Darth Pipes 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Fair points. Having a heel champion was the way to go in the NWA (and it made for great TV) but I often wondered how the NWA would have done if they let one of the popular faces be champ. Now it all fairness, Magnum TA was supposed to be that guy but we know what happened. Having a heel (Flair) champion for so long and not seeing popular performers win the might not have been the best business strategy. I mean, if business was so great with the Horsemen, why was Crockett forced to sell the company? There was a lot of political games that went on in JCP, especially between Dusty and Flair. Flair hated Luger and that's why he never dropped the title to him. Rhodes wanted Rick Steiner to take over the Starrcade 88 main event spot and squash Flair in five minutes to win the belt. Not surprisingly, Flair fought this and the power struggle left Rhodes out of the company. I would say though that the Horsemen did make the faces look better than the NWO. But in the end, as you pointed out, the faces could never get the titles away from the faces. I mean, did it help Ron Garvin that after he couldn't get the World title away from Flair in 86, that he couldn't get the TV title away from Arn afterwards? In fairness, Dusty's booking (nonstop Dusty finishes) and overspending helped to drive Crockett into the ground financially. Also, Crockett never should have tried to compete with Vince on a national level. Although I think the NWA had much better wrestling and storylines. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarKnight 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 Tazz is my hero for mentioning the Cabinet as the worst faction ever, as I always considered them along with X-Factor to be the worst or 2nd worst. At least with X-factor though, X-Pac is a decent worker, and Justin Credible wasn't bad either, and Albert wasn't an awful worker or anything, but the Cabinet were just awful. JBL sucks and can't work, Orlando Jordan sucks and can't work, and the Bashams sucked and couldn't work. And worst yet, they put titles on these guys! I really liked Jim Ross mentioning the No Limit Soldiers as his pick for the worst faction as well, because I think they were a big factor in WCW's downfall in 1999. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darth Pipes 0 Report post Posted September 21, 2008 X-Factor...thank you for reminding me of them. Kurt Angle tried to have a faction with him, Jindrak, and some other guy that didn't do too well. Team Angle was a very cool faction though. They were like The Varsity Club, which was a great faction. Like I said, I think JR would be involved in that angle now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2008 The thing I don't really get about Crockett is why he nearly bankrupted himself buying out a bunch of territories he didn't need. I suppose it was a notion of keeping these areas away from Vince, but Vince didn't think on that level after his brief flirtation with buying the AWA. Crockett was almost too nice of a guy, wanting to buy out all the struggling NWA promoters rather than just sitting back and watching them fold and then run the towns with a mix of that region's stars and his own. Vince was about taking stars, not taking over territories. The WWF ran nationally anyway, so if you're Vince why buy out a bunch of promoters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2008 The thing I don't really get about Crockett is why he nearly bankrupted himself buying out a bunch of territories he didn't need. I suppose it was a notion of keeping these areas away from Vince, but Vince didn't think on that level after his brief flirtation with buying the AWA. Crockett was almost too nice of a guy, wanting to buy out all the struggling NWA promoters rather than just sitting back and watching them fold and then run the towns with a mix of that region's stars and his own. Vince was about taking stars, not taking over territories. The WWF ran nationally anyway, so if you're Vince why buy out a bunch of promoters? Dusty was also spending like a drunken sailor apparently. The way Jim Cornette tells it is that Crocket thought they were going to get a lot of ad revenue from TBS and PPV. They wanted to buy another airplane, and when the accountant checked the books (He was months overdue), they finally noticed they were in the hole like $5 million. As a result, he had to sell to Turner, and then he started signing people to ridiculous contracts because he knew he wasn't going to have to pay them. I think what killed Crockett big time is buying the UWF and screwing up that invasion angle (Sound familiar) because of egos involved. When Crockett tried to run Watts' old towns after having the old UWF guys look inferior, he fell flat. Consequently, the people in the Carolinas and Mid-Atlantic, Crockett's base, didn't care too much for the Mid-South guys either. Another thing to remember: JCP was a mom and pop organization run in basically a strip-mall office in Charlotte, while at the same time, Titan Sports was being run like a major company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2008 Yeah wasn't that attack on Dusty by the Horsemen done outside of the Crockett office? I couldn't help but think it looked like a very small time operation. The UWF was the biggest example of Crockett's spending. Why bother with it? He should have let Watts go under, let Vince sign who he wanted, then sign the guys who would fit the NWA. That's what happened anyway since guys like Duggan, Dibiase, and One Man Gang went to the WWF, while Steve Williams and all the other guys ended up in the NWA. The only guy they ended up with that Vince might have really wanted was Sting, but he already had the Warrior so I'm not sure if WWF needed another painted face. Then the NWA could have run the UWF towns, kept those local stars strong, and it might have worked out better. It's eerie once you think about it...Crockett's demise in 1988 was due to many of the same reasons as WCW's a decade or so later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2008 Yeah wasn't that attack on Dusty by the Horsemen done outside of the Crockett office? I couldn't help but think it looked like a very small time operation. The UWF was the biggest example of Crockett's spending. Why bother with it? He should have let Watts go under, let Vince sign who he wanted, then sign the guys who would fit the NWA. That's what