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General Marvel Discussion Thread

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A Marvel thread to just talk about anything going on in the comic book company, from books to direction to anything else.

 

Anyways, a few topics to get discussion moving.

 

1) Ed Brubaker's current run on Iron Fist: Best thing ever, or merely one of the best things ever? Has anyone ever taken a character concept and so totally made it his own without compromising the character? Man.

 

2) Incredible Herc 114: One of the best books of the year. My God, I'm not big on Greg Pak, but when he gets away from Hulk and Amadeus Cho, he is so sort of brilliant. His version of Ares is so beyond hilarious, and yet still threatening. I love it. Plus, Herc's acid trip is great.

 

3) Is Jeph Loeb the worst writer ever? He's essentially destroyed the Ultimates in only 3 issues (and arguably, after 1), and his run on the Hulk is not looking too inspiring, either.

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Has anyone ever taken a character concept and so totally made it his own without compromising the character?

Alan Moore, Swamp Thing.

 

Is Jeph Loeb the worst writer ever?

I've read Hush. Yes, yes he is.

 

 

 

I know it's been discussed a lot already, but I was just reading some of it for the first time and MAN Civil War was fucking terrible. Completely destroyed Iron Man's character forever, as far as I'm concerned.

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The climax of One More Day just killed Spider-Man for me, at least in the near future.

 

I thought Civil War was excellent, and it made Tony Stark about a thousand times more interesting than he was before.

 

Messiah Complex didn't let me down, though I question canceling New X-Men in favor of starting yet another new series (Young X-Men).

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I thought Civil War was excellent

From: New England

Nah, that joke's too easy.

 

I just hated the clumsy, obvious, sledgehammer-you-over-the-head metaphor that they drew between CW and real world current events. TEH NEGATIVE ZONE = GITMO, LOL. It seems like everyone besides Moore who ever tries to do political statements in comics tends to make them in an overly simplistic and one-sided manner. Marvel claimed beforehand that this would be a fair and balanced treatment, with both sides of the conflict being portrayed in an equally sympathetic light. But what we got was essentially Captain America's Freedom Fighters vs. Tony Stark's Evil Empire.

 

Also, where the hell were all the villains during CW? That would've been a great opportunity to do the "arch-enemies teaming up against a greater threat" thing which is always entertaining.

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You're saying the story wasn't balanced? Captain America at the end saying "We're winning everything but the argument?" and then surrendering? The story also made it overwhelmingly clear why Stark was doing this and they made sense (innocent people were killed, and an angry mother called him out on it).

 

It kind of sounds like they didn't do it the same way you would have, so therefore it sucks.

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Has anyone ever taken a character concept and so totally made it his own without compromising the character?

Alan Moore, Swamp Thing.

 

Is Jeph Loeb the worst writer ever?

I've read Hush. Yes, yes he is.

It doesn't matter how bad someone's writing is these days. Sales are all that matter. See: Millar, Mark and Way, Daniel. Hell, if She-Hulk suddenly skyrocketed in popularity she would undoubtedly become the new MU centerpiece. Not that I mind that, of course. Peter David FTW.

 

I'm really scared of Daniel Way writing the new Deadpool book though. *shudder*

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What was wrong in Civil War was the ridiculous inconsistency between different books. Yes, there were stupid things (Clor), but JMK writing Tony Stark as a complete Neo-Facist in "Amazing Spider-Man" (Along with Reed being a complete tag-a-long. "Admiring Tony"? Wait, what? Isn't Reed OLDER and more famous? Shouldn't that be the other way around?) was worse than some of the stupider things in the main comic. Tony was portrayed quite well in his own comic (And even in the Frontline comic for a little while. His fight with Prodigy was the exact right note of "Discussion then enforcement"), but in most other comics people just got the complete wrong idea.

 

People bitched about the ending of Infinite Crisis, but overall that story was definitely better as a whole than the Civil War mish-mash.

 

But destroyed Stark's character? You have to start reading him right now, Jingus. He's being written incredibly well in his current run as Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., as well as The Order which occasionally uses him and his appearances in Captain America have shown a favorable view of Tony. Right now, he's probably one of the most interesting characters at Marvel.

