Has Samoa Joe's time in TNA hurt him?

[dorianb 0]

Before I even begin, I just want to say that I am not trying to disrespect Samoa Joe at all in this topic, I've had the honor to have wrestled him and he is a class act guy without a doubt.

 

I read an excerpt on a website recently (can't remember which site) of an interview with Terry Funk. In the interview, Funk called TNA a "graveyard" for guys that have come there. It got me to thinking about Samoa Joe and how he's seemed to lose some of the steam he once had in wrestling.

 

What I mean by that is, a few years ago when Joe came into TNA, it was quickly viewed as a shot in the arm for the company. People expected great things from Joe with his style in the ring and he delivered. Then after a while, they got Rhino, Christian, Angle and other guys and they began to put him on the back burner. Joe was pretty much made to look like a killer at first. The Chris Daniels/AJ Styles feud was awesome, with Joe beating Daniels to a bloody pulp and carrying the towel with Daniels' blood on it. Joe was an aggressive monster.

 

Once Angle came in, one blood producing headbutt seemed to shift the aggressive tag right over to Angle. They made Joe more traditional, and Joe just isn't a traditional wrestler in any way shape or form. They had him cut regular long-winded TV promos instead of the short and sweet promos they had him cut when he was being pushed as his normal aggressive self. The night he won the title, I felt (and it's only my opinion) like Joe was made to look a little weak in the match, probably not on purpose or anything, but with Angle coming out in his MMA gear and working a more stiff/legitimate MMA looking style as opposed to Joe still working like it's a wrestling match, hurt Joe more than helped when he won.

 

His title reign was weird because they put him in a traditional spot again. Long-winded promos with him chasing Sting, randomly cursing out Nash without ever just slapping him around like he could. They made him look weak and sometime clueless, like he never had any killer instinct or never came into battle alone and anyone that's paid attention to him knows he has that and doesn't necessarily need any guidance.

 

To me, the way he's been handled seems to be taking a toll on him. He doesn't seem as crisp as he once was. That could be because of the matters I stated before or the fact that he doesn't work nearly the amount of fast pace matches like he did when he could work ROH much more frequently. He's having to work guys like Nash and Sting instead of guys like AJ Styles or Chris Daniels. On the Impact where he wrestled in the 3 man gauntlet Nash set up for him, he was more winded in the end than I had ever seem him before and I've watched him go a long time in the ring.

 

My question to everyone else is:

 

Do you see the same change?

If so, why do you think he's changed?

What do you think they should be doing with Joe right now?

 

And of course anything else you want to add. I just was curious as to what everyone else thinks about him.

 

 

[Boner Kawanger 0]

Without a doubt. I still remember the excitement I had to finally see Joe on television (I think this was pre-YouTube, so I had seen very little if any action-by the way, YouTube has kill the notion of any wrestler having mystique but that's another thing altogether). Joe was severely wounded once Angle came into the company, and by the time he won the title, he was booked as such an idiot. Complete turnaround from his debut character. And what was the deal with the angle with Nash? How was this supposed to help Joe at all? First off, the booking made him look inferior to Angle in every way. He's going into the biggest match of his life and needs to train with Kevin Nash? The guy went from being their top wrestler to someone who needed DIESEL to help him prepare. Who is he, Lawrence Taylor? The topper, of course, was Nash constantly telling Joe how he would turn on him eventually, and then he did. Oops.

 

Plus he could have ended his career (and nearly destroyed his groin) doing that stupid ass dropkick on the concrete stairs in the match with Sting. I have a bad feeling that bump will come back to hurt him more than any booking ever did.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

Never liked him. He just now has the bad booking to go along with the bad everything else.

[Boner Kawanger 0]

This is another good point because the few casual fans I know who have watched TNA just view Joe as a fatass, just as Scott Steiner said last night.

[The Truthiness 0]

Never liked him. He just now has the bad booking to go along with the bad everything else.

 

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the guy.

 

I only care when he wrestle certain guys, and seeing as none of them are in TNA, I don't see that changing.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's not just Joe. TNA turns everyone into just another guy, even when they're trying to do their best. They just have no clue how to make anyone a star; even stars who come in aren't stars for long. TNA are in need, and have been for a very long time, of a creative overhaul. They need a fresh perspective on how to book, how to write and everything else. Unfortunately, wrestling being the the backstabbing business that it is, means that's just not going to happen.

[The Truthiness 0]

I agree, but as far Joe goes, it's him I don't like, the booking is just the icing on the cake...

[LuckyLopez 0]

Not to take away from TNA's booking because I think we all agree they missed the boat on when he should have won the title and he lost momentum. And I think we all agree that his character hasn't been handled great at all for the last last year or so. The Nash stuff, Karen Angle duping him, the complaints about money. TNA definitely holds a great deal of blame for the luster Joe's lost.

