WWE General Discussion - November 2007

[Black Lushus 0]

some of my favorite WWE matches involved Shawn:

vs. UT-Badd Blood

vs. UT-Ground Zero

vs. Mankind-Mindgames

vs. Diesel-Good Friends Better Enemies

vs. Razor Ramon-WM 10

vs. Razor Ramon-Summerslam 1995

Wild Card Match-Survivor Series 1995

vs. Angle-WM21

vs. HHH-Summerslam 02

vs. Shelton Benjamin-Gold Rush Tournament, Raw 05

vs. John Cena, Raw earlier this year

 

yeah...can;t say I agree with the Shawn's not a great worker crowd...

Ok, I stand corrected, HBK is a great worker...When a gimmick is involved, or when it's a overbooked clusterfuck (Ie, Mind Game, WM 21, and Ground Zero)...

 

So out of that lsit, that leaves 1 great match (Cena from Raw), and one good match, that is mostly remembered because of the SCM spot that ended the match.

 

 

So, you're saying in order to prove that a guy is a great worker, he can only work regular old matches, correct?

 

Also, I didn't know I was trying to change your mind on the subject. I stated why I liked him and listed matches that I like for examples.

 

Wanna try a different fight with me, sport?

[The Truthiness 0]

some of my favorite WWE matches involved Shawn:

vs. UT-Badd Blood

vs. UT-Ground Zero

vs. Mankind-Mindgames

vs. Diesel-Good Friends Better Enemies

vs. Razor Ramon-WM 10

vs. Razor Ramon-Summerslam 1995

Wild Card Match-Survivor Series 1995

vs. Angle-WM21

vs. HHH-Summerslam 02

vs. Shelton Benjamin-Gold Rush Tournament, Raw 05

vs. John Cena, Raw earlier this year

 

yeah...can;t say I agree with the Shawn's not a great worker crowd...

Ok, I stand corrected, HBK is a great worker...When a gimmick is involved, or when it's a overbooked clusterfuck (Ie, Mind Game, WM 21, and Ground Zero)...

 

So out of that lsit, that leaves 1 great match (Cena from Raw), and one good match, that is mostly remembered because of the SCM spot that ended the match.

 

 

So, you're saying in order to prove that a guy is a great worker, he can only work regular old matches, correct?

Also, I didn't know I was trying to change your mind on the subject. I stated why I liked him and listed matches that I like for examples.

 

Wanna try a different fight with me, sport?

No. I'm saying to be a great worker he should be able to perform like a great worker in "regular old matches" and Gimmick matches.

,

[Black Lushus 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

[Scroby 0]

This can't be right... PWI's SmackDown spoiler's say that Dave Taylor and Drew McIntyre lost to THE NASTY BOYS in a dark match. Is there some new version of the Nasty Boys?

 

Edit: Well it was taped in Florida, I guess it's possible. Just seems really strange.

No it's most likely true and it's Knobbs and Saggs. Back at the WrestleFanFest event that took place at the Cow Palace in Oct I overheard Knobbs tell Bischoff he was going back to New York around this time frame. Good for them.

[Scroby 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

Lushus, you can't argue with the deaf, dumb, and mute.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

This can't be right... PWI's SmackDown spoiler's say that Dave Taylor and Drew McIntyre lost to THE NASTY BOYS in a dark match. Is there some new version of the Nasty Boys?

 

Edit: Well it was taped in Florida, I guess it's possible. Just seems really strange.

No it's most likely true and it's Knobbs and Saggs. Back at the WrestleFanFest event that took place at the Cow Palace in Oct I overheard Knobbs tell Bischoff he was going back to New York around this time frame. Good for them.

 

The last time Knobbs was on Hogan Knows Best it looked like he could barely even walk. He was grossly overweight and needed the aid of a cane to get around. How the hell could he work a wrestling match in that condition?

[The Truthiness 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

No, I'm not going with Shawn "never worked a great non gimmick match", I'm going with Shawn Micheals is very good, and has had some good matches, but his best matches come when he has a gimmick as a crutch. There is only hanful of great non gimmick, Shawn Micheal matches, and even when a gimmick isn't involved, there are a lot of gimmick spots (Ie: Tables, Gory Blade jobs, or A over booked finish). I think his matches with Cena were great matches, that didn't involve a gimmick, but I say that's more because of Cena then Shawn, but still those matches were after 2 years of HBK not being that good.