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I am in total agreement with Nightwing. Stark's protrayal in Captain America has been outstanding. In fact, I consider Captain Ameica to be the best book that Marvel is producing right now. I tip my hat at the outstanding work Brubaker has done.

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Anything with the name "Brubaker" is probably going to be Marvel's best book, or at the very least in the running. It was a mistake for DC to let him go, especially with his fan-fucking-tastic run with Rucka on Gotham Central. That was such a brilliant book...

 

But again, upon re-reading, I can't emphasize how well Pak is handling any character not named "Hulk" or "Cho" right now in Incredible Herc. He's actually made the guy pretty interesting, and Ares is easily the funniest badass ever.

 

"NO!! BLOWS FROM AN UNSEEN ASSAILANT HAVE FELLED WONDER MAN!!" <---- Awesomeness.

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but JMK writing Tony Stark as a complete Neo-Facist in "Amazing Spider-Man" (Along with Reed being a complete tag-a-long. "Admiring Tony"? Wait, what? Isn't Reed OLDER and more famous? Shouldn't that be the other way around?) was worse than some of the stupider things in the main comic.

Yeah, that was the one I was thinking of. I'd heard a whole lot about how lame Civil War was from a lot of people, so I'd only skimmed over a few random issues here and there. Spider-Man was the only one where I read the whole thing (he's still my favorite Marvel character, even after all the bullshit they've done to him), and it was just horrible, pissed me off to no end. After finishing that piece of shit, I never even picked up anything else that bore the Civil War brandname.

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I would seriously recommend Marvel to you right now, Jingus. Even as a DC fanboy, Marvel has a lot of absolutely fantastic series. I know what Swamp thing you are talking about, and he basically reinvented the character... But I dunno. Stylistically, Brubaker has made the Iron Fist feel like it's the 1930's, like you're reading the Shadow, but put so many layers of depth upon the mythos it's insane. Pick it up, in trade or on the stands, and you will NOT be disappointed. And Captain America is a fantastic book along with the "I'm as Underrated as Checkmate" Iron Man series which is absolutely fantastic. The new Mandarin is so awesome in concept it's hard to describe him right now, and the seriously troubled Tony dealing (realistically) with the problems of not only Steve Rogers, but Happy Hogan dying and his reaction so far is just fantastic. It's so damn taut, it's incredible.

 

Sure, Spider-Man blows right now. But frankly, it's hard to keep a character consistent and interesting across three books. I personally stick with Ultimate Spider-Man and don't even glance at the current version (Who has turned into Ultimate Spider-Man anyways), but don't miss out on some brilliant stuff that is coming in above and below the radar.

 

Oh, and respect the Avatar. I can't believe I suddenly like Greg Pak, but it's true.

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I actually started reading spiderman at OMD. I never really followed it before, so I figure it's a good time to pick up, with the story pretty much starting over. If you can get over the fact that the timeline you're used to is ruined, it's actually not a bad book.

 

I also buy new Wolverine and Wolverine Origins on a regular basis, because I've always been a big Wolvie fan. Wolverine is kind of getting weird with him constantly dying, and coming back to life.

 

Also, picked up the first issue of X-Force, and I will be following that story.

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but JMK writing Tony Stark as a complete Neo-Facist in "Amazing Spider-Man" (Along with Reed being a complete tag-a-long. "Admiring Tony"? Wait, what? Isn't Reed OLDER and more famous? Shouldn't that be the other way around?) was worse than some of the stupider things in the main comic.

Yeah, that was the one I was thinking of. I'd heard a whole lot about how lame Civil War was from a lot of people, so I'd only skimmed over a few random issues here and there. Spider-Man was the only one where I read the whole thing (he's still my favorite Marvel character, even after all the bullshit they've done to him), and it was just horrible, pissed me off to no end. After finishing that piece of shit, I never even picked up anything else that bore the Civil War brandname.

 

Okay, if that's all the Civil War you've read, then I can understand why you'd think that. I agree that Stark was a bit too villian-esque in that series, but I always figured that was only due to it being Spidey's book, with his perspective and motivations at the front. If you read the Civil War mini-series, you will get a much more balanced look at how things were playing out, at least IMHO.

