Let's talk about John Cena.

[Mad Scientist 0]

First of all, Cena doesn't need to be booked like a monster. He's booked to where he always steps up his game for big matches and digs down deep to pull out the win. He has more of a Misawa-like invincibility aura than a Hogan one. It's still a very effective way to book someone.

 

Cena matches typically go like this: (1) Cena gets pummelled, tossed around, and generally whipped from pillar to post for 90% of the match; (2) Cena "hulks it up" and makes a comeback; (3) FU/STFU is applied; and (4) Opponent is pinned/taps out.

 

This is ridiculous. The Khali ppv matches are the only ones I think come close to fitting this description, though that's generally what you see from any monster/normal guy match. The Umaga matches don't even fit this. At the Rumble, Cena was getting dominated a lot, but the idea was him avoiding all the death spots to keep him in the match until he could finally choke Umaga out. At NYR, he got dominated, but there was no "hulking up," rather a simple survival roll-up. The HHH, Edge, and Michaels matches were all evenly built back-and-forth kind of stuff. The RVD match was actually mostly Cena because he was the heel. I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea all of Cena's matches are the same, because they aren't.

 

I said a typical Cena match goes like that, not all of them. Typical does not mean all. But yes, lately that has been the program...he faces a heel, he gets in a little offense early on, the heel dominates for a large chunk of the time, then Cena goes for a comeback and gets a win. All his matches certainly aren't like that, it's just that such matches are his typical ones. Even Hogan didn't have the same match all the time, but most of his matches follow the program mentioned above. Cena is being booked exactly like Hogan. That says nothing about Cena's in-ring ability or his overness, it's just a fact of his booking so far. I didn't say the booking was ineffective; it works on a lot of the WWE fan demographic. I just find it makes things exceptionally boring in the RAW main event scene. If you enjoy that sort of booking, then I'm happy for you. I don't enjoy the booking, as it destroys the credibility of any existing heels on RAW, and leaves us with a big swath of face-v-face matches, which are rarely worth watching IMHO. Lashley versus Cena is not what I'd consider a great match waiting to happen. I hope they'll prove me wrong on this one, as it's going to be headlining a PPV, but I have no faith that these two can pull it off.

 

 

 

[Jingus 0]

I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea all of Cena's matches are the same, because they aren't.

He changes up the formula for the big matches on PPV, sure. (Though I would argue that his Mania match against HHH was about as plodding and generic as you can get.) But on your average Raw? When does he ever do anything different? Comes out to the ring, beats on the heel, heel cuts him off, beats on him for a minute, Cena hulks up, hits the 5 Knuckle Airball, heel cuts him back off, heel tries to hit his finisher, Cena gets an FU outta nowhere, crappily applied STFU, tappity tap tap. It rarely changes, and it bores me to fuckin' death every single time.

[Just John 0]

Ok, what wrestler doesn't have a generic base formula for 5-10 minute tv match? You could simplify about every wrestler on the roster in the same derogatory fashion you used on Cena.

 

Finlay: Pointless chain wrestling, opponent builds momentum, gets cut off with a stiff left-arm clothesline, resthold, tease comeback, Hornswaggle spot, resthold, real comeback, distract ref, shillealagh causes DQ/cheap pin

 

Rey Mysterio: Uses quickness to make opponent look dumb usually including a 619 tease, gets caught with a power move, beatdown, comeback that always includes the seated senton and that silly-looking handspring bulldog, 619 with awkward setup, drop the dime, pin.

 

CM Punk: Pointless mat wrestling and strike teases, opponent catches him for a beatdown, fight back with the knee-bulldog combo and some poor-man's KENTA offense, tease finisher exchange, catch out of nowhere with the fireman's carry into the G2S.

 

And so on... I mean, you admit Cena mixes up his ppv stuff, and spot some good tv matches like the Nitro and Michaels matches, what else do you want? Name some WWE guys that have substantially more variety than Cena.

[Mad Scientist 0]

Ok, what wrestler doesn't have a generic base formula for 5-10 minute tv match? You could simplify about every wrestler on the roster in the same derogatory fashion you used on Cena.

