WWE General Discussion - November 2007

[Mecca 0]

This is simple.....if you think Michaels is a shitty worker, or was ever a shitty worker you my friend are stupid. If any wrestler goes out there and has a bad match with Shawn Michaels, that means that wrestler fuckin blows.

 

Simple as that. If you wrestle Shawn fucking Michaels even if you have very little talent the match should still be at least ok.

[The Truthiness 0]

Shawn always struck me as a guy who didn't bring his best every single night, but even still was easily one of the top 5 workers in the company. He clearly does better when he's initially working with fresh opponents (see Jericho, Cena, Angle).

 

You think he's better then Cena, Rey,Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now? I could easily name 5 more who's been better then HBK all year.

 

Edit: Cena is out "right now", so I meant this years performances.

[The Truthiness 0]

This is simple.....if you think Michaels is a shitty worker, or was ever a shitty worker you my friend are stupid. If any wrestler goes out there and has a bad match with Shawn Michaels, that means that wrestler fuckin blows.

 

Simple as that. If you wrestle Shawn fucking Michaels even if you have very little talent the match should still be at least ok.

Your statement is simple, I never said he was a shitty worker. I pointed out shitty things that he does, that prevent him from being a great worker. He's good sometimes, and when giving a match where he can play off a stipulation, he shines.

 

[Mecca 0]

Let's have a convo about how much Hornswoggle fuckin sucks. If you ask me worst wrestling moment of the year, it's anything with him.

 

I wish they'd fire that guy, I seriously hate him and the fact that he gets TV time. Whoever thinks putting him on TV every week is a idiot and should be slapped in the face with a brick.

[Jingus 0]

too much nitpicky bullshit

This ain't going anywhere. So, two questions:

 

1. You think Michaels has truly never had a great straight-up singles match performance?

 

2. What WOULD you call examples of a great match, or great workers?

 

 

You think he's better then Cena, Rey, Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now?

 

YES. Yes I do. That's the point. I think he's probably the overall best worker in the company. Well, maybe not right this instant with his knees being all rusty lockjawed, but up until he got hurt last time, yes. He's a better bumper than Cena, better brawler than Rey, cuts better promos than Matt, plays the crowd better than Finlay, can do more different types of stuff than Umaga, is more adaptable to different situations and able to have good matches with a wider variety of opponents than all of the above. That's my point, I think Shawn is that good, to the point where I can't think of any one person in the company that surpasses him in all areas.

[Black Lushus 0]

shit, I forgot about his match with Nash at WM11...good call, Jingus. It wasn't MOTY or anything, but it was fun and certainly the best match on a very very weak card.

[DangerousDamon 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJYMhBw8Fdc

 

MVP and Kendrick channel Misawa and Marufuji in this finish to a six man tag.

[Silence 0]

Let's have a convo about how much Hornswoggle fuckin sucks. If you ask me worst wrestling moment of the year, it's anything with him.

 

I wish they'd fire that guy, I seriously hate him and the fact that he gets TV time. Whoever thinks putting him on TV every week is a idiot and should be slapped in the face with a brick.

 

Yeah, he's basically midget Eugene at this point.

 

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The only reason they're still pushing Hornswoggle is to justify the horrible decision to make him Vince's "son."

 

BTW, since I didn't see this elsewhere, Meltzer has a story up about Matt Hardy having an emergency appendectomy last night, and probably being out 1-3 months. Guess that makes MVP's attack on him on the last Smackdown work out pretty well.

[muzz 0]

Can't believe I didn't see the brilliance in Orton relying on long rest holds. It's actually perfect psychology!

 

 

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Sarcasm aside...it is. His two finishers, the RKO and the Concussion Kick, focus on the head. Most of his offense is directed at lessening bloodflow to the brain and softening the head and the neck. So...how is he not using psychology by having an offense primarily focused on the head? I'm not saying Orton is some outstanding ***** match calibre worker these days, and I don't think he ever really will be, but he's a lot better than most people are willing to give him credit for.

[justcoz 0]

The only reason they're still pushing Hornswoggle is to justify the horrible decision to make him Vince's "son."

 

BTW, since I didn't see this elsewhere, Meltzer has a story up about Matt Hardy having an emergency appendectomy last night, and probably being out 1-3 months. Guess that makes MVP's attack on him on the last Smackdown work out pretty well.