.

 

[The Truthiness 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

Lushus, you can't argue with the deaf, dumb, and mute.

He's not arguing with you.

 

[Scroby 0]

This can't be right... PWI's SmackDown spoiler's say that Dave Taylor and Drew McIntyre lost to THE NASTY BOYS in a dark match. Is there some new version of the Nasty Boys?

 

Edit: Well it was taped in Florida, I guess it's possible. Just seems really strange.

No it's most likely true and it's Knobbs and Saggs. Back at the WrestleFanFest event that took place at the Cow Palace in Oct I overheard Knobbs tell Bischoff he was going back to New York around this time frame. Good for them.

 

The last time Knobbs was on Hogan Knows Best it looked like he could barely even walk. He was grossly overweight and needed the aid of a cane to get around. How the hell could he work a wrestling match in that condition?

When I saw him (Which was all that weekend) Knobbs didn't use a cane at all. He was walking around all over the place without any issue. He was very energenic (sp?), a very happy guy to be around, and was very excited every time I was near him or kinda introduced myself to him. He honestly looked good and was always full of energy.

[Black Lushus 0]

HBK wasn't good during the point in his comeback when he was putting himself over and working with Triple H constantly (Summerlsam 02 aside), but I think he's really been on fire since 05.

 

Hey, that's just my personal opinion....

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

HBK vs. Jericho from Mania XIX is quite good.

[Black Lushus 0]

agreed...the only knock on it is the outcome...I guess...

[Scroby 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

No, I'm not going with Shawn "never worked a great non gimmick match", I'm going with Shawn Micheals is very good, and has had some good matches, but his best matches come when he has a gimmick as a crutch. There is only hanful of great non gimmick, Shawn Micheal matches, and even when a gimmick isn't involved, there are a lot of gimmick spots (Ie: Tables, Gory Blade jobs, or A over booked finish). I think his matches with Cena were great matches, that didn't involve a gimmick, but I say that's more because of Cena then Shawn, but still those matches were after 2 years of HBK not being that good.

.

And you just lost the debate with that statement.

[The Truthiness 0]

HBK vs. Jericho from Mania XIX is quite good.

Yes it was, Jericho hasn't been that good since, Shawn didn't have another good match that year, until the last raw of that year.

 

[The Truthiness 0]

so you're going with "Shawn never works a great non-gimmick match?"...honestly...???

No, I'm not going with Shawn "never worked a great non gimmick match", I'm going with Shawn Micheals is very good, and has had some good matches, but his best matches come when he has a gimmick as a crutch. There is only hanful of great non gimmick, Shawn Micheal matches, and even when a gimmick isn't involved, there are a lot of gimmick spots (Ie: Tables, Gory Blade jobs, or A over booked finish). I think his matches with Cena were great matches, that didn't involve a gimmick, but I say that's more because of Cena then Shawn, but still those matches were after 2 years of HBK not being that good.

.

And you just lost the debate with that statement.

Shawn offense isn't effective enough to dominate a match, but Cena was able to make Shawn look like Vader. Cena went on too have great matches with the likes of Lashely and Khali. HBK went on to do, well, nothing.

[Mecca 0]

Partial Source: The Wrestling Observer Newsletter

 

The following information comes for the Wrestling Observer Newsletter:

 

- Vince McMahon stated in an interview with the Orlando Sentinel that 30 performers have been suspended since the Wellness Policy started in February 2006. 11 of the 30 suspensions came from people who slipped through. In other words, 11 of the suspensions came for the government investigation of Signature Pharmacy, not from drug test failures.

 

- Randy Orton, the current WWE champion, was still allegedly receiving packages from Signature Pharmacy after failing a test and being suspended, and then was protected from another suspension for reasons that can only be speculated on.

 

- In terms of Chris Benoit's testosterone/epitestosterone ratio at the time of his death, it would be the third highest t/e ratio ever tested in the state on Nevada.