 

Finlay: Pointless chain wrestling, opponent builds momentum, gets cut off with a stiff left-arm clothesline, resthold, tease comeback, Hornswaggle spot, resthold, real comeback, distract ref, shillealagh causes DQ/cheap pin

 

Rey Mysterio: Uses quickness to make opponent look dumb usually including a 619 tease, gets caught with a power move, beatdown, comeback that always includes the seated senton and that silly-looking handspring bulldog, 619 with awkward setup, drop the dime, pin.

 

CM Punk: Pointless mat wrestling and strike teases, opponent catches him for a beatdown, fight back with the knee-bulldog combo and some poor-man's KENTA offense, tease finisher exchange, catch out of nowhere with the fireman's carry into the G2S.

 

And so on... I mean, you admit Cena mixes up his ppv stuff, and spot some good tv matches like the Nitro and Michaels matches, what else do you want? Name some WWE guys that have substantially more variety than Cena.

 

I'll point out that in each of the above, you have a generic moveset allusion...chain wrestling by Finlay, quickness by Mysterio, mat wrestling by Punk. You don't know what moves they're actually going to do, and thus there is room for a surprise as far as the sequencing and use of the signature moves or spots for the above guys. This illuminates Cena's weakness, IMHO. He doesn't have a lot to mix into his matches.

 

Cena's move list is punch, stomp, kick, shoulderblock/clothesline, 5 Knuckle Shuffle, maybe a verticle suplex vs. a little guy, maybe a body slam with a big guy, FU, STFU. I don't mind anyone hitting their signatures to pop the crowd; that's what a TV match is about (and PPV as well, to a certain extent). The Five Moves of Death deal does get boring, however. It got boring with Bret Hart too. My problem with this is that Cena is the flagship for the entire company right now, and I believe it is perfectly legitimate to expect a bit more than that. Again, this is not to cast aspersions on his ability to put on a good match when the need arises, but I think that when you see some guys lower down the totem pole kayfabe-wise that put on consistently better matches, this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Will it be addressed? Not as long as the current program makes money, as far as I can see.

 

Cena has the potential to do a lot more, and he did do more when he first appeared on WWE TV; his first TV match on the Angle Invitational showed him mat wrestling with Angle, and Kurt sneaking a victory with his chickenwing cradle rollup. Now, I believe because of booking and PR, he is stuck in a rut. That's the most disappointing thing about the situation to me is that getting to the top has choked out what could have been and might still be a really great wrestler who also has excellent mike skills when he's allowed to use them.

 

[Just John 0]

Cena also regularly uses the top-rope leg drop and throwback, but I'm sure if you go match by match over the last year, he's not restricted to the moveset you just described.

 

His wrestling is similar to that of The Rock. People used to shit all over Rocky's work back in 2000 or so, saying he does too many punches, the people's elbow is terrible move, and so on. However, despite not choosing to use a broad moveset, he was still one of the best wrestlers of that time because there's more to working a match than just hitting moves. Timing, selling, keeping the crowd involved, etc... Both guys were/are great at these things. The thing most people forget about "limited movesets" is that the overness of a move goes a long way to making it credible. Cena gets a bigger pop when he sets up for the FU than Shelton Benjamin does flying off a ladder. Rock's punches got more heat than Jeff Hardy's flipping moves back in the day.

 

And other than Matt Hardy, I'm at a loss as to which midcarders have been having more consistent quality matches than Cena this year.

[Jingus 0]

But they'll use different moves, dammit! Not just punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH for-goddamn-ever, and maybe throw in a verticle suplay if we're lucky. I didn't like it when Hogan did it, I didn't like it when Bruno did it, I didn't like it when Bret got lazy and did it, I didn't like it when Austin and Rock did it, and I sure as hell don't like it when Cena does it.

 

Yeah, they make the crowd pop. So do gay-bashing jokes. I couldn't give a fuck less.

[hyperchord24 0]

Vince likes it when you work the same moves into a match because he thinks it pops the crowd more than doing something inovative.

 

Remember Bret Hart's 5 moves of doom? And Bret was far more watchable.

[Mad Scientist 0]

Cena also regularly uses the top-rope leg drop and throwback, but I'm sure if you go match by match over the last year, he's not restricted to the moveset you just described.