 

But how many wrestlers really maintain the sort of buzz that Joe had during his peak? Especially with the way Joe's run had. For just under two years Joe was ROH champ working long matches on a regular basis with a regular string of the best wrestlers in the world and just dominating. For a year he dominated in TNA beating everyone he faced and booked against the same sort of talents he was excelling against during his ROH run including that long series with AJ and Daniels.

 

So realistically how long can a wrestler maintain that pace before he runs out of new guys to have matches with, starts getting boring in his domination, or just plain wears down physically from the pace? Most of the guys I can think of who maintained super hot for a long time were more character driven. Even if they were/are great wrestlers their strength was that they could cut the promos and do the charcter work that maintained things. And while I've always been an advocate of Joe's mic skills its still not a strength anywhere near what it is for a Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair, HBK, or others.

 

So while I agree that TNA had a hand in Joe losing luster I kind of have to figure it was inevitable anyway. I remember Joe's last months in ROH when it just seemed like ROH and its fans were over him. There were no new and exciting matches to be had, he couldn't dominate the roster again, it was just time. ROH works at a breakneck pace that burns fans out on wrestlers, IMO, and that's sort of what Joe's big run felt like to me. Eventually he HAD to come down from it. He had to stop working the crazy paces, he had to talk more, he had to start showing more ass and losing matches, and he had to work with talent that was already on top that might not be as good as the talent he was used to. TNA could have handled the whole thing better, I think we all agree. And more to the point TNA messed up more than once with Joe. But even if they did things fine I have to think Joe'd still be less compelling than he was in 2005 simply because it had to come down eventually.

[dubq 0]

I'd like to see Joe go to WWE if only for some of the cool match ups that we'd get out of it. That and having him in a video game that doesn't suck as much ass as the TNA one did.

[Jingus 0]

Lopez, you always find some way to go "well yeah, that's the conventional wisdom, BUT..." and then follow it up with an exceedingly articulate and rather long essay detailing another side of the story. You're right, Joe was handled so well in his opening tenure there that he probably could never again measure up to what he did in the early days. It wasn't just the AJ/Daniels feud either, he could randomly take a momentum-less Chris Sabin or an extremely jet-lagged Jushin Liger or even a half-crippled Amazing Red and do fascinating stuff with them. His matches with different opponents were similar, but never the same. Then they blew their wad FAR too soon on the Joe/Angle dream matches, and it's been downhill ever since then.

 

Also agree with dorian's statement that TNA is trying to shoehorn him into the role of a conventional wrestler, and that's a horrible fit for a guy like Joe. No way in hell should he be feuding with a guy like Nash, who both undermines him in promos and can't work to Joe's style in the ring.

 

Before I even begin, I just want to say that I am not trying to disrespect Samoa Joe at all in this topic, I've had the honor to have wrestled him and he is a class act guy without a doubt.

Aw damn. Hey Scroby, you and I are officially no longer the most experienced guys "in the business" on this board, and we certainly no longer have the coolest stories.

 

Of course, Noah Fentz is still the greatest, since he's a promoter of that fed he always refused to name. And Honkydonkeyman, on his couch!

[Silence 0]

Of course, Noah Fentz is still the greatest, since he's a promoter of that fed he always refused to name. And Honkydonkeyman, on his couch!

 

And smoked with Hawk!

[dorianb 0]

Lol, I'm sure you guys still have very interesting stories to tell. I'm no superstar, that's for sure lol. I just lucked out and got a pretty good (and somewhat painful lol) opportunity.

[BruiserKC 0]

The telling point will be this Sunday at the PPV. If TNA was smart, they'd book Joe to just completely destroy Nash, marking the return of him as the monster and badass he was when he first started. Then we can see if Joe's rep can still be salvaged.

[Boner Kawanger 0]

I thought I'd put this in my post earlier, but the only way for this MEM Angle to work is for Joe to give them all the Booker T-reatment one by one until he destroys Sting but oh wait Sting is the biggest face on the roster.

[DarKnight 0]

Joe is a huge victim of bad booking. He was doing fine in 2005-06, but once Angle came in the company, I felt that TNA just lost all faith in him being their main star. I think Angle came in about right at the time when I thought Joe would get the title, but I think TNA just thought "Man, we have Angle now, let's make him our main star now!" And Joe ever since has been booked badly. He lost clean to Angle, was constantly chasing the title and not getting it, and currently this year, booked as a horrible character who whines about his contract, and was always yelling at Nash, even though he was trying to give him advice. I don't really think Nash should be the heel in the current storyline, as I think he has every right not to like Joe.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

Joe had his chance to fire back at Steiner and blew it. The only reason it came off as Steiner burying the entire roster is because Joe had no comeback.

[CubbyBr 0]

Yeah he could have really went after Steiner talking about how he can barely move and is still trying to wrestle, talking about his inflated body, etc.

[luke-o 0]

When Joe came into TNA, I marked out big time. Having never seen much of ROH or stuff in Japan, I'd never seen Joe wrestle. He blew me away with his style and he instantly became one of my favourites to watch.

