Rock Vs. HHH or HBK Vs. Hart, which Ironman match you think is better?

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

This is a debate I've been having for years and years with various people in person and online... Maybe people think Hart Vs. HBK is not only the greatest Ironman match in WWF history, but possibly one of the greatest matches ever. I was always in the minorty, and thought this was easily one of the most overrated matches ever. I didn't get into the match until the final 10 miniutes...

 

I thought The Rock Vs. HHH at Judgement Day 2000 was always the better Ironman... I still don't think this match gets the respect it deserves. The match had me on the edge of my seat for the full 1 hour, in excitment. I thought The Rock and Hunter both did an excellent job with their ring physcology, telling a great story. With The Rock rallying a comeback only to get screwed over by controversey with the returning Undertaker, McMahon-Helmsley faction and the guest referee Shawn Michaels. The crowd was hot for the whole hour aswell, and when the Undertaker made his return the crowd went even more apeshit.

 

What is your guys opinions?

 

NOTE: I didn't add a poll, because I'd rather people explain there opinions then just having some shmuck vote without explaining their vote.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

The one time I tried to watch the HBK/Hart one, I fast forwarded to the end after about half an hour. It was incredibly boring to me. On the other hand, I loved the HHH/Rock one, despite the fact that they botched the ending with Taker arriving too late. They had to take the clock off the screen to try and cover it up, but overall the match was much more entertaining to me. One thing I remember was HHH smashing Rock with a chair, getting a DQ, and immediately pinning him. Why did Taker return to ruin a title match that he had no buisness with anyway? He had been gone for over 6 months, I didn't quite get why he was involved other than to say "Hey, Undertaker's back, he's a biker, and he wants a title shot."

[haws bah gawd 0]

HBK vs Bret is ok from a historical standpoint, but is a bit on the boring side. HHH vs The Rock was a work of art. I liked how some of the falls went by unconventional means, such as Rock's arm dropping 3 times from a rear chinlock. Something that really NEVER happens, though it worked well with the story they were tellign due to both men giving it their all. 1999-2001 were some of the best years to be a wrestling fan.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think I've only seen the Rock/HHH Iron Man match one time, but I think it held my attention more than the Shawn/Bret one, so I would have to give the later one the nod. HBK vs Bret Hart would have been so much better if they had given each man a fall during the match, instead of just having it go the full hour without either man getting a pin or submission, which just didn't seem realistic.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I have to go with HHH/Rock as well. It is easily the more entertaining match from bell to bell, even if it suffers from a screwy ending. But the ending to HBK/Bret sucks too. Not in that Shawn wins which, IMO, was the proper ending, but the whole going the distance and then restarting only to end it in 2 minutes was retarded.

[CanadianChris 0]

I've always liked Rock/HHH better. It was interesting from start to finish, whereas you could just skip the first half of Bret/HBK. There were a lot of fun little wrinkles in the match, too, like the spot where HHH cracks Rock with a chair and gets DQed, but gets the fall right back when he just pins Rock while he's still knocked out from the chair shot. Plus, the commentating was better with JR and King instead of Vince and King.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Right, it's like "What? HBK beat him with the superkick after 2 minutes when he couldn't beat him for 60 minutes using it?" It just didn't make much sense to me. If they had had them each get a fall, and then have the match restart, it could have still given Bret the out of "I got screwed by Monsoon", but made the ending more believable.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

My thoughts on Bret vs. Shawn

 

Bret and Shawn worked very hard, but they had a terrible crowd, a terrible announcing team, and there were just so many little things that dragged the match down.

 

Rock vs. Hunter was a better match, but it wasn't great by any means. The crowd were a lot more receptive to the match and were into both men which helped. The commentary was very good, with Ross and Lawler doing a nice job of telling the story of the match.

 

 

[theintensifier 0]

Bret/Shawn has been, and probably always will be overrated. Meltzer gave it ****1/4 - **** for Rock/HHH. ****1/4 for Lesnar/Angle - ***1/2 for HHH/Benoit. Personally, HHH/Rock is the best out of the four, more action, good story telling, crowd heat, and both men were motivated.

