workers who get called great but you disagree

[Star Ocean 3 0]

and screw Kevin Steen

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

TAKE THAT BACK!!!

[Mos_Def 0]

I don't think Douglas was overrated simply because few called him great to begin with. I put Douglas in a similar class to Jeff Jarrett, in that he's solid in all areas but not great in any one thing; he's your typical utility guy.

 

Ted DiBiase was a great in-ring worker because he was very good at everything he did, never looked bad, and could have good to great matches with a variety of workers. He could also get some good matches out of some real stiffs. As has been said, his best body of work is in Mid-South, but you shouldn't forget his work in Georgia, where he was able to show he could excel at the non-wrestling side of things. To dismiss his work because it didn't happen in front of large crowds, which is inaccurate in itself, is most definitely being ignorant.

 

Although including Douglas wasnt in the spirit of the thread title, I invoked his name because at one point fans, and himself, hyped him up as one of the better wrestlers in the business, when in fact he has always pretty sorry. If he wasnt considered good, why would there be this incessant whining over his "misuse" by the WWF?

 

As far as Dibiase, I concede that he is technically good and sound. He's talented, but where are all his great matches? This is a guy that people have called the best worker in his era. He didnt do anything great in the WWF, and I have yet to see what was so special about him in mid-south. Youtube me something from him.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Try the Flair/DiBiase match for the NWA title. DiBiase plays an awesome sympathetic face here.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Try the Flair/DiBiase match for the NWA title. DiBiase plays an awesome sympathetic face here.

That is one of the all-time greatest angles. Here's a music video highlighting this fantastic angle:

 

[SherQoum 0]

Ric Flair. Completely overrated. His in ring work is very boring, slow, and repetative. Aside from 2 or 3 matches, i have no idea why there is a vocal minority of people who call him the greatest or anywhere near that category. Another falacy people try to prove is Ric flair was a big draw, but the fact remains he was never a big draw, he was a decent good draw, and i have yet to see any sufficient evidence proving that. ( Big draw = Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, Rock).

[Diamonddust 0]

Ric Flair. Completely overrated. His in ring work is very boring, slow, and repetative. Aside from 2 or 3 matches, i have no idea why there is a vocal minority of people who call him the greatest or anywhere near that category. Another falacy people try to prove is Ric flair was a big draw, but the fact remains he was never a big draw, he was a decent good draw, and i have yet to see any sufficient evidence proving that. ( Big draw = Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, Rock).

 

Outside of the Northeast, where did Sammartino draw?

[theone 0]

Ric Flair. Completely overrated. His in ring work is very boring, slow, and repetative. Aside from 2 or 3 matches, i have no idea why there is a vocal minority of people who call him the greatest or anywhere near that category. Another falacy people try to prove is Ric flair was a big draw, but the fact remains he was never a big draw, he was a decent good draw, and i have yet to see any sufficient evidence proving that. ( Big draw = Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, Rock).

Sammartino never drew big houses anywhere besides the north east up in WWWF country

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

Ric Flair. Completely overrated. His in ring work is very boring, slow, and repetative. Aside from 2 or 3 matches, i have no idea why there is a vocal minority of people who call him the greatest or anywhere near that category. Another falacy people try to prove is Ric flair was a big draw, but the fact remains he was never a big draw, he was a decent good draw, and i have yet to see any sufficient evidence proving that. ( Big draw = Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, Rock).

 

I think that I read somewhere that Bruno Sammartino didn't draw very well outside of the Northeast.

[The Truthiness 0]

I don't think Douglas was overrated simply because few called him great to begin with. I put Douglas in a similar class to Jeff Jarrett, in that he's solid in all areas but not great in any one thing; he's your typical utility guy.

 

Ted DiBiase was a great in-ring worker because he was very good at everything he did, never looked bad, and could have good to great matches with a variety of workers. He could also get some good matches out of some real stiffs. As has been said, his best body of work is in Mid-South, but you shouldn't forget his work in Georgia, where he was able to show he could excel at the non-wrestling side of things. To dismiss his work because it didn't happen in front of large crowds, which is inaccurate in itself, is most definitely being ignorant.

 

Although including Douglas wasnt in the spirit of the thread title, I invoked his name because at one point fans, and himself, hyped him up as one of the better wrestlers in the business, when in fact he has always pretty sorry. If he wasnt considered good, why would there be this incessant whining over his "misuse" by the WWF?