 

His wrestling is similar to that of The Rock. People used to shit all over Rocky's work back in 2000 or so, saying he does too many punches, the people's elbow is terrible move, and so on. However, despite not choosing to use a broad moveset, he was still one of the best wrestlers of that time because there's more to working a match than just hitting moves. Timing, selling, keeping the crowd involved, etc... Both guys were/are great at these things. The thing most people forget about "limited movesets" is that the overness of a move goes a long way to making it credible. Cena gets a bigger pop when he sets up for the FU than Shelton Benjamin does flying off a ladder. Rock's punches got more heat than Jeff Hardy's flipping moves back in the day.

 

And other than Matt Hardy, I'm at a loss as to which midcarders have been having more consistent quality matches than Cena this year.

 

Matt Hardy, Finlay, Kennedy, and MVP are putting on a lot of good matches, most of which are consistently better than Cena's TV matches. I hate that they've booked Finlay with the shilleleigh and Li'l Bastard/Hornswoggle as a crutch, but that's doesn't reflect on Finlay's ability so much as his lack of main event charisma. Punk was putting on some good matches with Burke and Corvon, until those two dropped off TV. On RAW, Cena was admittedly doing more than a lot of the roster until very recently.

 

Getting over with anything is more a function of charisma and booking than wrestling ability. The Rock and Austin could pop a crowd with a Backdrop or a Thesz Press, two very basic moves. You're absolutely right that neither really presented a varied or interesting moveset, and that was a flaw in their matches as well. Their sheer charisma got them past it. Being "over" does not make a move "credible." Making Scotty 2 Hotty a tag champion never, ever made "The Worm" a credible move. Some things are just too silly. Did the People's Elbow or the Thesz Press pop the crowd? Always. Were they "credible" in terms of being apparently dangerous or spectacular moves? No.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot more than moves to a wrestling match. John Cena, most of the time, does understand those other aspects and works hard to put on a good match. As did The Rock and Austin. However, he is limited in the moves he performs, although he could easily change that if he were allowed to do so. I will happily add that rolling neckbreaker and a leg drop to his moveset. However, he is still mostly punch, punch, punch. Does he get pops doing things that way? Yes. Is it still boring as hell to watch most of the time? Yep. Right now, Cena is not exhibiting enough charisma to pull me into that sort of match. Rock and Austin in their day could make a good match on charisma alone. Not so with Cena, at least not yet.

 

But they'll use different moves, dammit! Not just punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH for-goddamn-ever, and maybe throw in a verticle suplay if we're lucky. I didn't like it when Hogan did it, I didn't like it when Bruno did it, I didn't like it when Bret got lazy and did it, I didn't like it when Austin and Rock did it, and I sure as hell don't like it when Cena does it.

 

Yeah, they make the crowd pop. So do gay-bashing jokes. I couldn't give a fuck less.

 

Agreed; popping is not all there is to a match or a promo. Mick Foley's cheap pop gimmick gets the pop, but it still sucks.

 

Vince likes it when you work the same moves into a match because he thinks it pops the crowd more than doing something inovative.

 

Remember Bret Hart's 5 moves of doom? And Bret was far more watchable.

 

I didn't like Bret's 5 Moves of Death either. Same problem. Someone who could do more and better either gets lazy in the ring or is forced into a rut for booking or crowd-popping.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Without reading anything posted before this aside from the initial post, my problems with Cena are as follows (and are likely shared by the majority of people that dislike him):

 

-His gimmick. It started off the right way: he was a complete and utter poseur. He did the rap, he did slowed-down battles so that fans unfamiliar with hip hop and battle-raps could keep up, but the fans saw him as a suburban white boy trying to pass himself off as a hardcore thug. Now it's the complete opposite of what it was meant to be: he's being taken serious. Sorry, but in order for ANY white person to be taken seriously as a hip hop act is to not only be good, but to not be fake and actually rap about what they know. Why should I believe that Cena is from the streets? Why should I believe that he's hardcore? This isn't even because I'm a metalhead, it's just a lame gimmick. If they were serious at all about pushing an "urban" gimmick, they'd hire Ron Killings, who not only LOOKS like a thug, but I'm willing to bet was at one point in his life.