 

HBK and Hart aren't a match in the ring, unlike HHH/Rock.. They generally refuse to work hard with each other, not wanting to put the other man over in the slightest, which hurts the match considerably. The only match I can recall that was good between the two was the SurSer '92 match, long before the hatred, jealousy, and insecurity from 1996. The Iron Man match could have been great, Shawn and Bret both were very capable workers at that point in time, but their unprofessionalism hindered whatever they could have possibly accomplished. I haven't seen the match in a few years, but I remember enough to know that it's boring, and not worth viewing.

 

[4hartthreat 0]

I guess I'll be the first, and possibly only, one to take the Bret-Shawn match.

 

I'll just copy my post from the thread chp referenced:

 

Ah, I love when this topic comes up, and it always does right about now, Mania time.

 

The Ironman match is a classic. My favorite match.

 

 

The rest hold thing is what gets me the most, well that and the no falls thing. They were going an hour! Going into the match they knew they were going an hour. So of course they were going to use rest holds to not only conserve their own energy, but also to wear down the other guy. And the no falls thing was one of the BEST things about the match. It was the main event of WM, the biggest show of the year. The title meant everything to Bret, it was his life. It was Shawn's dream to win it and to do so he had to go through Bret. So that belt meant so much to both guys, and they both didn't want to lose the first fall because it meant they'd be playing catch up from there. So both guys fought their asses off to not lose that first, and as even the announcers constantly pointed out, crucial fall. Also, unlike just about any other match in WWF/E history, they went out of their way to show how hard Bret and Shawn were training for this match. With all of this in mind, it should be more than believeable that they could go that long without a fall.

 

The one thing I do agree with most on is the overtime. I don't think it made any sense and still don't like that it happened. But that being said it didn't take away from the match, in fact it kind of added to it. Going back to the how much the title meant to both guys thing, it took two superkicks to keep Bret down, because he did not want to lose his title on the biggest show of the year.

 

 

How so many people can shit on this match then turn around and praise that crapfest that was the Rock-HHH ironman match is beyond me....

[RepoMan 0]

I'm suprised the vast majority likes HHH/Rock over Shawn/Bret, given what I feel like it's near legendary status in the IWC. I totally agree. I was bored to death watching Shawn/Bret until the overtime. I was expecting an exciting match with multiple falls. That's what HHH/Rock gave us, plus the UT coming back made me mark out watching it.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I was unaware that Shawn/Bret had obtained legendary status. I thought most people remembered it as a boring, drawn out affair with a crappy ending.

 

I haven't seen either match in ages, but I remember liking the HHH/Rock match much better. Overall, I've never been a huge fan of Iron Man matches. As a concept, they seem like a great idea, but I don't think that the actual delivery ever matches up with expectations. I think it's too difficult to get the pacing and suspense right in a match that's set to go 60 minutes.

[4hartthreat 0]

I was unaware that Shawn/Bret had obtained legendary status. I thought most people remembered it as a boring, drawn out affair with a crappy ending.

 

Funny, that's how I tend to remember the hhh-rock ironman match...

[Dandy 0]

Serious question: Are you a mark for Hart? If you are, it could make you lean to that match toward bias. Nothing wrong with that, just curious because of your name.

 

[LooseCannon25 0]

I always though HBK vs. Hart was boring, and can't watch the full match at all.

 

HHH vs. The Rock was much more exciting and dramatic.

[Epic Reine 0]

In terms of overall match quality, HHH/Rock but the story and intensity is much better with HBK/Bret.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I hated both of these matches.

 

HBK/Hart WAS boring until the end.

 

And Rock/HHH....my god how much I hate this match. They don't even make contact for the first 10 minutes...and then there's a fall a couple minutes later.

 

Then they roll through like 10 more finishes in the next 45 minutes. Yeah...it's really an overrated piece of shit. And then taker blew the finish.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

I remember there was an Angle/Benoit half hour submission only Iron Man match. It was awesome.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I've always enjoyed Michaels / Hart the best. Two of the best wrestlers at the time, both loved by the fans, going out there for an entire hour "giving it their best" to be the WWF Champion. To me, it was really exciting and still is just to watch straight up wrestling as you had a clash with Hart's grounded technical style with Michaels' ground / aerial hybrid style. No interference, no cheating, none of that crap. I didn't mind the 0-0 tie either,

 

Of course, it would've been much better had Michaels grabbed the rope after awhile during the Sharpshooter spot and getting Sweet Chin Music on Hart and winning the title at the last minute instead of the sudden death finish, but I always they did that on purpose to leave Hart / Michaels feud open since it begun the Hart Getting Screwed Constantly angle.