 

As far as Dibiase, I concede that he is technically good and sound. He's talented, but where are all his great matches? This is a guy that people have called the best worker in his era. He didnt do anything great in the WWF, and I have yet to see what was so special about him in mid-south. Youtube me something from him.

 

 

There isn't many as one would think, he was a very talented guy, he just doesn't have a huge body of great work.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

To the thread starter,

 

Rhodes was a very successful babyface. He had fantastic charisma, sold beatings incredibly well, staged exciting comebacks, and had just enough fun offense to carry his end. I don't think he transcended the babyface role like a Bret Hart or Jumbo, but he was very excellent at it. He did usually need a great heel like Tully or Flair to get that excellent or great level. But he could have good matches with a Lugar or even the Road Warriors. But yes, I don't think believe was great in the overall sense. Same as Hogan actually, who is about at Dusty's level or a little inferior.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Dusty really was fantastic at his best. The problem is that everyone saw and remembers him post-prime in Jim Crockett's promotion.

 

As for Sammartino, I'm not sure he ever really attempted a big run anywhere else, so I don't know how valid that criticism is.

[Diamonddust 0]

Dusty really was fantastic at his best. The problem is that everyone saw and remembers him post-prime in Jim Crockett's promotion.

 

As for Sammartino, I'm not sure he ever really attempted a big run anywhere else, so I don't know how valid that criticism is.

 

I think that is a big criticism for Sammartino, and honestly, Pedro Morales falls into that category as well. They'll always be seen as regional stars in an area that had a huge ethnic fanbase, which only helped their status. Would Bruno have drawn in Florida? Texas? The Carolinas?

 

I know we are talking about the territory days, but even during then... guys like Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Andre the Giant, and The Funks were considered national stars.

[The Truthiness 0]

I'm doubt any of those guys named but Andre and maybe Dusty, were a bigger name nationally then Sammartino.

[theone 0]

I'm doubt any of those guys named but Andre and maybe Dusty, were a bigger name nationally then Sammartino.

uhhh...you're forgetting Harley Race.

 

and as it's been said before...Sammartino hardly ever drew anywhere other than his home territory, hardly the definition of a big national name

[Diamonddust 0]

I'm doubt any of those guys named but Andre and maybe Dusty, were a bigger name nationally then Sammartino.

uhhh...you're forgetting Harley Race.

 

and as it's been said before...Sammartino hardly ever drew anywhere other than his home territory, hardly the definition of a big national name

 

I know I opened the can of worms, but that can be countered by saying Sammartino's home territory was the biggest territory, population-wise, in the country. Being the top dog in New York did mean something nationally, however, he didn't have a track record of being able to branch out and be a draw.

[The Truthiness 0]

He stayed in his territory which was pretty much a bigger market then going down south or going to Japan. I rather be selling out The Garden 2 times a month, then touring the chitling circuit. Bruno might have been the 1st NWA Champion, but he didn't want to do the traveling and work weekends which was a smart business move, seeing as he made a ton of cash.

[theone 0]

I'm doubt any of those guys named but Andre and maybe Dusty, were a bigger name nationally then Sammartino.

uhhh...you're forgetting Harley Race.

 

and as it's been said before...Sammartino hardly ever drew anywhere other than his home territory, hardly the definition of a big national name

 

I know I opened the can of worms, but that can be countered by saying Sammartino's home territory was the biggest territory, population-wise, in the country. Being the top dog in New York did mean something nationally, however, he didn't have a track record of being able to branch out and be a draw.

To me, it speaks much more about a guy if he can draw in Dallas one week, sell out St. Louis the next, fill the house in Orlando that weekend, Charlotte the next wednesday, Minneapolis the following friday, etc. than being able to consistently draw in only one area and never really leaving it.

 

Had he not been in a territory FULL of Italian fans...he probably wouldn't have even seen the success he did see, IMO.

[The Truthiness 0]

I'm doubt any of those guys named but Andre and maybe Dusty, were a bigger name nationally then Sammartino.

uhhh...you're forgetting Harley Race.

 

and as it's been said before...Sammartino hardly ever drew anywhere other than his home territory, hardly the definition of a big national name

 

I know I opened the can of worms, but that can be countered by saying Sammartino's home territory was the biggest territory, population-wise, in the country. Being the top dog in New York did mean something nationally, however, he didn't have a track record of being able to branch out and be a draw.

