EVIL~! alkeiper Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Cliff Lee is now 17-2 on a team that is 55-66, so he's +15 while the rest of his team is -26. Has there ever been a greater differential for a single pitcher in relation to his team? Steve Carlton went 27-10 in 1972, +17 on a team that went 59-97 (-38).
Bruiser Chong Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Gavin Floyd strikes me as the sort of guy who's got potential, but lacks the ability to put away batters, which makes for a lot of 100-pitch, five-inning outings. Question for Bored: What's the general consensus for what Beane's doing out there? I get the feeling from various online outlets that his once universal recognition as some sort of genius mad scientist has been damaged the last two years. Is there a feeling that the team Beane's pieced together through his latest wave of moves is going to be able to compete in a year or two? It's a shame Beane was able to construct some great teams with minimal resources and in the end, don't have a terrible amount to show for it.
Bored Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 I think the general consensus is back to what it was going into the season, he's completely rebuilding the franchise in hopes of the being a serious contender again by 2010 and beyond to when/if they move into Cisco Field. The first few months of this season I think gave many A's fans a false hope that maybe we wouldn't be waiting that long but reality has set in that this is a terrible team that is no where close to contending. I really have no clue at this point if it's going to workout but for his sake it better as I think pretty much his whole legacy hinges on what happens in the next two to three years. They have a scary amount of pitching talent but there still doesn't seem to be a whole lot of help on the way when it comes to the offense. We thought Daric Barton was going to be something special but his rookie season has been a disaster.
Bruiser Chong Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 I like how Kurt Suzuki only needed to get a flyball for the A's to win the game and then on the 3-2 pitch, he gets one that keeps sailing and sailing and just barely gets out for the walk-off homer. For as much shit as I rightfully give Hawk, he's able to be blunt about the team's performance when it is not good. They made a lot of mental mistakes tonight and he flat out said they didn't deserve to win.
Bored Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 It was also cool that he hit it after getting knocked on his ass a few pitches earlier.
Bruiser Chong Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Yeah, Hawk was getting really righteous about that. "You want to lean into one, THERE'S a fastball!" Two pitches later, the game's over. Awesome.
Guest WhackingCockDick Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Hawk better not have an issue with "leaning into one," what with Carlos Quentin setting up shop over home plate every time he's up.
USC Wuz Robbed! Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 K-Rod ties his personal high with 47 saves, this one against Cleveland. And it's only August!
jwest27 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Geez, what happened to Aaron Harang? He's looking pretty bad right now. Not that I'm complaining.
2GOLD Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 K-Rod ties his personal high with 47 saves, this one against Cleveland. And it's only August! What is the record again? 60?
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Yeah, 57 by Bobby Thigpen in 1990. It's a bit of a mixed blessing. It's a nice mark, yeah. But in a way it's so utterly pointless.
Mike wanna be Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 It applauds mediocrity. Either your offense is failing to put up out-of-save-range run support, or they ARE putting up those numbers and the rest of the pitching staff is mediocre enough to constantly let the other teams back into games in order to be in that many save situations.
snuffbox Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Really reaching for something to complain about there.
naiwf Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 If saves don't matter than why do relievers make as much money as they do? As a Mets fan, I've seen enough blown saves in the last 10 years to fully appreciate what K-Rod is doing. The 3 run save is overrated, but I don't see any reason to act like it's a stat that has no real meaning.
Mike wanna be Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 I'm not complaining, I'm trying to see if I get what al was saying, for the record. I think it's pretty impressive to close out that many games, but then again the Mets have guys like Schoeneweis, Heilman, Feliciano, Sanches, & Smith closing out games in Wagner's stead so any kind of end-game success is impressive.
treble Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 It's a stupid way to evaluate pitchers, that's why it's a pointless record. Is the reason K-Rod is good is because he has so many saves?
