WWE General Discussion - November 2007

[Atticus Chaos 0]

It seems with Jericho everyone is full of excuses for why his title reign flopped. It was Stephanie and HHH, Austin didn't want to sell for him...etc. People want to absolve him of all responsibilty.

 

Angle had to put up with some crappy booking during his first title reign too. He never ever got a clean win, and was even playing second fiddle to Trish Stratus for a while. However, he rose above it, rarely put on a bad performace and went onto to have greater success. If Jericho had been out there putting on great matches night after night, people would have said 'yeah, the booking sucks, but he's still a great champion.' But they weren't.

 

 

[BHK 0]

Going back to the talk about Shawn's back earlier in the thread, I didn't see this mentioned so I'll ask.

 

How is it exactly that he was able to come back in 2002? I thought he injury in 1998 put him on the shelf for life?

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I'm pretty sure Angle beat Crash Holly clean on Heat during his first reign, Gogo. Don't take that away from him.

[Ginger Snaps 0]

2.Please provide specific examples, preferably from matches which are available to everyone on Youtube, of exactly how Carlito is lazy. I'm serious. I've heard the "Carlito's lazy" meme for months, but never seen it myself.

 

Exhibits 1 through whatever: every Carlito match from at least the last 6 months.

[LivingLegendGaryColeman 0]

So my question is, how did Benoit avoid getting jobbed out and why did HHH allow him to go over at Mania? That was kinda shocking, considering how Hall and Nash felt about Benoit and Gurerreo.

 

What I had always heard on this was that HHH saw Benoit to be a solid worker who he could put on good matches with, being his version of Ricky Steamboat to himself being Flair.

[The Truthiness 0]

Scott Steiner's best WWE moment was his debut, and that is probably about it.

 

 

Jericho is a good worker, he's not a great worker like a Flair, HBK, Hart, Benoit, etc. Jericho is only bad at times because of his tendency to be stale in his work. I've never really watched a Jericho match and said this is bad.

HBK is a great worker? He's better then Jericho, but A great worker?

 

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Welcome to TSM Mr Keller.

 

Off topic, but this reminded me of turning on my TV before going to work this morning and seeing an old show called "Night Heat" on. The plot was about a man named Bruce Mitchell who was murdered - when police investigated his house, they found he was involved in a child pornography ring. Poor Torch.

 

Uh-oh, looks like it might be time for another round of TSM's "Shawn Michaels: Great worker! versus Shawn Michaels: Overrated asshole who oversells!". Count me out.

[Kristianna 0]

Welcome to TSM Mr Keller.

 

Off topic, but this reminded me of turning on my TV before going to work this morning and seeing an old show called "Night Heat" on. The plot was about a man named Bruce Mitchell who was murdered - when police investigated his house, they found he was involved in a child pornography ring. Poor Torch.

 

Uh-oh, looks like it might be time for another round of TSM's "Shawn Michaels: Great worker! versus Shawn Michaels: Overrated asshole who oversells!". Count me out.

 

Its possible, honestly... that Shawn Michaels is both at the same time.

[Scroby 0]

It seems with Jericho everyone is full of excuses for why his title reign flopped. It was Stephanie and HHH, Austin didn't want to sell for him...etc. People want to absolve him of all responsibilty.

 

Angle had to put up with some crappy booking during his first title reign too. He never ever got a clean win, and was even playing second fiddle to Trish Stratus for a while. However, he rose above it, rarely put on a bad performace and went onto to have greater success. If Jericho had been out there putting on great matches night after night, people would have said 'yeah, the booking sucks, but he's still a great champion.' But they weren't.

One thing I would like to point out that's sorta booking 101 is that a heel champion really shouldn't go over clean on someone unless either there's no program involved or the feud is not continuing after that particular match when the heel champion does go clean.

[The Truthiness 0]

Welcome to TSM Mr Keller.

 

Off topic, but this reminded me of turning on my TV before going to work this morning and seeing an old show called "Night Heat" on. The plot was about a man named Bruce Mitchell who was murdered - when police investigated his house, they found he was involved in a child pornography ring. Poor Torch.

 

Uh-oh, looks like it might be time for another round of TSM's "Shawn Michaels: Great worker! versus Shawn Michaels: Overrated asshole who oversells, an". Count me out.

You forgot "never put over a guy in his life, unless it involved getting the shit knocked out of him by Taker".

 

 

 

Its possible, honestly... that Shawn Michaels is both at the same time.

No, not really.

 

[Black Lushus 0]

I'm sorry...how is Shawn not a great worker, again? Let me guess...he no sells a 20 minute beating, right? What babyface doesn't?

[Kristianna 0]

I'm sorry...how is Shawn not a great worker, again? Let me guess...he no sells a 20 minute beating, right? What babyface doesn't?

 

Isn't that the M.O. for being a babyface to begin with?

[Jingus 0]

Hush, don't try to talk sense into the HateBK club. While I admit that personally Shawn is a disgusting piece of hypocritical shit who never wants to put over anybody but his own good buddies, he's still just a damned amazing in-ring performer and can carry anyone to a decent match. The haterz scream "No-sell! Kip-up!" and completely ignore the fact that pretty much every single top babyface on the roster does some version of that.

 

Hey Gogo: got any specific reasons why Jericho sucks? Beyond "well these couple of matches weren't real good" or "he blew some highspots which were highly complicated and dangerous moves which 90% of the humans on the planet couldn't even hope to do".

