The border war...

[Dobbs 3K 0]

snuffbox, you need to drop the whole "Yeah, let's get rid of the non-whites" thing. That's not what this debate is about and you damn well know it.

[snuffbox 0]

And I just explained why the Mexicans are taking a vastly smaller number of jobs than we are sending away. By shipping the Mexicans out we are guranteed large price increases in many items we take for granted each day.

 

So, the problem isn't jobs. And, little as Oreilly may like it, they are no less dangerous than anyone else in the country. So, what is the issue here? I see blatant racism and nothing else.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The problem is that it is unregulated and unchecked. I don't have a problem with Mexican people doing manual labor here. The problem is that there's no good system right now tracking them.

 

FWIW, I think the new proposed bill could work. I don't like all of it, but at least it's something, rather than what we have now.

[Ripper 0]

I have to agree with snuffbox on this one. When it all comes down to you, people are up in arms about poor people working low paying jobs to feed their families. That is the law they want to crack down on.

 

And people that think day workers are working for a dollar a hour are, lets just say misinformed. They are working for less, true, but comeon dude.

 

The fact of the matter is that the illegal immigrants give this nation billions of dollars of tax dollars that never has to be paid back, billions of dollars in housing, transportation cost(fuel and such) food and clothing. But THIS is the thing that so many people are so up in arms about.

 

I don't know, but I think there are plenty of other laws that need to have focused attention upon them. Call me crazy.

[EricMM 0]

People are really made that people come here and have kids and get on Soc. Security and Medicaid or whatever. At least that's what people bitch about at my job...

 

I think they would like them to work hard here, and then not go to hospitals or anything like that. Just, if they get sick, crawl off and die somewhere. Give w/out taking.

[Ripper 0]

If anything they are keeping social secruity alive by putting all that money into it and not collecting on it ever. They have kids, those kids are citizens simple as that and should be allowed all the freedoms that any other citizen has.

[NoCalMike 0]

The difference is that the millions of jobs sent outside the country are $10+-an-hour factory jobs that American want/need. The jobs that Mexicans are often taking when they come here are lower-paying menial jobs & bottom-end factory jobs. By continuing to outsource we will continue to lose a large amount of actual jobs Americans were in fact using, by getting rid of the Mexicans we will only damage the economy because the price on so many goods we take for granted will skyrocket.

 

But at least America will be more white.

 

Right but here is what happens as well. When you outsource jobs that occupy the middle class, they end up having to compete for those lower-end jobs that now are being taken by illegals because they are willing to work off the books for less money. Also, these people are not paying into Social Security and other programs that are counted on by our taxes. Not that I am blaming the immigrants themselves, it is a problem with the businesses willing to do this to save a buck. This is also another reason why "the economy is rolling" is another line of bullshit, because the economy is only rolling for the Top 2% that are reaping the awards of low-wage workers that went from making 40-50k, to now making 20-30k. When someone loses a good job, but a month later gets hired at Wal-Mart as a cashier, that still gets counted, as if that medial income is somehow making up for the previous salary.

 

If you think this isn't an issue, then just wait for Bush, before he leaves office, to approve of Mexican trucks having free access to our roads without having to abide by safety and/or enviornmental regulations. You will see our trucking industry dissapear faster then our auto industry.

[NoCalMike 0]

I have to agree with snuffbox on this one. When it all comes down to you, people are up in arms about poor people working low paying jobs to feed their families. That is the law they want to crack down on.

 

And people that think day workers are working for a dollar a hour are, lets just say misinformed. They are working for less, true, but comeon dude.

 

The fact of the matter is that the illegal immigrants give this nation billions of dollars of tax dollars that never has to be paid back, billions of dollars in housing, transportation cost(fuel and such) food and clothing. But THIS is the thing that so many people are so up in arms about.

 

I don't know, but I think there are plenty of other laws that need to have focused attention upon them. Call me crazy.

 

Like.....?

 

I think the actual problem if you want my honest opinion, is that immigration laws in general, just aren't enforced. Right now, too many people/companies benefit and those benefits are enough to outweight the very real problems, unchecked and unregulated immigration present. I guess the meat of the issue will continue to be one of those cases where, more laws aren't needed, but the existing laws need to be enforced. Every time someone has a problem with illegal immigration, they need to be able to make a valid point, and not be shouted down as "hating brown people"

 

I live in CA, Mexican culture is engrained in my everyday life. Everytime I leave my house I am emersed in it. Do I care? No. Am I offended? No. Do I enjoy a lot of what it has to offer? Hell Yes. However, Is that a completely seperate issue than Illegal Immigration? Yes.

[The Niggardly King 0]

They're going to ruin my generation...