 

-His matches. I found HBK/Cena from WM23 to be fucking awful, and not all of this can be placed on Cena. A lot of it I'm aiming at HBK, but Cena was no help at all. The entire story of the match was that HBK was DESTROYING Cena's leg. Now, while the legwork was a bit boring (okay, I get it, you stomp on it a lot, cool), which is HBK's fault, the miraculous comeback where all of the legwork was forgotten didn't make sense to me. Even a shaking of the leg when Cena had Michaels up for the FU, which, IIRC, didn't occur, would have helped greatly. As it was, Cena's limited offense, pretty bland in-ring charisma, and sporadic selling hurt the match a lot. And it's not just this match, it's every "great" Cena match I've seen. The one match with Cena I can honestly say I liked was Cena/'Taker from Vengeance '03, and a lot of that had to do with 'Taker.

 

-His push. Cool, he's the new face of WWE. Good for him. I don't care. One of the big reasons I stopped watching Raw when I still lived with my folks and had cable was because of the push. There'd be a challenger built up that I'd hope would take the title from Cena, and then they'd lose in a mediocre match. When Edge won it following NYR in '06? I watched the next night. And the week after that, and the week after that. I watched until he dropped the belt. When RVD won it at ONS II? I watched the next night. Then I stopped because the whole show was awful, but I digress. Cena losing made me watch, and not because I wanted to see him get the belt back, but because I hoped he wouldn't. And when he did? I stopped. I agree that Cena going over Michaels was the right thing to do. Ditto Khali, Umaga, etc. etc. And I also agree that when he finally drops the belt, with the only thing being that he needs to do it relatively cleanly, the new champion will get a decent rub should they not be already very over (so no HHH, HBK, etc.). His push just doesn't work considering how cut-and-paste his feuds have become. Heroes who never fail aren't interesting. Heroes who succumb to the odds once in a while are.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I LOVED the Cena/HBK match from Mania. But maybe I am just reading what the story of the match was a bit differently.

 

I saw it as Cena would try and wrestle HBK but would get cut off at every point. After all the perception of just about every fan was that HBK IS the better wrestler. Cena would try and play it HBK's way and BAM he would fail either with a counter move or just being outsmarted. But finally at the finish Cena figured it out and managed to CATCH HBK in the STFU (Which was beautifully called by J.R. with "He's caught! He's caught!"). It was a real nice put over by HBK IMO who allowed Cena to win with the one time he out-wrestled him during the match and also made him look very tough in the meantime while HBK struggled to put him away.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I liked Cena/HBK from Mania. It was simple. Michaels tried to control the match by taking away Cena's most valuable asset. Keep him on his back as much as possible and he tried to control it at his pace. It was cool to see Shawn say fuck it, once Cena started making his comeback and to just throw everything he had against him.

 

It was on of my favorites of this year, but I can see why many people didn't like it.

[Guest Toddiwod]

This has to do with Cena, so I'll ask it here... just for shits and giggles.

 

There's a poll on WWE.com, naturally, basically asking who's going to win. Cena or Lashley. And the results so far are around 50/50, with Cena winning the vote by a fraction. My question is, honestly, do the fans think Lashley is THE GUY who's finally going to beat Cena? I mean, even after Khali and Umaga?

[Mike wanna be 0]

They're so conditioned to the face overcoming "insurmountable" odds that they really don't have a clue what to expect when the argument can suddenly be made that both men will have "overcome the odds", so to speak, to emerge victorious.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Honestly, Lashley could be that guy. Thanks to the super push on RAW while he was ECW champion before and after Mania... he's in the Cena category of adding 300,000 viewers and even more to his segments.

[Chalmation 0]

people have been saying they want a legit challenger to cena who's held the belt now for 293 days

 

if he keeps it past raw monday night he'll pass billy graham's 296 for the 9th longest reign of all time

 

by comparison, the longest world title reign was 282 days by batista

 

all i have to say about lashley is "be careful what you ask for, because you may get it"

 

 

[edgehead69 0]

C'mon let's Face It... John Cena is a Bottom Feeder! He'll probably keep the title and then fued with the likes of Snitsky, Viscera, and other nobody monster heels....I wonder how it feels to the big stars that they have to work with Cena..... It's Pathetic and a Disgrace..... Also... Get rid of that damn title...