 

 

I've also been reading Wolverine Origins. It was actually that series that got me back into buying comics on a regular basis again, since I saw it on the shelf, it looked awesome, and it was #1 so I was going to be starting at the beginning. So far the story arcs have been hit or miss with me since (hated the Omega Red story, loved the Captain America flashback story) but I've been sticking with it.

 

Wolverine is also hit or miss with the story arcs, but right now I really like the Mystique story.

 

 

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but JMK writing Tony Stark as a complete Neo-Facist in "Amazing Spider-Man" (Along with Reed being a complete tag-a-long. "Admiring Tony"? Wait, what? Isn't Reed OLDER and more famous? Shouldn't that be the other way around?) was worse than some of the stupider things in the main comic.

Yeah, that was the one I was thinking of. I'd heard a whole lot about how lame Civil War was from a lot of people, so I'd only skimmed over a few random issues here and there. Spider-Man was the only one where I read the whole thing (he's still my favorite Marvel character, even after all the bullshit they've done to him), and it was just horrible, pissed me off to no end. After finishing that piece of shit, I never even picked up anything else that bore the Civil War brandname.

 

Okay, if that's all the Civil War you've read, then I can understand why you'd think that. I agree that Stark was a bit too villian-esque in that series, but I always figured that was only due to it being Spidey's book, with his perspective and motivations at the front. If you read the Civil War mini-series, you will get a much more balanced look at how things were playing out, at least IMHO.

 

I've read just about all of the Civil War that is out there, and Stark (not to mention Richards, and the rest of the pro-reg crowd) were written pretty offensively badly throughout the entirety of the storyline. There really wasn't a whole lot of balance being given throughout the series. I mean, my god, they wrote Tony as a guy perfectly willing to make deals with some of the WORST murderers & madmen in the Marvel rogues gallery (Bullseye, Norman Osborne, Venom, etc.) in order to take down Cap and the anti-reg crowd. You had Stark & Richards portrayed as fascists, allusions to McCarthyism, the whole nine yards. It was a joke. Jingus is right in that it was done in just about the most heavy-handed, ham-fisted way possible. Even the ending was bullshit. It was basically, "Well, Cap's RIGHT, of course, but public opinion just isn't on his side, thanks to Stark and his culture of fear." If that isn't some sort of bizarre, whiny allegory to the modern day war on terror I don't know what is.

 

You're saying the story wasn't balanced? Captain America at the end saying "We're winning everything but the argument?" and then surrendering? The story also made it overwhelmingly clear why Stark was doing this and they made sense (innocent people were killed, and an angry mother called him out on it).

 

You may have found balance, but I don't think most people did. The Iron Man character got a really bad reputation right after Civil War and I don't quite think he's come close to overcoming that, yet. It's going to take the movie to make people forget all of that bullshit.

 

Only BARELY did SOME of the writers really go in depth as to Stark's motivation, at least during Civil War. Here and there you had one or two writers basically pull the curtain back and show Stark as being the guy willing to become the most hated man in the country in order to protect everyone and make superheroes accountable for their actions. The absolute most human Stark was written was in the issue of Fallen Son when he's talking to Captain America's corpse. But then you ran into that inconsistent bullshit, where you had writers (I think JMS did this, in particular) basically making Stark's company an analog for Halliburton by insinuating that Tony was getting all sorts of defense contracts for the war.

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How is Ultimate Spider-Man right now? That was my favorite book to read for a while, but I got busy and hadn't been to the comic shop in a long time. I ended up picking up all DC stuff as the covers of the Ultimate Spideys on display didn't catch my interest and I only made a quick stop.

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Ultimate Spider-man is ok but I've only ever really taken it as a fluff comic. The new Brand new Spider-man comics have been pretty decent and have felt like old school late 70s/ early 80s Spider-man.