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 I think the save is a pointless stat because really, it says little about the ability of the closer, other than that he is the closer. Compare Francisco Rodriguez to Joe Nathan, who I think everyone would agree is a tremendous closer. Rodriguez has saved 46 and blown five, while Nathan has saved 33 and blown three. Rodriguez's ERA is 2.86, Nathan's is a minuscule 1.05. Nathan has pitched slightly more innings and has better peripherals. Nathan has the track record to back this up. I think it is reasonable to say Nathan is a better closer. If Rodriguez breaks the save record, does that really change any of that? It does not mean Rodriguez is the best closer in the league, it simply means Rodriguez received the most opportunities. The save does not really measure a reliever's usefulness, just a specific situation. To draw an extreme example, look at Jim Konstanty's 1950 season. 22 saves, hardly impressive. But 152 innings (all in relief), 16 wins, the MVP award for a pennant winning team. He was used in a different manner than relievers of today. He was still an extremely clutch pitcher that year. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to find an example of a pitcher who was good at closing games, but had bad supporting statistics. A good closer should have good performance numbers such as ERA, WHIP, strikeouts, etc. A bad closer would have bad statistics. So what does the save statistic really add to any of that?
strummer Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 If saves don't matter than why do relievers make as much money as they do? As a Mets fan, I've seen enough blown saves in the last 10 years to fully appreciate what K-Rod is doing. The 3 run save is overrated, but I don't see any reason to act like it's a stat that has no real meaning. Saves are like RBI, they're all about opportunity Danny Graves compiled several gaudy save total seasons in the early mid 2000's but was he really a great pitcher? It's like Joe Carter or Tony Batista putting up 100+ RBI seasons. They were in the right place.
snuffbox Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Looks like this is going to be another unpleasant game.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Crazy game in Allentown. The SWB Yankees scored seven runs in the top of the tenth inning. The IronPigs have scored four and now have the tying run at the plate. Edit: Steven Jackson to relieve, the Yankees have actually emptied their bullpen. They are literally covering the bullpen mound.
TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Any Melky Cabrera sightings?
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Any Melky Cabrera sightings? Nope. Believe he reports tomorrow.
TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 His replacement, Brett Gardner, had 3 hits today including a game winning RBI single in the 13th inning.
naiwf Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Saves are like RBI, they're all about opportunity Again, if those stats are so meaningless why do GMs pay so much for guys who put up high numbers in those categories? I'm all for baseball reducing the importance of certain stats, but it just seems silly to act like a guy who routinely executes when given opportunities shouldn't be recognized for it.
snuffbox Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Maybe you just need to be a fan of teams like the Mets or Brewers (hi, Derrick!) to see that the closer role doesn't just run like happy clockwork.
Bored Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 Maybe naiwf is too young to remember Steve Phillips trading Jason Isringhausen for Proven Veteran Closer Billy Taylor in 1999. Of course it's entirely possible that naiwf is Steve Phillips.
strummer Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Again, if those stats are so meaningless why do GMs pay so much for guys who put up high numbers in those categories? I'm all for baseball reducing the importance of certain stats, but it just seems silly to act like a guy who routinely executes when given opportunities shouldn't be recognized for it. Great relief pitching is obviously important but the save stat in and of itself is meaningless. If a GM simply looks at saves and not peripheral stats (BB/9, K/9, WHIP) than he is an idiot. See Steve Phillips/Billy Taylor circa 1999. Like Al mentioned earlier, Joe Nathan has had a better season than Rodriguez but is getting no attention because he has far fewer saves. This is not to say that Rodriguez isn't great, he is, but not because he has so many saves. Edit: Ha! Bored beat be to the Steve Phillips/Billy Taylor reference!
naiwf Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 I guess maybe that's why I don't appreciate the magnificence of Billy Wagner. Blowing games is insignificant if you have great peripherals. Whatever, it's not even worth arguing about since my team's bullpen has sucked for at least a decade regardless of who has been a part of it.
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