 

- There has been 60 drug test failures in all

[cabbageboy 0]

Okay it's a stretch to say Cena had great matches with Khali. That said, I've mostly hated Shawn Michaels since he beat my boy Bulldog for the IC title in Nov. 1992. A lot of teen guys watching wrestling in the 1990s disliked HBK, thought his act was queer as hell (the dancing, the Blue Oyster Bar leather...need I go on?). People on here badmouthed Jericho's so called "gay" outfit last night on Raw, but I didn't find it all that gay since I remember how Michaels used to look, haha.

 

I've since grown out of that line of thinking and at least sorta enjoy his post 2002 work. At times I think he slips into self parody, like the Hogan 2005 match or this past Sunday vs. Orton. But a little bit of Michaels will go a long way with me. I didn't like either of those Cena matches for shit this year, found them overlong and ponderous. As in what was the story these guys were telling that required nearly an hour?

 

Here is the difference to me between Hogan hulking up or Lawler pulling the strap and what Michaels does with the kip up. Hogan or Lawler often take very generalized beatdowns so they can get some adrenaline rushing and get pissed. I've seen Michaels flat out no sell specific work done to his back and things like that.

 

And really truth be told throughout his career Shawn Michaels simply doesn't have a serious enough moveset to beat the guys he has beaten. He's beaten the likes of Sid, Vader, Nash....but honestly what high impact offense does he have to put such men down? It's not like Rob Van Dam for instance who has an arsenal of incredibly high impact moves that can put down a huge man. Shawn is just out there hitting a friggin superkick, which has always been a really lame finish (which anyone can see coming from a mile away). Hell, the recent storyline of the match with Orton was HBK himself admitting he had no credible offense, hence his laughably bad attempts at the Sharpshooter, Crossface, and Anklelock.

[Mecca 0]

Source - Wrestling Observer Newsletter

 

-- As reported last night, it is rumored that WWE RAW superstar Carlito gave his notice to management last week. Nothing has been confirmed by World Wrestling Entertainment, but many of Carlito's colleagues believe this to be the case. In the past the RAW superstar has worked with TNA writer Dutch Mantel; therefore TNA should not be ruled out as a future option.

 

-- Harry Smith tested positive for Stanazolol (Winstrol V) on September 13th. Smith allegedly took the anabolic steroid while he was working developmental territories. He is scheduled to return from his suspension at the December 2nd RAW house show in Savannah, Georgia.

 

 

There goes the speculation that Harry Smith wasn't using roids...

[The Truthiness 0]

And really truth be told throughout his career Shawn Michaels simply doesn't have a serious enough moveset to beat the guys he has beaten. He's beaten the likes of Sid, Vader, Nash....but honestly what high impact offense does he have to put such men down? It's not like Rob Van Dam for instance who has an arsenal of incredibly high impact moves that can put down a huge man. Shawn is just out there hitting a friggin superkick, which has always been a really lame finish (which anyone can see coming from a mile away). Hell, the recent storyline of the match with Orton was HBK himself admitting he had no credible offense, hence his laughably bad attempts at the Sharpshooter, Crossface, and Anklelock.

I think the superkick is a good knock out blow type move, to help put Shawn over the big guys. That's the only thing I can completly understand about Micheals.

 

[Jingus 0]

Ok, I stand corrected, HBK is a great worker...When a gimmick is involved, or when it's a overbooked clusterfuck (Ie, Mind Game, WM 21, and Ground Zero)...

 

So out of that lsit, that leaves 1 great match (Cena from Raw), and one good match, that is mostly remembered because of the SCM spot that ended the match.

Bullfuckingshit. How, EXACTLY, were Mind Games, WM21, and Ground Zero "overbooked clusterfuck"s? Because two of 'em had DQ endings which were mandated by the bookers, not Shawn? Because they killed the spanish announce table, like every single PPV main event from 1997 to now? You didn't even try to make anything close to a compelling argument against that list of matches, and it's hardly an all-inclusive one of everything great Shawn's ever done.

 

No. I'm saying to be a great worker he should be able to perform like a great worker in "regular old matches"

So, the hundreds of matches with Bret, the miracles he dragged out of Nash, carrying Sid to his best matches ever, that amazing match with Shelton, the great series with Angle, various classics with Davey Boy, his great stuff with Benoit, some just-fine matches with Edge and Orton, the only good match Hogan's had in the past five years, the non-gimmick matches with HHH, going against Jericho, and oh yeah about a thousand matches both partnered with and feuding against Mary Jannetty, NONE of those count? Really?