 

Brubaker probably is one of the best writers they have right now but I still find Bendis entertaining. I have to agree that Loeb is terrible. While I haven't read Batman Hush, my understanding was that it was a great work and Loeb was a genius. I don't think a single project Loeb has worked on since writing for Marvel has been any good. From his start with Wolverine #50 (don't even try to follow that piece of shit) Ultimate Power (which I though JMS started but Loeb definately finished) the Ultimates 3 which is just all over ther place, and the art work is too dark (I haven't read #3 yet) and now Hulk. I read the first one and it was passable but I didn't pick up the second (which I hear was dog shit).

 

All in all I read a good number of the marvel titles and I think most of them are good books. It'll be interesting what happens with the Secret Invasion

I'm too lazy to go back and check but I'm pretty sure that in the New Avenger issue/ the issue after they find out Electra is a skrull, it cuts back to Jessica Jones with her baby and it has Skrull eyes? Or am I mistaken?

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I always thought Hush was a bit overrated. I liked it the first part, if only he handled the Bats vs. Supes fight excellently (Though Batfans often cite it as showing Batman could defeat Superman, they usually miss out on the fact that Batman notes "He could have ended this battle by flying into space and just pressing him into the cement. He's trying to fight the control..."), when

Jason turns out to be Clayface, I was disappointed: It was the perfect story for Jason to come back on, and the perfect note. But we get the obvious cop-out with his new "old buddy".

 

That, and Loeb has no fucking clue on how to write the Joker. It makes Dini's version that much better.

 

On topic: I really love Ultimate Spider-Man, but that might come from the fact that it's really coherent and Spider-Man as of late has been from uninspired to crap to "I refuse to read this on principle". It's a great book, and I recommend it. If you want to try out a book, try Ultimate FF (Which I think gets a lot of undue criticism), Ultimate Human (Warren Ellis' pseudo-science for the Win!), and Ultimate Iron Man (the best redone origin yet).

 

Sideburnious:

Yes, you did. This means that the baby is a skrull, and one of the parents might be as well.

.

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when

Jason turns out to be Clayface, I was disappointed: It was the perfect story for Jason to come back on, and the perfect note. But we get the obvious cop-out with his new "old buddy".

Why are we using spoiler tags for years-old comics? Anyone reading this probably either already knows this stuff or doesn't care.

 

As for that bit,

the worst part is the retconning they did shortly afterwards when they did bring Jason Todd back. "It really WAS me standing in the graveyard, but then I switched places with Clayface when you weren't looking."

Just stupid horseshit.

 

The worst thing about Loeb is that he CAN be good, as The Long Halloween proved, but oh so often he's just not.

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Sideburnious:

Yes, you did. This means that the baby is a skrull, and one of the parents might be as well.

.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I think the obvious answer would to look at Jessica Jones as she left Luke and then turned around to come back and marry him (IIRC) but I could see Bendis going with the twist of it being Cage. I mean the argument of Cage suddenly coming to prominance and now being the leader of the "New" New Avengers. That and he's been talking the most about not trusting anybody and thinking anyone could be a skrull. This point could also work in the opposite (i.e a skrull was under Luke Cage's nose all the time). Of course them both being skrulls could also be a good reveal.

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Sideburnious:

Yes, you did. This means that the baby is a skrull, and one of the parents might be as well.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I think the obvious answer would to look at Jessica Jones as she left Luke and then turned around to come back and marry him (IIRC) but I could see Bendis going with the twist of it being Cage. I mean the argument of Cage suddenly coming to prominance and now being the leader of the "New" New Avengers. That and he's been talking the most about not trusting anybody and thinking anyone could be a skrull. This point could also work in the opposite (i.e a skrull was under Luke Cage's nose all the time). Of course them both being skrulls could also be a good reveal.

Didn't they do an issue where Doctor Strange

conjured up some magic that proved that nobody on the New Avengers roster was a skrull?

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Sideburnious:

Yes, you did. This means that the baby is a skrull, and one of the parents might be as well.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I think the obvious answer would to look at Jessica Jones as she left Luke and then turned around to come back and marry him (IIRC) but I could see Bendis going with the twist of it being Cage. I mean the argument of Cage suddenly coming to prominance and now being the leader of the "New" New Avengers. That and he's been talking the most about not trusting anybody and thinking anyone could be a skrull. This point could also work in the opposite (i.e a skrull was under Luke Cage's nose all the time). Of course them both being skrulls could also be a good reveal.