[snuffbox 0]

Your reasoning/conspiracy theories never ceases to amuse, NoCalMike.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

OK, snuffbox, let's turn the tables here for just a minute. Why are you so seemingly in favor of illegal immigration? Don't you see any negative consequences of it at all?

[snuffbox 0]

Yes, when you can't come up with a legitimate reason for your vitriol towards Hispanics it is prudent to 'turn the tables' and ask a question rather than answer the one presented to you.

 

But, since I actually have beliefs & ideals in things rather than just caveman-esque hate towards certain groups of people, I can answer your question. Honestly, no. I don't have a problem with people coming to this country. If people didn't come to America, there would be no America. We can't, as the long-established heirs of immigration, continue to simply decide upon ourselves that we are the true & righful Americans. The Natives came here first and built an 'America' in their own visions with their own customs. White immigrants to the 'New World' conquered their land. The common talking point now amongst the anti-Mexican bloc when faced with that historical reality is that it's "in the past/white-guilt should be over", and it is the same talking point when it comes to civil rights for black people. In the early years of the twentieth century there was a push to eliminate the emigration of certain people from Europe as led by Henry Cabot Lodge Sr. Unfortunately the fight against such laws was lacking in passion (among the more vocal supporters of continued immigration rights was James Michael Curley, a man far too notorious to carry water for any good causes) and they were able to be passed. America has a long and pathetic history of creating its own bogeymen to drum up the primal fear of the simpleminded. The Italians, the Irish, women, Jews, the Natives, the Blacks, the list is exhaustive and is now represented by Hispanics. The leaders of this 'cause', a 'war' that blinds us all from legitmate concerns and actual problems, is led by narrowthinking goons and drooling troglodytes like Glen Beck and Bill O Reilly. It is bred by insecurity in America's ability to live up to its ideals and basis as a melting-pot and a land of freedom. It is entirely lacking in courage and baseless in merit. If jobs were the problem the focus would/should be outsourcing and poor business management. If the problem was crime then the focus should/would be on far more pressing matters that can realistically be solved. If the problem was national security the focus would/should be on how to reverse the problems caused and exacerbated by the Bush Administration's policy pratfalls. As the list of 'concerns' dwindles in the face of facts and far more pressing issues we see this 'issue', this 'war', at its dark core. Pandering to fear out of want for personal supremacy over others & thinly-veiled racism.

 

What do I propose? We don't waste billions on walls and mass deportations and the like. We focus our funds and our attention on real problems, on real national security threats, on actual concerns for our economic outlook. A patriotic ideal should be the desire to remove the heavy cloak of self-created bogeymen, not too spend even more needless piles of cash to further our descent into paranoia and embarassment.

[Ripper 0]

Yeah. What he said.

 

 

And Nomikecal, alot of what you are saying is just plain made up. It is crazy to believe that most of the illegals working here aren't contributing to taxes and social security especiall with all this free money the goverment is getting to prove otherwise. Illegals aren't working at walmart for .50 cent a hour. They are making minimum wage with the social security numbers of dead people. Taxes DO come out of those paychecks and the illegals are NEVER able to collect on said taxes coming out. This is fact.

 

What other laws could be focused on? You are kidding right? The best use of the law enforcement we have is to take down those poor people feeding their families? Once again, this is the crime that is taking place. Poor people feeding their families. Is it illegal? Yeah. Could time be better served on something else.

 

Plus it simply doesn't make sense. Outsourcing, something supported by the same goverment that is crying about immigration now, removes American jobs without our economy reaping the benefits. Illegal Immigration is a form of outsourcing where our economy reaps the benefits. This is what you guys are so up in arms about.

 

I think it is going to take some real convicing for me to see the bad part about immigration. And it's going to take more than "dey tuk ar jobs" because that is complete and utter bullshit.

[EricMM 0]

Try explaining that to a xenophobe.

 

Anyways, they're more concerned with closing hospitals "due to illegal immigrants"

 

Nevermind an overly litigous society, nevermind that just as many people without insurance ARE native born Americans...

[SamoaRowe 0]

I agree that racism towards Mexicans is a part of this. To steal a line from The Lionel Show, there would be no one bitching if it was Swedish bikini models sneaking in.

[NoCalMike 0]

Yeah. What he said.

 

 

And Nomikecal, alot of what you are saying is just plain made up. It is crazy to believe that most of the illegals working here aren't contributing to taxes and social security especiall with all this free money the goverment is getting to prove otherwise. Illegals aren't working at walmart for .50 cent a hour. They are making minimum wage with the social security numbers of dead people. Taxes DO come out of those paychecks and the illegals are NEVER able to collect on said taxes coming out. This is fact.

What other laws could be focused on? You are kidding right? The best use of the law enforcement we have is to take down those poor people feeding their families? Once again, this is the crime that is taking place. Poor people feeding their families. Is it illegal? Yeah. Could time be better served on something else.