To me, it speaks much more about a guy if he can draw in Dallas one week, sell out St. Louis the next, fill the house in Orlando that weekend, Charlotte the next wednesday, Minneapolis the following friday, etc. than being able to consistently draw in only one area and never really leaving it.

 

Had he not been in a territory FULL of Italian fans...he probably wouldn't have even seen the success he did see, IMO.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter what kind of fans he drew, he was in a bigger market, and had a bigger presence nationally than anybody else at the time. Plus, the guys selling out them places you named all the time, was hardly the case. They had their main markets just like Bruno. Harley biggest draw might've been St. Louis and Kansas City territories, however that market died with him as the top guy, can't really say that about Bruno. He was a huge draw in NYC, PA, NJ, Canada, and when he traveled to Los Angeles he was a huge success also. It wasn't that Bruno couldn't draw in places like Alabama, he didn't have too. He was in the best territory in the world. Why leave it?

 

 

[Jingus 0]

We can debate over why Bruno never left his territory. But one thing you can't debate is that he never did leave that territory, besides a few cameos for in Japan for Baba and such which were mostly inconsequential. If having a stranglehold on one particular geographic area is considered being great, then Jerry Lawler must be the greatest of all time. He consistently drew houses in Memphis which were proportionately bigger than the ones Bruno had in New York when you compare the relative populations available to draw fans from, and did it over a longer period of time too.

 

Also, the "why leave the Northeast?" argument falters somewhat when you consider Andre. His home base was definitely the WW(W)F, but he was constantly taking trips all over the world to work everywhere, and apparently made more money doing it that way. Sammartino didn't have the level of international superstar recognition to do that. He might've if he really applied himself and tried hard, but his simplistic wrestling style and his appeal-limiting racial gimmick would not have helped him.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Apples and oranges with Sammartino and Andre. Andre HAD to travel. If he stayed in one territory, he would have killed it.

[Diamonddust 0]

We can debate over why Bruno never left his territory. But one thing you can't debate is that he never did leave that territory, besides a few cameos for in Japan for Baba and such which were mostly inconsequential. If having a stranglehold on one particular geographic area is considered being great, then Jerry Lawler must be the greatest of all time. He consistently drew houses in Memphis which were proportionately bigger than the ones Bruno had in New York when you compare the relative populations available to draw fans from, and did it over a longer period of time too.

 

Also, the "why leave the Northeast?" argument falters somewhat when you consider Andre. His home base was definitely the WW(W)F, but he was constantly taking trips all over the world to work everywhere, and apparently made more money doing it that way. Sammartino didn't have the level of international superstar recognition to do that. He might've if he really applied himself and tried hard, but his simplistic wrestling style and his appeal-limiting racial gimmick would not have helped him.

 

The reason Andre moved around is because the mystique and intrigue of seeing a "giant" would have been dead if he stayed in one place too long. Vince Sr. saw this, and that is why he put Andre on a constant travel schedule. Andre coming to a territory would then actually mean something as opposed to him appearing months on end.

[Jingus 0]

I've heard that argument before, and never quite agreed with it. There are plenty of examples of Andre working long programs in one territory, and I've never seen any proof that the houses supposedly died off once he stayed in one place for too long. Of course the sideshow novelty aspect of his appeal meant that he was an unique guarantee to draw big crowds in places he'd never been before, but he was easily a smart enough worker to maintain the momentum once he was already there.

 

I've just never understood why Bruno was so popular. I understand that apparently Italians in NYC from the 50s to the 80s were so oddly proud of their heritage that they'd show up by the thousands just to cheer a guy who happened to have the same racial background as them. I personally think it's fucking stupid and lowest-common-denominator pandering, but I understand it. But watching Bruno's matches (and I've seen a LOT of his matches), I just don't get it. His entire schtick was the same every time: his heel opponent (always a different racial background, often a foreigner) would kick the shit out of Sammartino for ten minutes, Sammartino would get up and do his fiery arm-waving comeback, and it would all go to a DQ or some other kind of non-decisive finish. It was the exact same routine over and over again, and I suppose he found a formula that worked and stuck with it, but I've never understood why it was so popular. Especially when you see other top performers of the same eras (Thesz, Rocca, Stevens, Rogers, both Funks, Race, etc) who either had much more charismatic gimmicks or much more dynamic wrestling styles, if not both. I guess it'll always be one of those Hulk Hogan mysteries: there's no real way to articulate why he was so beloved, he just was.