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Yeah. They need to get rid of one of the hottest merchandise sellers. I mean why worry about making money? They have gotta make the small percentage of their fanbase happy, especially those who don't even buy anything from WWE or order their PPVs or anything like that.

[edgehead69 0]

Yeah. They need to get rid of one of the hottest merchandise sellers. I mean why worry about making money? They have gotta make the small percentage of their fanbase happy, especially those who don't even buy anything from WWE or order their PPVs or anything like that.

 

Agree... Those things sell like hot cakes..... I mean you dont see people often wearing Edge or RKO shirts... Its al Cena Cena Cena, with a dash of mysterio

[Toxxic 0]

Cena makes money, yes. I suppose the problem is, is he stopping anyone else from making money? No heel can beat him so for all their building of monster heels, none of them will actually BE monsters. Without a monster heel, or even a successful heel, you can't have a face chasing a belt, which is good for sales. And of course there's the 'Vader Syndrome' (courtesy Jim Butcher/Harry Dresden) of where the monster heel turns face and everyone orgasms their way into buying the new T-shirt.

[edgehead69 0]

Yeah but Cena has beaten nearly everyone in the locker room.... Its pathetic... And hearing the commentators praise him is disgusting like them censoring out Cena sucks chants

[mysterious_w 0]

The recent Cena hate may be because he hasn't had a 1-on-1 PPV match with anyone of even average quality in months:

 

Vengence: 5-way

ONS: Khali

JD: Khali

Backlash: 4-way

 

You have to go as far back as Wrestlemania before you get to the good stuff. If Cena had faced anyone with a shred of talent (Orton, Umaga, Flair) in those months, an example of how good he can be would be fresh in people's minds. I don't think he's the best worker in the WWE by far, but he CAN work, and he CAN put on a main-event match that I want to see. It's just that they haven't given him the oppurtunity to recently.

 

[edgehead69 0]

The recent Cena hate may be because he hasn't had a 1-on-1 PPV match with anyone of even average quality in months:

 

Vengence: 5-way

ONS: Khali

JD: Khali

Backlash: 4-way

 

You have to go as far back as Wrestlemania before you get to the good stuff. If Cena had faced anyone with a shred of talent (Orton, Umaga, Flair) in those months, an example of how good he can be would be fresh in people's minds. I don't think he's the best worker in the WWE by far, but he CAN work, and he CAN put on a main-event match that I want to see. It's just that they haven't given him the oppurtunity to recently.

 

I mean.. Look at his othe reigns... he had matches against Jericho, Angle, a chamber, Edge, HHH, RVD, Umaga, RKO, HBK, and Khali...

 

He isnt a bad worker per se... but he is a horrible wrestler

[mysterious_w 0]

I didn't watch most of the PPV events from 2006, but his matches at WM22, Unforgiven and RR2007 were all good.

 

Let's face it, you have blind Cena hate. You refuse to accept anything with Cena in it can be good, and I don't know why. Maybe just to follow the internet crowd and feel cool or something.

[edgehead69 0]

I didn't watch most of the PPV events from 2006, but his matches at WM22, Unforgiven and RR2007 were all good.

 

Let's face it, you have blind Cena hate. You refuse to accept anything with Cena in it can be good, and I don't know why. Maybe just to follow the internet crowd and feel cool or something.

 

Blind Cena Hate??? Not True, I did like Cena when he won the WWE title the first time... i wanted to see what he had to offer... i havent been satified..

Ive seen a bevy of Cena matches and most suck... but the ones that stand out are as follows

 

Cena vs Brock (Backlash 2003)

Cena vs Undertaker (Vengeance 2003)

Cena vs Angle (No Mercy 2003)

Cena vs Eddie (Latino Parking Lot Brawl, Smackdown)

Cena vs Angle (No Way Out 2005)

Cena vs Jericho vs Christian (Vengeance 2005)

Cena vs HHH vs Edge (Backlash 2006) My Fave Cena Match

Cena & RVD vs HHH & Masters & Benjamin (Texas Tornado on Raw)

Cena vs Edge (Summerslam 2006)

Cena vs Edge (TLC Unforgiven 2006)

Cena vs Shawn Michaels (Raw before Backlash)

 

The rest are just abysmal and plainly suck and thats all i have to say about that...