 

Shawn offense isn't effective enough to dominate a match, but Cena was able to make Shawn look like Vader. Cena went on too have great matches with the likes of Lashely and Khali. HBK went on to do, well, nothing.

Jesus Christ, stop it.

 

1. The developmental roided-up rapper wannabe made the 25-year legendary veteran look good?!

 

2. Shawn's offense isn't good? He uses various chain wrestling, assorted rollups, a couple suplexes, punches, chops, kicks, stomps, clothesine, flying forearm, elbow drop, superkick. Plus it's not like the dude is a Batista who never strays from his established moveset, Shawn will frequently break out some random little move which he doesn't do all the time. For the WWE, he's got plents of MOVEZ~!.

 

3. Cena vs. Lashley and Cena vs. Khali were great matches?!

 

4. Shawn went on to do more rematches with Cena and feud with Orton until he took time off for knee surgery, genius.

 

 

And really truth be told throughout his career Shawn Michaels simply doesn't have a serious enough moveset to beat the guys he has beaten. He's beaten the likes of Sid, Vader, Nash....but honestly what high impact offense does he have to put such men down? It's not like Rob Van Dam for instance who has an arsenal of incredibly high impact moves that can put down a huge man. Shawn is just out there hitting a friggin superkick, which has always been a really lame finish (

I've never understood this argument. Shawn throws just as much if not more offense as Hogan, Austin, or Rock did, plus a few flying-ish moves that those guys didn't. And how is the superkick weak? Compared to, for example, the big leg drop, the stunner, or the people's elbow? Kicking someone right in the fucking face is the most credible finisher there is. Don't forget it's a superkick which put Bret Hart permanently out of wrestling.

[BorneAgain 0]

Well, looks like MVP/Matt may be blown off at Wrestlemania after all.

 

Matt Hardy has emergency appendectomy in Tampa, out 1-3 months

[Mecca 0]

My best friend had to have his appendix removed a few years ago, he said it was really painful.

[Enigma 0]

Whoever called out Jericho earlier about botching all those moves against Rhyno at Summerslam 2001 needs to do their homework. A lot of people were having problems because the ropes weren't tight enough. Watch Tajiri do an Asai Moonsault on X-Pac. The ropes are so loose that the middle rope actually sagged down below the third rope when Tajiri springed off of it.

[Wally Balls 0]

It's not like Rob Van Dam for instance who has an arsenal of incredibly high impact moves that can put down a huge man.

 

If anything, RVD's moveset is more unrealistic than anything that Shawn has ever done. RVD hit's a whole bunch of flip flop moves that logic says someone would probably be able to avoid. If anyone's moveset is predictable, then it has to be RVD's.

 

As far as the Superkick/SCM being a legit finisher, I think it's one of the best and most realistic finishers out there. It's simple, yet effective. It's a kick to the face. Many fighters in MMA have been legit knocked the fuck out by a kick to the face. I don't think a finisher has to be long and elaborate to be deemed effective.

 

The best thing about the superkick/SCM is that it can come out of anywhere. The one thing I enjoy about Orton is the RKO. Moves like SCM, RKO, Stunner, Rock Bottom, and to a lesser extent, the FU, are all moves that get a crowd going and can suprise them. Those moves are the ones that really get guys over because it makes they're matches more exciting and unpredictable to watch.

 

[The Truthiness 0]

Bullfuckingshit. How, EXACTLY, were Mind Games, WM21, and Ground Zero "overbooked clusterfuck"s? Because two of 'em had DQ endings which were mandated by the bookers, not Shawn? Because they killed the spanish announce table, like every single PPV main event from 1997 to now? You didn't even try to make anything close to a compelling argument against that list of matches, and it's hardly an all-inclusive one of everything great Shawn's ever done.

 

Undertaker popping out of a casket, Vader taking 2 hours to get to the ring, and all the street fight shenanigans tdon't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really? A match where the ref is out for the majority of the match, and again breaks in to a street fight which involves the whole roster comoing out to break it up, ending with Suicide dive by Taker, doesn't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really?