Didn't they do an issue where Doctor Strange

conjured up some magic that proved that nobody on the New Avengers roster was a skrull?

 

Yeah they did but

in a issue since that they said that if Doctor Strange was a skrull himself then he could of changed the spell so that if it were him or if there were any other skrulls that they he could of covered it up.

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Sideburnious:

Yes, you did. This means that the baby is a skrull, and one of the parents might be as well.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I think the obvious answer would to look at Jessica Jones as she left Luke and then turned around to come back and marry him (IIRC) but I could see Bendis going with the twist of it being Cage. I mean the argument of Cage suddenly coming to prominance and now being the leader of the "New" New Avengers. That and he's been talking the most about not trusting anybody and thinking anyone could be a skrull. This point could also work in the opposite (i.e a skrull was under Luke Cage's nose all the time). Of course them both being skrulls could also be a good reveal.

Didn't they do an issue where Doctor Strange

conjured up some magic that proved that nobody on the New Avengers roster was a skrull?

 

Yeah they did but

in a issue since that they said that if Doctor Strange was a skrull himself then he could of changed the spell so that if it were him or if there were any other skrulls that they he could of covered it up.

Well then,

that skrull Dr. Strange is one motherfucking powerful skrull, given that he has performed incredible magical feats, like what he did when he allowed Wolvie and DareDevil to enter the SHIELD helicarrier undetected in the Fallen Son mini, and what he continues doing with him disguising his Sanctum Sanctorum (sp?).

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Can anyone fill me in one what the current X-books are, who writes what, and what characters appear in each? I follow Astonishing, but that's it.

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It's a bit of a mess right now in the wake of Messiah Complex, but it seems to be the following:

 

X-Men Legacy: Written by Mike Carey and a revolving door of artists. The story is focusing on Professor X's mind being pieced back together after Bishop shot him. Xavier's body is in the hands of the Acolytes, and in the last issue Magneto showed up.

 

Uncanny X-Men: Written by Ed Brubaker and illustrated by Michael Choi. Right now there are two stories going on. First, Cyclops and Emma Frost are investigating a strange happening where a bunch of people think it's the 60's (including Angel and Hepzibah). Meanwhile, Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler are visiting Russia.

 

X-Factor: Written by Peter David and currently illustrated by Valentine De Landro. The roster is Jamie Maddox, Siryn, Strong Guy, Monet St. Croix, Rictor, and still technically Layla Miller (but she's missing in action). The last issue set up a confrontation with Arcade. This is a strong series, well worth your time.

 

X-Force: Written by Craig Kyle and Christopher Yost, and illustrated by Clayton Craine. The roster is Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, and Wolfsbane. They are trying to take out the Purifiers once and for all. Oh, and they have resurrected Bastion by sticking his head on Nimrod.

 

Cable: Written by Duane Swierczynski and illustrated by Ariel Olivetti. Cable traveled into another time with the baby from Messiah Complex to try and protect her. They are being hunted down by Bishop, who wants the baby dead to spare himself (and all mutants, I guess) from the hell he lived through as a child.

 

Wolverine has a rotating creative team from arc to arc. Right now he's hunting down Mystique in the Middle East.

 

Wolverine Origins: Written by Daniel Way and illustrated by Steve Dillon. This series focuses on Wolverine's past (which is what the other Wolvie title ends up doing half the time anyway). Right now Wolverine is in the midst of a battle against Deadpool.

 

Young X-Men is starting up soon. Also, I don't read New Exalibur, but the roster includes Dazzler, Juggernault, Captain Britain, etc.

 

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How long has Brubaker been on Uncanny?

 

He started on #475 in the summer of 2006.

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I don't really like the deadpool story.. I think it's a bit too goofy, to what was a pretty serious series up until now. I'm hoping that they end it with the next issue.

 

I expect the Deadpool story will last 5-6 issues like most arcs seem to these days. I don't mind it, as it's sort of a comedy break in between a lot of seriousness, but if this is the new direction of the series I would be annoyed.

 

I loved the Captain America flashback story though.

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