 

I really don't understand why they haven't gone the comical route of making Hornswoggle a mini Vince with a suit, dyed black hair and the McMahon strut. I really thought the leprochaun thing would have been killed off by now.

[Perfection 0]

Sarcasm aside...it is. His two finishers, the RKO and the Concussion Kick, focus on the head. Most of his offense is directed at lessening bloodflow to the brain and softening the head and the neck. So...how is he not using psychology by having an offense primarily focused on the head? I'm not saying Orton is some outstanding ***** match calibre worker these days, and I don't think he ever really will be, but he's a lot better than most people are willing to give him credit for.

 

I agree completely. All the shit he catches about the headlocks and stuff is stupid. Hell I suppose no one here ever enjoyed the old nwa did they? Just about every match had multiple and long "rest" spots/headlock spots. Orton is way better than he is given credit for and I'm not that easy to please.

[Thanks for the Fish 0]

I hated the idea of Hornswoggle when it was just a rumor, however I think it's played out alright in small doses. However making him the payoff to the Bastard McMahon angle was beyond ridiculous. I thought it was a short term rib of sorts to bridge the gap until Kennedy returned from suspension, but sadly that wasn't the case.

 

Hornswoggle living under the ring, poking his head up during Finlay matches and helping out when Finlay looks like he needs help is fine however.

[fazzle 0]

About HBK, the main thing that bothers me about him is the damn kip-up. Not because it "ruins the match" and makes it so that Shawn is no-selling all the offense that has been done to him.

 

No, it just bothers me because he telegraphs it so fucking blatanly. He always has a certain "kip-up position" that he lies in, so that you know the damn thing is coming. It bugs the shit out of me.

[The Truthiness 0]

too much nitpicky bullshit

This ain't going anywhere. So, two questions:

The nit picky bullshit part is a cop out, and you know it.

 

1. You think Michaels has truly never had a great straight-up singles match performance?

I'm pretty sure I've said he did have some straight up great performances, just not many. Genius.

 

2. What WOULD you call examples of a great match, or great workers?

There is many, I'll give you a list in a minute.

 

You think he's better then Cena, Rey, Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now?

 

YES. Yes I do. That's the point. I think he's probably the overall best worker in the company. Well, maybe not right this instant with his knees being all rusty lockjawed, but up until he got hurt last time, yes. He's a better bumper than Cena, better brawler than Rey, cuts better promos than Matt, plays the crowd better than Finlay, can do more different types of stuff than Umaga, is more adaptable to different situations and able to have good matches with a wider variety of opponents than all of the above. That's my point, I think Shawn is that good, to the point where I can't think of any one person in the company that surpasses him in all areas.

It really doesn't matter how well he bumps, if he doesn't know how to sell the bump. Cena is a better seller, and in my opinion a better bumbper then HBK. Cena isn't better then Cena in any area right now.

 

"A better brawler then Rey"

 

Rey is 5'4 and still a better brawler then Micheals, his matches with Eddie were better then anyBrawls HBK was doing around that time, and his brawls with Chavo, JBL, and now Finlay is better then any brawls Shawn has done in the last 3 years. Rey is head over heels a better worker and better overall performer then HBK will ever be. His matches are more exciting then HBK, they make more sense then Hbk's, they have better selling then HBK's, The crowd get involved m,ore then they do a HBK match. HBK compared to Rey is really exposed as a mediocre performer.

 

"A better talker then Matt"

 

You're really reachingm, and losing steam. But ok.

 

"He plays to a crowd better the Finlay"

 

Finlay beat downs are examples of him playing to the crowd, he doen'ty need kip ups and a super burst of adrenaline like HBK to get a crowd to pop. Cena beating the shit out of somebody draws a crowd in more then anything HBK has been doing all year. The best way to play to the crowd, is when you can play to a crowd and not make it obvious that you're playing to the crowd. Tully Blanchard is at fault for telling Micheals "It's about who keeps them yelling \the longest", and it translates in his mediocre match structure. Where as a guy like Finlay doesn't ned all the smoke and mirrors to keep a crowd interested in his matches, and thus why he's been a better performer then Micheals for the last 2 years.

 

"Can do more different type of stuff, then Umaga"

 

Thats just stupid, and makes no sense. The guy isn't better then Umaga, at anything right noiw. You;e really reaching, Umaga matches with Jeff and Cena are better then anything Micheals has done in 2 years. What kind of "different stuff" does Micheals do?