 

No. I'm saying to be a great worker he should be able to perform like a great worker in "regular old matches"

 

So, the hundreds of matches with Bret, the miracles he dragged out of Nash, carrying Sid to his best matches ever, that amazing match with Shelton, the great series with Angle, various classics with Davey Boy, his great stuff with Benoit, some just-fine matches with Edge and Orton, the only good match Hogan's had in the past five years, the non-gimmick matches with HHH, going against Jericho, and oh yeah about a thousand matches both partnered with and feuding against Mary Jannetty, NONE of those count? Really?

 

Where are his classics with Davey Boy? The iron man match was probably one of the most underwhelming matches ever, until the last 10 minutes., Bret and Shawn were basically being pricks through out the match, and there wasn't really a story in the match. It's liked they phoned in the 1st 30 minutes, kicked it up for 10 minutes, and phoned it inb again until the finish. Not a classic. It was basically a long drawed out version of their survivor series match in 1992 I believe, but not as good.

 

The Miracle, he dragged out Nash at WM12 wasn't really that good, and the great match he had with Nash was one of Shawn's great gimmick matches.

 

I've often said the match he had with Benoit in Phoenix was a pretty good match, not great, but pretty good.

 

I really don't think his matches with Angle were that great, they both are fans of that "non stop" style, but neither is really good at it. So when they hooked up, it was pretty good, but nothing that'll stand the hands of time. They have matches against other people that was nice, but they didn't seem to really click that well together, and it seemed they made up for it by going balls to wall, but it still was forgettable.

 

That match with Shelton was very good, but it's only gets praise for the finish.

 

Most of his matches with Triple H were gimmick matchs, do you know what you're talking about? It took them almost 2 years to have a regular match, and that came in December of 2003. His Cyber Sunday match with HHH suffered because he had a bad knee, and even with a bad knee he couldn't sell it right. I can't remember any more of there regular matches, which mean they were forgettable, like a lot of Micheals non gimmick affairs.

 

His just fine match with with Edge were street fights, again a gimmick match. His match with Ortoon this sunday was very good, but thqt wasn't because of Shawn shitty tributes to Benoit, Angle, and Benoit. It was more because of the GIMMICK of Shawn trying to win without SCM, and Orton awsome concussion offense.

 

Shawn offense isn't effective enough to dominate a match, but Cena was able to make Shawn look like Vader. Cena went on too have great matches with the likes of Lashely and Khali. HBK went on to do, well, nothing.

 

Jesus Christ, stop it.

That's what Shawn needs to be saying.

 

 

1. The developmental roided-up rapper wannabe made the 25-year legendary veteran look good?!

I know, It baffles me to that Shawn has been in the business 25 years and had to get carried by Cena.

 

2. Shawn's offense isn't good? He uses various chain wrestling, assorted rollups, a couple suplexes, punches, chops, kicks, stomps, clothesine, flying forearm, elbow drop, superkick. Plus it's not like the dude is a Batista who never strays from his established moveset, Shawn will frequently break out some random little move which he doesn't do all the time. For the WWE, he's got plents of MOVEZ~!.

 

He's a shitty chain wrestler which was seen in his match vs Angle at mania. The it was seen again, when he couldn't do a decent firemen's carry against Cena at mania. The guy isn't very good at Chain wrestling at all, and I never seen anybody say something so, well, let just say incorrect. His offense is that of a 80's junior weight, and not even a good 80's junior weight. So he never needs to dominate a match with his bad strikes, and even worse attempts at submission holds. The moves~! are not what offends me, it's how shitty it looks by Shawn. Plus it doesn't help that for the last 5 years you can time HBK's "boost of adrenaline" comebacks, it only makes the guy he wrestles look like shit. Batista doesn't stray from his move set and it works for him, Shawn attempts to stray from his move set is fucking hilarious for all the wrong reasons. Shawn benefitted at being at the right place at the right time, he has never ever in any era been the best wrestler in the WWE.

 

3. Cena vs. Lashley and Cena vs. Khali were great matches?!

Yes...