 

But he's lost pretty much all of that steam. He's a whinning baby face and hasn't had a 5 star match in God knows how long. Hell, he's barely pulling out 3 star matches. Joe was at his best when he was in the X division (no weight limits blah blah blah) and had smaller guys bump around him. That was awesome to watch.

 

Speaking of Awesome, I can see Kong going down the same route. It's fine when she has smaller girls bump around her but that will dry thin soon and TNA doesn't have the creative talent to make anything new for her.

[DarKnight 0]

Kong may already be getting stale. I still like Kong, but sooner or later, its going to be just like watching the same thing over and over again with nothing new added.

[garfieldsnose 0]

Most of the guys I can think of who maintained super hot for a long time were more character driven.

 

They've been trying to book Joe as more of a character in the past couple years than a badass wrestler. They've been trying different dimensions to his character and it hasn't been working. How can TNA be to blame right now? I think no matter what they booked his character as after his luster wore off as a dominating kickass wrestler, that he was bound to flounder. You could have some of the best creative people, but nothing will top his TNA run of 2005 and 2006. If anything, TNA creative is to blame for Joe seemingly wearing out his welcome after two years. They made him dominate for so long, but gave him the title when it was too late.

[RedJed 0]

Well it has to be said, for those of us who saw the ppv last night, I don't know how anyone can say Joe ISNT being uber-buried. I'm still baffled how Joe was looking strong there, extremely strong as a matter of fact, and then instead of overcoming the odds, he loses to a f'n low blow of all things. Talk about taking the wind out of the sails. After the Bound for Glory burial of sorts, Joe needed a big win here and instead comes up short again. Couple that with the promos that Nash has been doing lately, basically going over the fine line of the kind of promo that just basically kills the person he's talking about when he downplays his abilities, and then when the match happens, he beats him with a weak ass finish to just prove he was right. Nash is notorious for shit like this for years now, basically doing the same kind of shit HHH would pull off and on for years himself against guys who really needed that rub badly, and instead got the exact opposite. I always had a bad feeling that once Nash/Joe would happen, some shit like this would go down, and sure enough......Nash proves the critics correct.

[Jebus 0]

I half-agree.

I don't think Joe is getting "buried"...at least not on purpose. TNA's booking just backfires on them more often than not.

 

They obviously wanted Joe to look strong in defeat so they have him kick out of TWO separate jackknife powerbombs that were sandwiched by numerous exposed turnbuckle shots no less. Joe is looking BAD ASS!

Then, he gets a low blow/roll up/feet on the ropes combo and it's over. Really? After all that punishment, Nash steals it (which I have no problem with) but in pretty tame/anti-climactic fashion.

 

TNA: "We protected Joe". Well, I know what you were going for TNA but, in the end, the man who can survive all that punishment looks kinda silly when losing so "lamely" (is that a word?).

[LuckyLopez 0]

Agreed. TNA seems to be coming at it from the idea that if Joe looks awesome during the match and dominates things then a cheap loss won't hurt him any more than Nash will look awesome getting a win when people know Joe was owning the match. But they forget that its a minority of fans that will watch the match and most people will just know/remember who won the match.

[The Truthiness 0]

That's the thing, Nash didn't "barely win the match", he beat the shit out of Joe for about 10 minutes....Then won with a simple low blow.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

TNA helped Joe by giving him more exposure and hurt him with bad booking. Just like WWE would help him with even more exposure but hurt him with even worse booking. He could be Umaga right now.

[The Truthiness 0]

Out with an Injury, and set to feud with Taker when he comes back?

 

Yeah, I think that beats getting killed by Nash and called a fat jobber ever week.

 

 

[dorianb 0]

Out with an Injury, and set to feud with Taker when he comes back?

 

Yeah, I think that beats getting killed by Nash and called a fat jobber ever week.

 

 

Lol, It'll probably be the same thing, just replace "Nash" with "Taker." They'll probably just let U-Manga fall by the wayside and look un-monster like on his way to "future endeavors." I don't think they care anymore.

[RedJed 0]

Out with an Injury, and set to feud with Taker when he comes back?

 

Yeah, I think that beats getting killed by Nash and called a fat jobber ever week.

 

 

Lol, It'll probably be the same thing, just replace "Nash" with "Taker." They'll probably just let U-Manga fall by the wayside and look un-monster like on his way to "future endeavors." I don't think they care anymore.

 

At least nobody is fooling with Umaga, its not like they are TRYING (apparently) to have him be one, if not THE, top babyface in the company. Comparing Umaga to Joe is way off base, IMO.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

I always felt that, had Joe been saddled with the Umaga character back in '06, that he wouldn't have been pushed nearly as hard as Jamal was based on the fact that:

 

a) Eddie Fatu was already "in" as a former WWE worker.

 

b) Joe would have been coming in from TNA.

[DarKnight 0]

Out with an Injury, and set to feud with Taker when he comes back?

 

Yeah, I think that beats getting killed by Nash and called a fat jobber ever week.

 

You know, if there is one guy I haven't missed at all, it would be Umaga. A feud with the Taker sounds so uninteresting, that I can't describe it.