 

Also still waiting on exact examples of Carlito lazing it up. "Every match ever LOL" ain't an answer.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

This can't be right... PWI's SmackDown spoiler's say that Dave Taylor and Drew McIntyre lost to THE NASTY BOYS in a dark match. Is there some new version of the Nasty Boys?

 

Edit: Well it was taped in Florida, I guess it's possible. Just seems really strange.

[The Truthiness 0]

I'm sorry...how is Shawn not a great worker, again? Let me guess...he no sells a 20 minute beating, right? What babyface doesn't?

He also is pretty shitty with his strikes. I wouldn't mind his "boost of adrenaline", if his fiery comeback didn't involve punches that my 4 year old niece could do better.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Even when making a comeback, the babyface should still sell the the effects of the beating so it comes across like he's heroically fighting through the pain. The problem Shawn has had is that he'd often act like there was nothing wrong with him, which doesn't make for quite the heroic fightback.

[Black Lushus 0]

some of my favorite WWE matches involved Shawn:

vs. UT-Badd Blood

vs. UT-Ground Zero

vs. Mankind-Mindgames

vs. Diesel-Good Friends Better Enemies

vs. Razor Ramon-WM 10

vs. Razor Ramon-Summerslam 1995

Wild Card Match-Survivor Series 1995

vs. Angle-WM21

vs. HHH-Summerslam 02

vs. Shelton Benjamin-Gold Rush Tournament, Raw 05

vs. John Cena, Raw earlier this year

 

yeah...can;t say I agree with the Shawn's not a great worker crowd...

[Kristianna 0]

Even when making a comeback, the babyface should still sell the the effects of the beating so it comes across like he's heroically fighting through the pain. The problem Shawn has had is that he'd often act like there was nothing wrong with him, which doesn't make for quite the heroic fightback.

 

You do have a legit point, sir.

 

 

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I don't think people are trying to Shawn isn't a great performer. Just that he isn't as flawless as some make him out to be.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I don't like him, but he still does a good enough job of bringing a crowd into things.

[Black Lushus 0]

oh the man has his flaws...I don't disagree, the hate just gets old. ESPECIALLY the "Shawn should retire crowd"...why should he? If he can still put on top notch matches, unlike say Ric Flair, then I'm all for him staying around.

[Mecca 0]

Jingus is a big fan of Carlito's slow motion high spots.

[Black Lushus 0]

Jingus thinks John Cena puts on shitty matches...sometimes you have to take him with a grain of salt

 

 

oh i love ya Jingus LOLBBQ2007

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

We can examine this further on Tuesday, November 27th when The Shawn Michaels Story: Heartbreak and Triumph comes out on DVD ($18.18 at WWEshop.com - pre-order today).

[The Niggardly King 0]

Jingus is a big fan of Carlito's slow motion high spots.

 

He moves at yardtard speed at times.

[Jingus 0]

Jingus is a big fan of Carlito's slow motion high spots.

Never said I was a fan. In fact, never was a fan. But I think the guy gets bashed all out of proportion to his actual ability. I've seen people actually claim that he was the crappier half of his tag team with Chris Masters. I mean, jesus, come on.

 

HTQ/CTP is right about the theory that a babyface should still sell the damage even during his fiery comeback. Problem is... the biggest drawing babyfaces of all time didn't do that. Hogan sure as hell didn't, Rock didn't, Austin often didn't. Neither did Bruno Sammartino once he started the "I hate you so much I'm gonna shake my fists" routine, or Lawler once he pulled the strap down, or... It's one of those professional wrestling things which don't really work according to logic or commonly accepted smark wisdom.

[Black Lushus 0]

well said, Jingus

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

HTQ/CTP is right about the theory that a babyface should still sell the damage even during his fiery comeback. Problem is... the biggest drawing babyfaces of all time didn't do that. Hogan sure as hell didn't, Rock didn't, Austin often didn't. Neither did Bruno Sammartino once he started the "I hate you so much I'm gonna shake my fists" routine, or Lawler once he pulled the strap down, or...

All those babyfaces had the size and/or aura to look credible while doing so. Shawn had neither of that, which is why it looks bad when he does it.

[The Truthiness 0]

some of my favorite WWE matches involved Shawn:

vs. UT-Badd Blood

vs. UT-Ground Zero

vs. Mankind-Mindgames

vs. Diesel-Good Friends Better Enemies

vs. Razor Ramon-WM 10

vs. Razor Ramon-Summerslam 1995

Wild Card Match-Survivor Series 1995

vs. Angle-WM21

vs. HHH-Summerslam 02

vs. Shelton Benjamin-Gold Rush Tournament, Raw 05

vs. John Cena, Raw earlier this year

 

yeah...can;t say I agree with the Shawn's not a great worker crowd...

Ok, I stand corrected, HBK is a great worker...When a gimmick is involved, or when it's a overbooked clusterfuck (Ie, Mind Game, WM 21, and Ground Zero)...

 

So out of that lsit, that leaves 1 great match (Cena from Raw), and one good match, that is mostly remembered because of the SCM spot that ended the match.

 

[The Buzz 0]

There are two types of comebacks for a babyface, the superman comeback and the comeback. You have to be really over with the crowd to hit a superman comeback properly according to Raven. The superman comeback hinges on the whole you've taken so much you're gonna fight through the pain and not feel it anymore, and the crowd is going to help you every inch of the way. HBK is more than over enough to use the above mentioned comeback. It's all about whether the crowd just likes you, or if they love you.