 

4. Shawn went on to do more rematches with Cena and feud with Orton until he took time off for knee surgery, genius.

Fair enough, But still he hasn't been shit for the last 2 years (other then HHH little christian sidekick) until he ran in to Cena. The guy is a good upper mid card guy, but he's nothing special as a worker/character, unless a gimmick is involved. On top of that, he's not even the best gimmick match worker in the company.

 

Would you like to continue, smart guy?

[Jingus 0]

Undertaker popping out of a casket, Vader taking 2 hours to get to the ring, and all the street fight shenanigans tdon't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really? A match where the ref is out for the majority of the match, and again breaks in to a street fight which involves the whole roster comoing out to break it up, ending with Suicide dive by Taker, doesn't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really?

It's generally agreed that the HBK/Mankind match was probably the WWF's MOTY, except for the run-in ending. And the finishes for PPV main events are called by the office, not Shawn.

 

Where are his classics with Davey Boy?

Both the Intercontinental matches from 92 and the PPV matches from 96 were just fine, aside from the Beware Of Dog show for obvious reasons.

 

The iron man match was probably one of the most underwhelming matches ever, until the last 10 minutes., Bret and Shawn were basically being pricks through out the match, and there wasn't really a story in the match. It's liked they phoned in the 1st 30 minutes, kicked it up for 10 minutes, and phoned it inb again until the finish. Not a classic. It vwas basically a lond drawed out version of their survivor series match in 1992 I believe, but not as good.

Did you miss the part where I said "the hundreds of matches with Bret"? So you pick on the one particularly overrated one? They had matches from the Rockers/Hart Foundation stuff in '89 all the way until Bret's last match in the company, and all of them were at least good, some were downright great.

 

The Miracle, he dragged out Nash at WM12 wasn't really that good, and the great match he had with Nash was one of Shawn's great gimmick matches.

It was WM11, and it was one of the few genuinely good singles matches Nash has ever had in his life. As for their better rematch, I think you're making way too much out of this "gimmick matches" point. A Hell In A Cell or an Inferno Match or a TLC is a crazy gimmick match. A no-DQ brawl... isn't.

 

I've often said the match he had with Benoit in Phoenix was a pretty good match, not great, but pretty good.

Well, that and those two awesome three-way matches they had with HHH.

 

I really don't think his matches with Angle were that great, they both are fans of that "non stop" style, but neither is really good at it. So when they hooked up, it was pretty good, but nothing that'll stand the hands of time. They have matches against other people that was nice, but they didn't seem to really click that well together, and it seemed they made up for it by going balls to wall, but it still was forgettable.

Well, I'm just gonna have to completely disagree with you, because I thought their match at Wrestlemania was easily match of the night, and maybe match of the year, just fucking amazing.

 

That match with Shelton was very good, but it's only gets praise for the finish.

Yeah, the match itself is overshadowed by the finish, but it's still a great match overall.

 

It took them almost 2 years to have a regular match, and that came in December of 2003.

Which ironically was their best match in their series, at least as far as I'm concerned.

 

Orton awsome concussion offense.

A bunch of headlocks, a diamond cutter, and an absolutely average nothing-special stomp to the head is "awesome"?

 

I know, It baffles me to that Shawn has been in the business 25 years and had to get carried by Cena.

No, Cena didn't carry Shawn, period.

 

"Shawn benefitted at being at the right place at the right time, he has never ever in any era been the best wrestler in the WWE."

Let me guess: you were a huge Hitman mark.

 

"3. Cena vs. Lashley and Cena vs. Khali were great matches?!" "Yes..."

Bullmotherfuckingshit. Cena is average, Lashley sucks, and Khali REALLY sucks.

 

"Would you like to continue, smart guy?"

I'll keep arguing all night long, mastermind.

[The Buzz 0]

Shawn Michaels is a hell of a worker. I've never been his biggest fan, but I mean his body of work speaks for itself. I even think the matches he had with Triple H in 02, December 03, and 2004 were all good-great. It was a rivalry, which is something that seems to be lost in wrestling sometimes. To be honest, HBK is one of the few guys who I can't really look at one year in his career, and say damn he didn't do much of anything this year.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Cena brought the best out of Shawn since... since Jericho I'd say.