[The Truthiness 0]

Sarcasm aside...it is. His two finishers, the RKO and the Concussion Kick, focus on the head. Most of his offense is directed at lessening bloodflow to the brain and softening the head and the neck. So...how is he not using psychology by having an offense primarily focused on the head? I'm not saying Orton is some outstanding ***** match calibre worker these days, and I don't think he ever really will be, but he's a lot better than most people are willing to give him credit for.

 

I agree completely. All the shit he catches about the headlocks and stuff is stupid. Hell I suppose no one here ever enjoyed the old nwa did they? Just about every match had multiple and long "rest" spots/headlock spots. Orton is way better than he is given credit for and I'm not that easy to please.

p

 

It also looks like Orton is really trying to tear a guys head off guy with his chinlocks.

 

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I don't care for this "then" usage.

 

Anyway

http://www.wwe.com/shows/smackdown/article...0/edgereasoning

 

Louie Dee should be on creative. He's probably better than the Hollywood guys.

[Black Lushus 0]

now waaaaait a second...no way is Rey a better brawler than ANYONE.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating the marks interest in Finlay. Everytime Finlay is on Raw, you can hear the crickets chirping.

 

 

[foleyfanforever88 0]

too much nitpicky bullshit

This ain't going anywhere. So, two questions:

The nit picky bullshit part is a cop out, and you know it.

 

1. You think Michaels has truly never had a great straight-up singles match performance?

I'm pretty sure I've said he did have some straight up great performances, just not many. Genius.

 

2. What WOULD you call examples of a great match, or great workers?

There is many, I'll give you a list in a minute.

 

You think he's better then Cena, Rey, Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now?

 

YES. Yes I do. That's the point. I think he's probably the overall best worker in the company. Well, maybe not right this instant with his knees being all rusty lockjawed, but up until he got hurt last time, yes. He's a better bumper than Cena, better brawler than Rey, cuts better promos than Matt, plays the crowd better than Finlay, can do more different types of stuff than Umaga, is more adaptable to different situations and able to have good matches with a wider variety of opponents than all of the above. That's my point, I think Shawn is that good, to the point where I can't think of any one person in the company that surpasses him in all areas.

It really doesn't matter how well he bumps, if he doesn't know how to sell the bump. Cena is a better seller, and in my opinion a better bumbper then HBK. Cena isn't better then Cena in any area right now.

 

"A better brawler then Rey"

 

Rey is 5'4 and still a better brawler then Micheals, his matches with Eddie were better then anyBrawls HBK was doing around that time, and his brawls with Chavo, JBL, and now Finlay is better then any brawls Shawn has done in the last 3 years. Rey is head over heels a better worker and better overall performer then HBK will ever be. His matches are more exciting then HBK, they make more sense then Hbk's, they have better selling then HBK's, The crowd get involved m,ore then they do a HBK match. HBK compared to Rey is really exposed as a mediocre performer.

 

"A better talker then Matt"

 

You're really reachingm, and losing steam. But ok.

 

"He plays to a crowd better the Finlay"

 

Finlay beat downs are examples of him playing to the crowd, he doen'ty need kip ups and a super burst of adrenaline like HBK to get a crowd to pop. Cena beating the shit out of somebody draws a crowd in more then anything HBK has been doing all year. The best way to play to the crowd, is when you can play to a crowd and not make it obvious that you're playing to the crowd. Tully Blanchard is at fault for telling Micheals "It's about who keeps them yelling \the longest", and it translates in his mediocre match structure. Where as a guy like Finlay doesn't ned all the smoke and mirrors to keep a crowd interested in his matches, and thus why he's been a better performer then Micheals for the last 2 years.

 

"Can do more different type of stuff, then Umaga"

 

Thats just stupid, and makes no sense. The guy isn't better then Umaga, at anything right noiw. You;e really reaching, Umaga matches with Jeff and Cena are better then anything Micheals has done in 2 years. What kind of "different stuff" does Micheals do?

 

LOL. HBK is a much, much better talker than Matt Hardy so I don't know what you're problem with that statement was. Finlay has never elicited a crowd reaction and as talented as he his, a large majority of audiences pay attention to his matches because of who he's facing, not because he does anything to keep them interested. And to say that Umaga is better than HBK at everything right now is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

[Insanity 0]

Cena's had a better year than Michaels? Um, Cena in normal wrestling matches has to be carried by guys like Michaels. He's forte is in gimmick matches, which almost anyone can have a decent match in.