happened anyway since guys like Duggan, Dibiase, and One Man Gang went to the WWF, while Steve Williams and all the other guys ended up in the NWA. The only guy they ended up with that Vince might have really wanted was Sting, but he already had the Warrior so I'm not sure if WWF needed another painted face. Then the NWA could have run the UWF towns, kept those local stars strong, and it might have worked out better. It's eerie once you think about it...Crockett's demise in 1988 was due to many of the same reasons as WCW's a decade or so later. Crockett bought UWF because, as Watts tells it, Jim Ross called him and said, to the extent, "McMahon is about to buy us out and will leave you in the dust." Watts was the #3 company at that point. Watts was about to go head to head with McMahon in an anti-trust suit based out of New Orleans (Watts' home base). Vince wouldn't buy him out because he knew he could bleed Watts dry during litigation. Watts didn't have any other choice but to basically "push" Crockett into buying the UWF with the threat of McMahon becoming even bigger if he got full control of the UWF's properties. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bix 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2008 Crockett bought the UWF primarily for its syndicated network (Jim Ross had built up a pretty solid roster of affiliates all over the US)...which Watts was paying out the ass for. Crockett paid Watts for the right to pay for his TV slots when he could've just waited for Watts to go out of business and taken them over then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Backlund/Studd is a nice little match. Backlund was a good opponent for Studd. His mat wrestling offense meant that Studd did not need to bump much. The Philadelphia Spectrum closes its doors next year. It would be cool if 24/7 aired a couple cards next year in its honor. Summerslam '90 was held there, as well as a PPV so bad it shall not be named. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Again, this info basically backs up what I'm saying. Vince would have just taken some UWF stars he wanted and watched Watts go down in flames. He wouldn't have bothered buying him out or anything that foolish, so Crockett was a fool for buying that line of BS. Besides, why would Crockett give a crap about a syndicated deal when he had NATIONAL TV on TBS? Further, why did Watts splurge for TV deals in towns where he either didn't run or hadn't yet run? Truth be told, in the end Watts was screwed when Turner got the NWA stars back after the WWF experiment tanked. I think Mid South was on TBS for a while but was tossed in favor of the NWA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Again, this info basically backs up what I'm saying. Vince would have just taken some UWF stars he wanted and watched Watts go down in flames. He wouldn't have bothered buying him out or anything that foolish, so Crockett was a fool for buying that line of BS. Besides, why would Crockett give a crap about a syndicated deal when he had NATIONAL TV on TBS? Further, why did Watts splurge for TV deals in towns where he either didn't run or hadn't yet run? Truth be told, in the end Watts was screwed when Turner got the NWA stars back after the WWF experiment tanked. I think Mid South was on TBS for a while but was tossed in favor of the NWA. -Syndicated TV still meant a great deal to promoters because cable was still in its relative infancy. Crockett still had his syndicated World Wide program to consider along with the cable broadcast TBS show. It was very beneficial to go to a local television station, hand them a check and a tape, and have the program broadcast on over-the-air television that everyone got as opposed to a cable station that only some people got. -Watts splurged for TV deals in towns he wasn't running so he could possibly venture there one day. When TBS expanded into Ohio and Michigan, Georgia Championship Wrestling saw an influx of fan letters from that region. It allowed them to run a "northern" tour in those states, and they did great business for a while. With Vince having gone national, Watts knew he had to expand his television coverage as much as possible. -Watts was going to be the promotion on TBS after the GCW/WWF situation, but the story is that Crockett paid Turner off handsomely to make sure his program was broadcast on TBS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spaceman Spiff 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 and the Bashams sucked and couldn't work. Hey, now, Doug Basham was a pretty good worker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2008 Yeah, I understand that Watts was planning to run in those areas some day and hence paying those stations, but why? I listened to an interview with the One Man Gang a while back (of all people) and he said even back then he felt it was foolish for all of these promoters to try and expand nationally to compete with Vince and that Watts needed to focus on his backyard. Ironically enough one promotion that lasted for years after the expansion era was Memphis/USWA and they mainly focused on their main towns. Jarrett did buy out WCCW and when he saw it really wasn't working trying to run out of both Memphis and Dallas he moved everything to Memphis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2008 Yeah, I understand that Watts was planning to run in those areas some day and hence paying those stations, but why? I listened to an interview with the One Man Gang a while back (of all people) and he said even back then he felt it was foolish for all of these promoters to try and expand nationally to compete with Vince and that Watts needed to focus on his backyard. Ironically enough one promotion that lasted for years after the expansion era was Memphis/USWA and they mainly focused on their main towns. Jarrett did buy out WCCW and when he saw it really wasn't working trying to run out of both Memphis and Dallas he moved everything to Memphis. This is just an assumption of things, but I'm guessing Watts thought he could be a viable alternative to the Vince since he provided a very athletic/competition based promotion instead of a cartoon based promotion. The other thing that absolutely killed Watts and forced him to scrap the national expansion is when the oil bubble burst during the mid 80's. Watts has repeatedly said that it absolutely killed all entertainment in Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Mississippi (The core area of the UWF). No one had surplus money to spend because the economies of those states were tied so heavily to the oil industry (A similar situation that Watts mentioned is when The Sheik was losing money out the ass in Detroit when the automobile industry went under - everything else in that area had a connection to that core industry). As a result, Watts was losing a ridiculous amount of money every week. He was going to file an anti-trust suit against Vince in New Orleans (Where Watts had a definite home field advantage), although he did give Vince the option to buy him out. Vince, knowing it was a sucker's deal, basically told Watts to go ahead and sue him because he knew the lawsuit would be tied in court for a long time, and Watts would eventually run out of money anyways. Watts knew this as well, and that caused him and Jim Ross to approach Crockett. Watts had a good talent base and a very good television program (I still wish the WWE would cut a deal with Watts' ex-wife to get Mid-South on WWE 24/7). He could have made a nice attempt at a national promotion, but even if he did... Vince still probably would have crushed him in the end. It would have been even more interesting if he had gotten the TBS deal that Crockett did in the wake of the GCW/WWF situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirk angel 0 Report post Posted October 11, 2008 I liked this months roundtable. Hayes had some pretty good shiek stories Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darth Pipes 0 Report post Posted October 12, 2008 You know, I was just expecting the usual from the Big John Studd HOF profile (the Andre match) but it was pretty good and did a comprehensive (as comprehensive as 47 minutes could be) look at his career. You see his original WWWF stint as one-half of the Executioners, follwed by footage from the Mid-Atlantic, AWA, Florida, back to the WWF where we see the beginning of his body slam feud with Andre in February 1983, finally to the WMI match, and his victory at the 89 RR. Pretty cool stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted October 12, 2008 I liked this months roundtable. Hayes had some pretty good shiek stories The Sheik/Andre legends roundtable has always been my favorite. Hayes telling the story about how Sheik almost got him arrested at a D.E.A. checkpoint is priceless as is Rhodes telling the story about how Andre pissed on him in a whorehouse in New Orleans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MillenniumMan831 0 Report post Posted October 12, 2008 You flush Mike Graham out of that panel and that was as close to a perfect episode as they've had when it came to entertainment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrVenkman PhD 0 Report post Posted October 12, 2008 Anytime you get Iron Sheik calling Mean Gene an intelligent jew, it's a thumbs up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Anytime you get Iron Sheik calling Mean Gene an intelligent jew, it's a thumbs up. I thought he was calling his manager Fred Blassie an intelligent Jew in that interview. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirk angel 0 Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Anytime you get Iron Sheik calling Mean Gene an intelligent jew, it's a thumbs up. I thought he was calling his manager Fred Blassie an intelligent Jew in that interview. Later in the interview I believe he called Gene Mean an intelligent Jew businessman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2008 Check out the Studd/Andre cage match, fast forward to the finish if you must. Holy crap how did Studd survive that vertical splash? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KingPK 0 Report post Posted October 17, 2008 If you watch it again, Andre landed on his feet first to absorb the impact and then sat back onto Studd. He would have crushed Studd's ribs if he put his full weight on him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted October 17, 2008 Just wondering but is Mean Gene actually Jewish or is this another case of the Sheik being a nutjob? As far as Studd goes, the guy is their HOF star of the month and it seems like he has jobbed in 80% of the matches they've shown, aside from a couple of countout wins over Hogan and Backlund. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darth Pipes 0 Report post Posted October 17, 2008 If you watch it again, Andre landed on his feet first to absorb the impact and then sat back onto Studd. He would have crushed Studd's ribs if he put his full weight on him. That must have been awful on Andre's knees. He was having problems enough with his health at that point. About Studd losing 80% of his matches...that's a major WWF heel in the eighties for you. They just weren't give big wins even if they were big stars. I read someone once wondering if Studd got to win the 1989 Royal Rumble because of all those jobs he did back to Hogan, Andre, and Backlund. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boner Kawanger 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2008 I really wish they'd have put his Rumble win up. Are there highlights in the Hall of Fame video? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heyguesswhatidid 0 Report post Posted November 5, 2008 Superstar is so fucked up in his match with Backlund, you have to see how stoned he looks in his pre-match promo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darth Pipes 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2008 Superstar is so fucked up in his match with Backlund, you have to see how stoned he looks in his pre-match promo. I haven't seen that one yet but they have the match before this one on his DVD and it starts off with a stoned and burned-out Graham cutting a promo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boner Kawanger 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2008 From JR's blog- Cowboy Bill Watts is set to be a panelist on the next round of the WWE Legends Roundtables to be produced in December. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonddust 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2008 From JR's blog- Cowboy Bill Watts is set to be a panelist on the next round of the WWE Legends Roundtables to be produced in December. Hot damn! That should make for some interesting discussions... Too bad the WWE can't cut a deal with Watts' ex-wife to get the Mid-South library. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