 

Plus it simply doesn't make sense. Outsourcing, something supported by the same goverment that is crying about immigration now, removes American jobs without our economy reaping the benefits. Illegal Immigration is a form of outsourcing where our economy reaps the benefits. This is what you guys are so up in arms about.

 

I think it is going to take some real convicing for me to see the bad part about immigration. And it's going to take more than "dey tuk ar jobs" because that is complete and utter bullshit.

 

Ok so what are you saying, that you support the exploitation of immigrants? If they indeed come in here legally they would in fact be collecting social security.

 

I am not anti-immigration. We do need a certain amount of it. However we need to let the labor market dictate what we can handle. I just want to know, from the people that are pro-illegal immigration, if they think ANYTHING about immigration should be monitored/regulated?

 

Should we even have laws about people coming across the border at all? Or should it just be a free for all?

 

I am trying to find a middle-ground but the problem I have encountered, is the pro-illegal immigration side, seem to say the word "reform" when once you get them to be honest, what they really are saying is that they think anyone should just be allowed to come over the border at any time. If that is the case, then just say so, and say you want immigration laws off the books. Just don't be intellectually dishonest about the issue.

 

If you want to better understand my stance on this issue in more detail, read the article found here: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm and here

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm , oh and here http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0308-20.htm

[Guest George's Box]

I live in CA, Mexican culture is engrained in my everyday life. Everytime I leave my house I am emersed in it. Do I care? No. Am I offended? No. Do I enjoy a lot of what it has to offer? Hell Yes. However, Is that a completely seperate issue than Illegal Immigration? Yes.

Try emersing and engraining yourself in the seperate world of spelling like a competent anglophone.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

snuffbox, there must be something in the water over in the People's Republic that makes you so blind to all the reasons that have already been brought up.

 

The number one issue I've brought up, time and agin, which gets completely IGNORED over and over...is that it's not just Mexicans coming across that border. There's been evidence presented that Arabs and others are coming across the as well. You mentioned national security as a real concern. Do you think it's just good honest folk looking for work, who are coming across the Rio Grande? What about drug trafficking? Yeah, I think our government wastes too much money on the War on Drugs as well, but do we need to make it easier for drug runners to get into the US?

 

I have nothing against Mexican people coming here to work. I certainly don't have any interest in picking beans or trimming people's hedges. However, our government has every right to know why foreign people are here, and who they are. I am no racist, as much as you would like to paint me as one. Yes, our country has been built by immigration. By and large, though, it was legal, controlled immigration. Why should we abandon that system now?

 

What about the people who actually live in towns affected by immigration? I know we're supposed to be accepting of everyone and not risk offending people, but there have been plenty of news stories about illegal immigrants creating strains on medical and educational resources. My wife actually worked recently at a high school in a town that has seen a huge increase in the Hispanic population. This same school is seeing a large increase in Hispanic gang activity. But, I guess the fact that I'm pointing this out makes me a jingoistic racist, and I'll no doubt be digging out my Klansman robes for a cross burning, any minute now. Yes, all schools have to deal with gang violence to some degree, but you can't ignore the correlation completely. It's a real problem for many communities.

[EricMM 0]

So then have free immigration.

 

This is definitely a race thing.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

It's going to take more than two insipid sentences, falling back on the same tired knee jerk reactions, to counter my argument.

[Ripper 0]

So to fight drug trafficing and terroism, they are raiding chicken plants to deport the people working there. Really? Because drug dealers gut chickens for minimum wage on the side. If it were about national security, they wouldn't be wasting resources on these workers. Its about getting rid of all the Mexicans.

 

Invader....that was the dumbest thing I have ever read(okay, thats an exaggeration). You mean that more hispanics meant more Hispanic gangs? REALLY??? I would think that there were plenty of hispanic gangs when there weren't any Hispanics there. I heard that in this town with mostly a white population they have a real white gang problem there. There has to be a correlation. Like you said, all schools have to deal with gang violence in some degree. So why are you bitching about Hispanic gangs?

 

And NoCalMike, how long exactly do you think it takes to become a American citizen?

[NoCalMike 0]

And NoCalMike, how long exactly do you think it takes to become a American citizen?

 

Too long, which is another thing about this immigration bill that sucks. If you're asking me if there should be a faster path to citizenship, then I would agree.

[Guest]

I certainly don't have any interest in picking beans or trimming people's hedges. However, our government has every right to know why foreign people are here, and who they are.

In a post about illegal immigration from Mexico, you just said something about picking beans. Wow.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Well, they pick produce. What the fuck. Someone has to. Drive through Arizona and point out the white people doing crop labor like that, please.

[Guest]

Well, Mexicans pick a lot of things besides beans, that's why I found it odd that the guy decided to use "picking beans" as his best example for things that Mexican immigrants do.