[BorneAgain 0]

Shawn always struck me as a guy who didn't bring his best every single night, but even still was easily one of the top 5 workers in the company. He clearly does better when he's initially working with fresh opponents (see Jericho, Cena, Angle).

[The Truthiness 0]

It's generally agreed that the HBK/Mankind match was probably the WWF's MOTY, except for the run-in ending. And the finishes for PPV main events are called by the office, not Shawn.

It was a clusterfuck ending, a good clusterfuck, but still a clusterfuck. The match was great and it was getting very good up until the Clusterfuck ending.

 

 

Both the Intercontinental matches from 92 and the PPV matches from 96 were just fine, aside from the Beware Of Dog show for obvious reasons.

They were good, but nothing classic, like you said the 1st time. Stop changing up your argument, buddy.

 

 

Did you miss the part where I said "the hundreds of matches with Bret"? So you pick on the one particularly overrated one? They had matches from the Rockers/Hart Foundation stuff in '89 all the way until Bret's last match in the company, and all of them were at least good, some were downright great.

 

They never had a downright great match, but I agree their tag team matches were good.

 

It was WM11, and it was one of the few genuinely good singles matches Nash has ever had in his life. As for their better rematch, I think you're making way too much out of this "gimmick matches" point. A Hell In A Cell or an Inferno Match or a TLC is a crazy gimmick match. A no-DQ brawl... isn't.

 

 

That WM 11 match really doesn't age well and it isn;'t half as good as their GFBE Match. I'm making point out of the gimkmick matches, mbecause it's the Truth, and that's where the majority of these "Great Performances" by SHawn come from. Which is my point, his regular matches aren't bad, but he only really bshines when he has a stipulation as a crutch. That's not a sign of a great performer.

 

Well, that and those two awesome three-way matches they had with HHH.

 

You're really reaching now, 3 ways shouldn't really count in this discussion. But since it further proves my point "Shawn, is only great in gimmick matches" I'll go ahead and let it pass.

 

Well, I'm just gonna have to completely disagree with you, because I thought their match at Wrestlemania was easily match of the night, and maybe match of the year, just fucking amazing.

 

Why?

 

Yeah, the match itself is overshadowed by the finish, but it's still a great match overall.

 

 

If the finish overshadows the work leading up to it, that's not a great match.

 

Which ironically was their best match in their series, at least as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

The streetfight was the best match in the series, followed by this match. I never said this wasn't a great match. I actually said this was his best match 9 months after his match with Jericho at mania. It's kind of sad, that a baby was conceived and born during the period of Shawn 2 best matches in 2003

 

A bunch of headlocks, a diamond cutter, and an absolutely average nothing-special stomp to the head is "awesome"?

Orton's hold gimmick is based on beating a guys brain in, and he does it well. When he applies the head/chinlock it makes sense with what he's come to be know for in the last 7 months, giving peoplen head injuries. So the stomps to the head, the elevated ddt's, neck/back breaker all mean something and is a perfectly good build to "the kick to the head" oir the RKO. Orton's whole demeanor during matches is awsome right now, the stalking , th facial expression, and his methodical detroying of his opponent ois awsome. Way better the anything Micheals has done in the last 2 years, which is the same damn match evey go round.

 

"No, Cena didn't carry Shawn, period." He did, and it was great because of it.

 

"Let me guess: you were a huge Hitman mark."

 

What the fuck are you talking about? Don't try to turn this in to a Hitman/HBK debate, so then you can go off in another direction with the discussion. This is about you defending HBK being a great worker, and doing it pretty badly. Against me saying HBK is a good-very good performer, but not anything special, unless he has a stip to lean on.

"

"Bullmotherfuckingshit. Cena is average, Lashley sucks, and Khali REALLY sucks."

 

Cena has been arguably the best worker in the WWE this year, maybe even the world. He's had strong performances every month of the year, and has 4 legit MOTYC. Lashely and Khali both suck, and Cena was able to get the great matches out of one (Lashely at GAB) and a match that was downright better then anything it should be, and actually very good by all standards. I call it great, because Cena carried the guy to something that wasn't just passable, something that totally made you forget Khali sucked.

 

"I'll keep arguing all night long, mastermind."You'll keep losing, Einstein.