[The Truthiness 0]

now waaaaait a second...no way is Rey a better brawler than ANYONE.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating the marks interest in Finlay. Everytime Finlay is on Raw, you can hear the crickets chirping.

Well if your definition of a brawl is "Punch and kick" then no he isn't. What i'm saying that in a brawling in attmspere he utilizes his style of wrestling to theb situation perfectly. Examples are his matches with Eddie, JBL, Chavo and Finaly. He knew he couldn't go in and match punces with those guys,m so he used his speed and agility to break them down and still do alot of damage. He also brought alot of emotion,. and hatred to those feuds that came off not like a guy trying to survive, but like a guy who came to beat the shit out oif his opponents, and it worked well and qualifies as a brawl when you look at the structure of the match. He took alot of beatings in those feud, yes. But he also dished out alot of beatings, and he came off like quite the bad ass in the process, and that if need be he can not only wrestle but he can "fight" also...

 

Finlay matches seem to always have alot of heat, noit sure what you mean. I've never witnessed a boring/heatless Finlay match on either show, but I'm specifically talking about Smackdown.

[The Truthiness 0]

Cena's had a better year than Michaels? Um, Cena in normal wrestling matches has to be carried by guys like Michaels. He's forte is in gimmick matches, which almost anyone can have a decent match in.

Did Bobby Lashely and Orton Carry him also? Shawn Michaels didn't carry anbody, if Shawn was such a great carry artist like people claim, he would've gotten something decent out of Khali. He didn't. Cena on the other hand got 2 very good matches out of the guy. Cena was basically the reason the match at mania was Micheals was very good. Micheals forte is gimmick matches, Not Cena, Michaels "classic matches" are usually gimmick matches. Cena on the other hand has had awsome matches all year, and has pretty easily surpassed Micheals as a performer, which isn't really a hard feat.

 

[The Truthiness 0]

too much nitpicky bullshit

This ain't going anywhere. So, two questions:

The nit picky bullshit part is a cop out, and you know it.

 

1. You think Michaels has truly never had a great straight-up singles match performance?

I'm pretty sure I've said he did have some straight up great performances, just not many. Genius.

 

2. What WOULD you call examples of a great match, or great workers?

There is many, I'll give you a list in a minute.

 

You think he's better then Cena, Rey, Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now?

 

YES. Yes I do. That's the point. I think he's probably the overall best worker in the company. Well, maybe not right this instant with his knees being all rusty lockjawed, but up until he got hurt last time, yes. He's a better bumper than Cena, better brawler than Rey, cuts better promos than Matt, plays the crowd better than Finlay, can do more different types of stuff than Umaga, is more adaptable to different situations and able to have good matches with a wider variety of opponents than all of the above. That's my point, I think Shawn is that good, to the point where I can't think of any one person in the company that surpasses him in all areas.

It really doesn't matter how well he bumps, if he doesn't know how to sell the bump. Cena is a better seller, and in my opinion a better bumbper then HBK. Cena isn't better then Cena in any area right now.

 

"A better brawler then Rey"

 

Rey is 5'4 and still a better brawler then Micheals, his matches with Eddie were better then anyBrawls HBK was doing around that time, and his brawls with Chavo, JBL, and now Finlay is better then any brawls Shawn has done in the last 3 years. Rey is head over heels a better worker and better overall performer then HBK will ever be. His matches are more exciting then HBK, they make more sense then Hbk's, they have better selling then HBK's, The crowd get involved m,ore then they do a HBK match. HBK compared to Rey is really exposed as a mediocre performer.

 

"A better talker then Matt"

 

You're really reachingm, and losing steam. But ok.

 

"He plays to a crowd better the Finlay"

 

Finlay beat downs are examples of him playing to the crowd, he doen'ty need kip ups and a super burst of adrenaline like HBK to get a crowd to pop. Cena beating the shit out of somebody draws a crowd in more then anything HBK has been doing all year. The best way to play to the crowd, is when you can play to a crowd and not make it obvious that you're playing to the crowd. Tully Blanchard is at fault for telling Micheals "It's about who keeps them yelling \the longest", and it translates in his mediocre match structure. Where as a guy like Finlay doesn't ned all the smoke and mirrors to keep a crowd interested in his matches, and thus why he's been a better performer then Micheals for the last 2 years.