 

I mean arnt you tired of the "comeback kid" thing OVER AND OVER??

 

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

I'd prefer to watch Cena with the title then Lashley with the title. However, I do think Lashley has something in him to be a smug/smarmy heel champion - even if he does have a soft voice.

[edgehead69 0]

I'd prefer to watch Cena with the title then Lashley with the title. However, I do think Lashley has something in him to be a smug/smarmy heel champion - even if he does have a soft voice.

 

Lashley's time is not now.... Although he cant talk on the mic... He is a good athlete and is way over with the fans... give him 1 year

[Ultra Violence 0]

Just bring back Heyman and use him as a mouthpiece. Lashley clearly equals Black Lesnar anyway... may aswell do the job properly.

[NoCalMike 0]

I don't even think Cena is garbage, or horrible. I just think he is average. My main problem with his matches though, or that he is being booked to "overcome the odds" which to me, only works when you have a worker with a dynamic offense. John Cena's "comebacks" reek of Hulk Hogan 1987, when he basically just hulks up after taking a beating, hits three punches, the boot, the legdrop. There is nothing dynamic or entertaining about that.

 

In his match with HBK, they should have had the guys in reverse roles, with HBK being the one to mount the comeback, because he has a dynamic offense. Cena still could have won, but pulling off something out of his ass like a small package or some type of reversal, however, HBK should have been the one to be booked to "make a comeback"

[edgehead69 0]

I don't even think Cena is garbage, or horrible. I just think he is average. My main problem with his matches though, or that he is being booked to "overcome the odds" which to me, only works when you have a worker with a dynamic offense. John Cena's "comebacks" reek of Hulk Hogan 1987, when he basically just hulks up after taking a beating, hits three punches, the boot, the legdrop. There is nothing dynamic or entertaining about that.

 

In his match with HBK, they should have had the guys in reverse roles, with HBK being the one to mount the comeback, because he has a dynamic offense. Cena still could have won, but pulling off something out of his ass like a small package or some type of reversal, however, HBK should have been the one to be booked to "make a comeback"

 

Agree undoubtably but if cena was heel.....

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I think the Cena hate has reached ridiculous levels. It gets to the point where people micro-analyze everything to find faults with his work. Are Cena's matches repetitive? I don't know, but except for a situation like HHH/Steiner where a guy goes back to the same move over and over, most fans don't care. Your casual fan knows wrestling is fixed but doesn't know the hows. Cena doing the same things every match, or making the superhuman comeback too much, most fans don't give a damn about it.

 

I've been a fan of wrestling since 1990. I've seen a 9 month Ultimate Warrior title reign. Nine months of Yokozuna. A YEAR of Kevin Nash. Six months of Justin Credible. 15 months of Hulk Hogan (WCW). If Cena is average, he is hardly the worst wrestler to hold a championship for an extended period of time. Back in the Attitude era, you'd have Austin drop the belt, Rock pick it up two months later, four changes between him and Foley, Austin getting the big win at Wrestlemania only to lose the belt two months later, regain it in another two months and drop it again next month. That SUCKED, and ultimately served to devalue the championship. I'd rather see guys keep the title too long, because it means more when they finally lose it. If Cena lost and regained the title three times, no one would care when he did it.

 

If you don't like how WWE keeps Cena on top, find something else to watch. Seriously. I get the perception that most people hate Cena because it's oh-so-cool to do it, in spite of the fact that most of WWE's fanbase loves Cena, including the big merchandise buyers. If that doesn't suit you, quit watching WWE and support some local promotion instead. Because why should WWE cater to you?

 

All this has led me to one key realization about the business as a whole. Wrestling needs not fear the loss of kayfabe. It doesn't matter if fans know it is fixed or not. Fans still CARE about who wins and loses, and that is the most important factor in selling a wrestling card.