 

At least say they pick strawberries or something, but something as blatantly stereotypical as saying that Mexicans pick beans just makes me forget about him saying that he's not a racist and flushing that shit down the toilet. And no, I am not offended. Just found it odd, is all.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

So to fight drug trafficing and terroism, they are raiding chicken plants to deport the people working there. Really? Because drug dealers gut chickens for minimum wage on the side. If it were about national security, they wouldn't be wasting resources on these workers. Its about getting rid of all the Mexicans.

 

Only the ones that have no legal right to be here. They should do the same thing to...who the hell else emigrates here illegally in THOSE numbers? Russians? Polish? Fuckin' get rid of them too.

 

You mean that more hispanics meant more Hispanic gangs? REALLY??? I would think that there were plenty of hispanic gangs when there weren't any Hispanics there. I heard that in this town with mostly a white population they have a real white gang problem there. There has to be a correlation. Like you said, all schools have to deal with gang violence in some degree. So why are you bitching about Hispanic gangs?

 

Probably because the Latin Kings are WAY more widespread and violent now than dumb rednecks in sheets or Prison Nazis.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Is it really going to take someone coming across the border and taking your personal identity information to make this problem seem relevant? This is different than scores of Irish or Italians or Cubans or Jews coming here. It's a different world, and apples and oranges in terms of a comparison. Those groups were fleeing starvation and political persecution. Mexico isn't run by a cutthroat dictator and they're not starving by the tens of thousands. As for Ripper's point about money staying here, that's hogwash when there's a line of Mexicans fifteen people deep on payday for money orders at Wal Mart to send cash back home to their relatives. Sure Uncle Sam might be keeping its piece of the pie, but it's not hard to see that much of what they earn is NOT staying in this country. How many illegal immigrants that commit rapes and murders here are double-fucking us in an already awful and over-crowded prison system?

 

It's bullshit that the corrupt corporate giants in this company want to exploit both immigrants and a dumber than hell government for the sake of their bottom line. It's bullshit that the sovereignty of this country is flushed down the shitter with every single person that hops over a porous and undefended border. It's bullshit that this country, this government, and this economic situation willing lies on its back and grits its teeth while we get screwed.

[Ripper 0]

How can you call literal fact hogwash? Illegals are paying for housing. There is no debating that. They are paying for food. No debating that. They are paying for gas, clothing, entertainment. You are calling it hogwash because they are sending some money back to their families at home. I guess I am not helping the economy because I have a savings account. And once again, BILLIONS of tax dollars are coming from the illegals also. The economy is not being screwed by illegals. 4-5 times more jobs are lost to outsourcing, a MUCH cheaper alternative to the big coorperations and no reprecussions to it. But its more fun to point out the hispanics that you can see and say they are what is wrong with the economy.

 

You want to point at the illegals in the prison system. And to combat that SMALL percentage, almost non existant, you say lets spend BILLIONS of dollars to deport a bunch of hard working poor people. That will save us like a couple of hundred thousand dollars on those prisoners! And it only cost us a few billion dollars to do!

 

Once again, if one person was making an argument saying we need to make sure that drugs aren't getting across the border, fine. But raiding places and getting rid of the poor people that are working there whose only crime is that they haven't gotten into the ridcilously over complicated citizenship procedures...thats not looking into national security or safety. To quote Charles Barkley of all people, "Rich people do a great job at making poor people fight each other." How anyone can not respect anyone doing honest work to feed their family is beyond me. Especially when it is coming from a bunch of people who didn't do a goddamned thing to "earn" the same rights they are trying to take away from these people. So your mom squeezed you out a few thousand miles north of where someone else is born. Whoopity. Someone and their family should starve because their mom was a few thousand miles south. At a certain point it becomes a question of common decency. Too many people lack it and have let the droves of impovrished men women and children become nothing more than a political talking point.

 

The Mexican president should just declare his country communist. Then they can all come searching for asylum.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I certainly don't have any interest in picking beans or trimming people's hedges. However, our government has every right to know why foreign people are here, and who they are.

In a post about illegal immigration from Mexico, you just said something about picking beans. Wow.

 

Would you rather I had said "oranges?"

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

This is different than scores of Irish or Italians or Cubans or Jews coming here. It's a different world, and apples and oranges in terms of a comparison. Those groups were fleeing starvation and political persecution. Mexico isn't run by a cutthroat dictator and they're not starving by the tens of thousands.

 

You're acting as if, historically, the majority of immigrants didn't come here for economic benefit. The people at Ellis Island definitely weren't all political refugees and weren't all fleeing dictatorships. Plus, the economic & political situation in Mexico & Central America isn't exactly wine & roses.

 

Two more general points:

 

1.) Most economists agree that immigration is a net benefit to the economy.

 

2.) Immigrant populations have a lower crime rate than the general population.