 

"Can do more different type of stuff, then Umaga"

 

Thats just stupid, and makes no sense. The guy isn't better then Umaga, at anything right noiw. You;e really reaching, Umaga matches with Jeff and Cena are better then anything Micheals has done in 2 years. What kind of "different stuff" does Micheals do?

 

LOL. HBK is a much, much better talker than Matt Hardy so I don't know what you're problem with that statement was. Finlay has never elicited a crowd reaction and as talented as he his, a large majority of audiences pay attention to his matches because of who he's facing, not because he does anything to keep them interested. And to say that Umaga is better than HBK at everything right now is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

Well Umaga matches with Triple H, Hardy, and Cena are better then anything HBK has done in a looooong time. This isn't really debatable. HBK is good, but he's not even in the top 10 of WWE performers of 2007. If you take away his matches with Cena, HBK name wouldn't even be mentioned in 2007 as best anything. IN 2006 he doesn't have anything better then the Cena/Edge feud, or the Finlay/Benoit matches. Shawn matches do elicit a crowd, because they're hyped up, and are fun usually overbooked clusterfucks, but as a pure in ring performer he's not in Finlay league, I should've been more clear, I apologize. But I'm willing to bet if you put Finlay in a main event feud, you'd get more mileage out of it then a Shawn Micheals feud/match. Finlay is a better character and performer then Michaels.

 

Hell, Just look at Shawn matches with the same guys Finlay has wrestled like Rey and Benoit. They all are better when Finlay is in there, and you can't say Finlay was ever carried, when his job is too be the carrier.

 

[Scroby 0]

Let's have a convo about how much Hornswoggle fuckin sucks. If you ask me worst wrestling moment of the year, it's anything with him.

 

I wish they'd fire that guy, I seriously hate him and the fact that he gets TV time. Whoever thinks putting him on TV every week is a idiot and should be slapped in the face with a brick.

 

Yeah, he's basically midget Eugene at this point.

And remember, Hornswoggle gets paid a lot of money to be Hornswoggle. God, I'd love to have his job.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

now waaaaait a second...no way is Rey a better brawler than ANYONE.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating the marks interest in Finlay. Everytime Finlay is on Raw, you can hear the crickets chirping.

 

Finlay matches seem to always have alot of heat, noit sure what you mean. I've never witnessed a boring/heatless Finlay match on either show, but I'm specifically talking about Smackdown.

 

You must have missed Finlay's fake face turn feud with Regal in the Summer of 2006 while Lashley was out of action. I was actually at the SmackDown taping after the 2006 GAB and while my section got a pretty good Finlay chant going in the rematch with Regal, it came across just as dead as it did at the Bash until Hornswoggle showed up.

[The Truthiness 0]

So, who's for a Lance Cade push?

[Ultra Violence 0]

Let's have a convo about how much Hornswoggle fuckin sucks. If you ask me worst wrestling moment of the year, it's anything with him.

 

I wish they'd fire that guy, I seriously hate him and the fact that he gets TV time. Whoever thinks putting him on TV every week is a idiot and should be slapped in the face with a brick.

 

Yeah, he's basically midget Eugene at this point.

And remember, Hornswoggle gets paid a lot of money to be Hornswoggle. God, I'd love to have his job.

 

Personally I would have McMahon announce that he's adopted a son he can be proud of and have Kennedy come out and destroy Hornswoggle (Who returns to appearing from under the ring during Finlay's matches) and then proceed with the original planned angle building to HHH vs Kennedy at mania leaving Jericho to face a newly heel Jeff Hardy who wins the rumble. The card then would have three strong / original matches:-

 

Undertaker vs Edge

Jericho vs Hardy

Kennedy vs HHH

 

A mania calibre card?

 

[foleyfanforever88 0]

So, who's for a Lance Cade push?

 

If he keeps using the Redneck Destroyer, Murdoch > Cade.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Why are they turning the merchandising selling Jeff Hardy heel in the above scenario? Is this going to become like the Cena deal, where people get bored with Jeff Hardy getting a big push and demand he becomes a dirty heel to freshen up his character, ignoring the merchandising / kids loving him angle?