 

Why did Taker return to ruin a title match that he had no buisness with anyway? He had been gone for over 6 months, I didn't quite get why he was involved other than to say "Hey, Undertaker's back, he's a biker, and he wants a title shot."

 

I always looked at The Undertaker coming to help out the Rock (since he was getting ambushed by the McMahon-Helmsley Faction), which backfired and caused the Rock to lose the title via DQ. Also, the Undertaker had unfinished business with both Vince and HHH.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Usually when I watch HBK/Hart, I only watch the last thirty minutes, but taken just within that context, I think it's a pretty classic WWF match.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Would the Hart/HBK match be remembered differently if it wasn't an Iron Man match? Does it help or hurt the legacy of the match that it went to the sixty minute draw with the questionable overtime? Would it be more fondly remembered if Shawn beat Bret clean after 62 minutes in a straight match?

[King Cucaracha 0]

Judging by the automatic love for the Cena/HBK match from Raw, I'd say the latter. If nothing else the fact there were no falls really hurt the crowd reaction with the Ironman rules, in a way that it wouldn't in a one fall match. Everybody knew they were going 60 so the drama was really lacking at points in the match, from a fan POV.

 

Look at it this way. In a one fall match, the longer it goes the more likely the match is to end and the more into nearfalls you are. In the Ironman setting, the longer the match went, the more you suspected they were either going to go the distance 0-0, or, the more you suspected that any fall would only happen late on. So there'd be more drama surrounding a one fall match that went 60 minutes.

[imajackoff? 0]

Has the Rock/HHH ironman match made it to dvd yet?

 

I've never been a fan of the RestHoldMania 12 main event.

 

I've only seen the Rock/HHH match once, when it happened and I still remember it well.

[Papacita 0]

Out of the two, I probably prefer the HHH/Rock one (even though I hated the finish), I still like HBK/Bret. It wasn't perfect, but I think some of the criticisms are a bit unfair. I really don't see what's so bad/unbelieveable about Shawn or Bret going an hour without being beaten. While it wouldn't have hurt the match at all and in a few ways could've benefit it, at the end of the day I do agree with the notion that in a match between two guys who you're selling as the two best wrestlers in the company, with more than a month of build up stressing just how hard the two had been training, they really shouldn't have been getting a lot of falls over one another and I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to go distance without beating each other.

 

I also don't get the hate for the overtime; it made perfect sense within the overall context of the story. Psychology gaps aside, the 60 minutes were more about strategy than anything else, and once the overtime was announced, Bret was pissed. At that point, it became less about trying to outwrestle Shawn and more about taking his frustration out on him, and that lapse in concentration led to him getting hit with the Superkick. I like it because it puts both guys over as equals, and even though the ending was a bit screwy, it was done in a way where neither guy could really be made to look bad and it left room for the fans to take sides leading up the the eventual rematch. I thought this was much better than the B.S. finish to the second one, which really didn't seem to help anybody IMO.

[Jericholic82 0]

Rock-HHH for me by a long shot. Though I liked some parts of the Shawn/Bret one. But for some reason I can get more into the Rock-HHH one. Maybe it is the crowd, maybe it is the announcing. The end doesn't bother me much cuz it was exciting and a memorable return by Taker. Sure the blew the timing but thats about the only problem I had with it.

 

And Taker was clearly there to take out Vince and his goons. even JR said "he's coming for McMahon" Remember it ws Vince who "suspended" Taker in September 1999 (to explain his absence to injury).

 

the match should have made it to dvd by now (I have the original WWF Home Video VHS version, I need to burn to dvd cuz that whole show was a good one, with a Benoit/Jericho submission match as well as a fun Eddy/Saturn/Malenko 3 way for the Euro title, and a hot 6 man tag opener with 2 Cool/Rikishi vs TEAM ECK)

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Psychology gaps aside, the 60 minutes were more about strategy than anything else, and once the overtime was announced, Bret was pissed. At that point, it became less about trying to outwrestle Shawn and more about taking his frustration out on him, and that lapse in concentration led to him getting hit with the Superkick. I like it because it puts both guys over as equals, and even though the ending was a bit screwy, it was done in a way where neither guy could really be made to look bad and it left room for the fans to take sides leading up the the eventual rematch.

 

Well said.