[The Truthiness 0]

We can debate over why Bruno never left his territory. But one thing you can't debate is that he never did leave that territory, besides a few cameos for in Japan for Baba and such which were mostly inconsequential. If having a stranglehold on one particular geographic area is considered being great, then Jerry Lawler must be the greatest of all time. He consistently drew houses in Memphis which were proportionately bigger than the ones Bruno had in New York when you compare the relative populations available to draw fans from, and did it over a longer period of time too.

 

Also, the "why leave the Northeast?" argument falters somewhat when you consider Andre. His home base was definitely the WW(W)F, but he was constantly taking trips all over the world to work everywhere, and apparently made more money doing it that way. Sammartino didn't have the level of international superstar recognition to do that. He might've if he really applied himself and tried hard, but his simplistic wrestling style and his appeal-limiting racial gimmick would not have helped him.

 

I'm not really debating why he never left the territory. I was just saying it wasn't really smart for him to leave, seeing as he was in a sweet spot. The thing I took issue with is saying Harley Race and The Funks in their prime were bigger stars nationally then Sammartino, this simply isn't true. The only reason I didn't lump Dusty in with the Funks and Race, because of his run in 80's.

 

I wouldn't say Lawler was ever a bigger draw then Bruno either. I know he probably filled up 10,000 seats every Monday in Memphis, However I think that probably is about 2 MSG shows Bruno headlined in a month. I seriously doubt his peak was anywhere on the level of Sammartino's peak, until Hogan came around I don't think anybody was touching Sammartino's popularity.

 

Edit: I agree Bruno sucks, Jingus. I'm simply saying there weren't many guys more popular and drew bigger houses.

[Diamonddust 0]

We can debate over why Bruno never left his territory. But one thing you can't debate is that he never did leave that territory, besides a few cameos for in Japan for Baba and such which were mostly inconsequential. If having a stranglehold on one particular geographic area is considered being great, then Jerry Lawler must be the greatest of all time. He consistently drew houses in Memphis which were proportionately bigger than the ones Bruno had in New York when you compare the relative populations available to draw fans from, and did it over a longer period of time too.

 

Also, the "why leave the Northeast?" argument falters somewhat when you consider Andre. His home base was definitely the WW(W)F, but he was constantly taking trips all over the world to work everywhere, and apparently made more money doing it that way. Sammartino didn't have the level of international superstar recognition to do that. He might've if he really applied himself and tried hard, but his simplistic wrestling style and his appeal-limiting racial gimmick would not have helped him.

 

I'm not really debating why he never left the territory. I was just saying it wasn't really smart for him to leave, seeing as he was in a sweet spot. The thing I took issue with is, saying Harley Race and The Funks in their prime were bigger stars nationally them Sammartino, this simply isn't true. The only reason I didn't lump Dusty in with the Funks and Race, because of his run in 80's.

 

I wouldn't say Lawler was ever a bigger draw then Bruno either. I know he probably filled up 10,000 seats every Monday in Memphis, However I think that probably is about 2 MSG shows Bruno headlined in a month. I seriously doubt his peak was anywhere on the level of Sammartino's peak, until Hogan came around I don't think anybody was touching Sammartino's popularity.

 

Edit: I agree Bruno sucks, Jingus. I'm simply saying there weren't many guys more popular and drew bigger houses.

 

As Jingus pointed out, Lawler had a much smaller population base to draw in Memphis than Bruno did in New York.

[theone 0]

truthiness is fairly delusional

[The Truthiness 0]

No, I just know that until Hogan came along, Bruno was pretty much the biggest star in wrestling.

[bob_barron 0]

Truthiness is fairly delusional

 

No, you're quite stupid.

 

Some of Bruno's stats at MSG are sick. The guy seemed to sell out the arena on a monthly basis.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Andre was the biggest star, pre-Hogan. When they close-circuited Inoki/Ali throughout the country, they also showed Andre/Wepner from Shea.

 

Is there a record of Bruno going outside WWWF and specifically failing?

[The Truthiness 0]

Not that I've seen.