of the first quarter every evening.

 

Hibbert would however fit the Spurs something great.

 

I've also heard that since Billy Donovan is staying at Florida the juniors are thinking of coming back and going for a three-peat. So people may have to take Noah, Brewer, Halford, and Greene out of their draft plans.

 

 

Watching the Celtics play, it looks like they want to be a grind it down in the half court type of team. If they wanted to run, Telfair should be getting more playing time, because despite his sucking the big one in half court sets, he is one of the better open court guards in the league.

 

I think Hibbert is slow, but he doesn't lack a good gas tank and he is pretty athletic. He just isn't that touch the top of the back board come flying from all over the court athlete.

[Guest]

Luke Walton is dating Britney Spears.

 

....

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Oh god, to be at the same dinner table as Britney and Bill Walton. I can't even hypothesize what that would look like.

[Failed Bridge 0]

I like to think that Bill's words of advice to his son on sex have and always will be "Throw it down big man!".

[Black Lushus 0]

I just want to once again state how ashamed I am of being a Knicks fan. Man, the 90s seem like a distant memory anymore.

[Ripper 0]

I just want to once again state how ashamed I am of being a Knicks fan. Man, the 90s seem like a distant memory anymore.

No need to be ashamed this year. They would be in the playoffs right now if the injury bug hadn't hit them, raped them, inpregnated them and then its hatchlings had their way with them too.

[Black Lushus 0]

well that was more in reference to their recent crap in Chicago...and even though the Bulls were jacking up the score, so what? learn how to play some fucking defense.

 

Nate Robinson can go away, as far as I'm concerned.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The Knicks handled it wrong. Bulls only scored 20 in the 4th and did not score in the final 1 minute and 40 seconds.

[Ripper 0]

I think it was the coaches calling for them(the bulls) to push the pace at with the game way out of hand. They weren't slightly hiding that they were trying to run up the score.

 

It is pretty disrespectful though. you just don't do that. I understand it was for the crowd to get free big macs and all, but at least let the other team know what you are doing. Running a full court press and pushing the pace when you are ahead by more that 20 point is just a little distasteful unless properly explained.

 

Then again, they do have a asshole for a coach so what do you expect.

 

Ripper - Insults Scott Skiles whenever he gets a chance...fuck that guy.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The Knicks knew that the Bulls were playing for the Big Macs. They were just upset the score wasn't 100-99 or something and had to whine about everything and anything, in this case "running up the score".

[Black Lushus 0]

that's what I'm saying, fuck my team.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

That's ballsy.

 

Chad Ford: (12:39 PM ET ) Personally ... I believe Durant has a chance to be better than all of those guys. If all of those guys were in the draft today ... here's how I'd rank them from a potential standpoint ...

 

1. Durant

2. Wade

3. LeBron

4. Oden

5. Howard

6. Bosh

7. Carmelo

[Ripper 0]

Chris Ford is out of his fucking mind. I like Durant...I really do. But he is a more agressive Marvin Williams. And nothing about that says take him over Lebron, Wade or Bosh (you can argue Carmelo or Oden I guess)

[bobobrazil1984 0]

A center like Oden comes along... once or twice a decade. The last one was, what, Yao? and even he isn't as dominant as he could be (I do like Yao though so dont think me a hater, he's been awesome this season when playing).

 

You can build a title team around a center like Oden. Other than, say, Houston, no team out there should pass up on him.

 

edit: whoops i read that article wrong - thought it was a mock draft for this year and he's saying durant will go 1.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Chris Ford is out of his fucking mind. I like Durant...I really do. But he is a more agressive Marvin Williams. And nothing about that says take him over Lebron, Wade or Bosh (you can argue Carmelo or Oden I guess)

 

I think it's a real stretch to compare Marvin Williams to Kevin Durant. They may have a similar style, but as freshman Williams barely cracked Carolina's rotation whereas Durant was easily the best player in the nation. Part of the equation may be potential, but the majority is what you do with it. Durant has all the makings of an elite player.