Let's talk about: Randy Orton's face run

[Epic Reine 0]

I've been wanting to discuss this on this board for awhile now. Randy Orton's terribly booked WWE face run from August 2004 to March 2005. A little backstory:

 

Randy Orton gains steam as an upper mid-card heel fresh off the heels of his hot fued with Mick Foley. Foley puts him over and goes on to become the longest reigning intercontinental champion in years (at that time). Orton finally loses the title to Edge but is protected when he was knocked out by an exposed turnbuckle at the end of the match which was the deciding factor in Edge winning. The rematch wields a similar result as Edge (who was still a face at the time)cheated to win by putting his feet on the ropes retaining the title. Orton moves past the IC title and wins a battle royal on Raw to determine the #1 contender for the world title. After a memorable sequence at the end of the match between Orton and runner-up Chris Jericho, Orton wins the match and goes on to Summerslam. Orton walks into Summerslam and in a very surprising result, cleanly becomes the youngest world champion in WWE history at the age of 24.

 

The next night after defeating Benoit in a rematch with some help of his cohorts, Evolution (Ric Flair, Batista, HHH), to retain his title, Evolution turns on Orton turning him face and sets up a program between Orton and Evolution.

 

A month later at the Unforgiven PPV, HHH destroys Orton and takes back the world title which sets up another program which sees Orton try to go through the members of Evolution to get his hands on HHH and regain the world title.

 

After a fine series of matches with Batista on Raw, Orton starts up a mini-fued with Ric Flair and defeats him in a cage match at the first ever Taboo Tuesday (which eventually became Cyber Sunday). Still pursuing HHH, Orton loses a rematch with Flair with help from HHH himself with a stipulation that if Orton lost then he would never receive anymore title shots as long as HHH is champion. Knowing the odds are against him, Orton recruits some of Raw's top stars in Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho and Maven (two out of three ain't bad) to battle a team captained by HHH at Survivor Series. Orton comes out of the match as the sole survivor of his team, last eliminating HHH. Orton, while not winning back the world title, finally exacted an amount of revenge on HHH.

 

HHH loses the heavyweight championship in a wierd double pin/submission finish at the end of a triple threat match involving Benoit and Edge. Mr. McMahon then holds the title up and Eric Bischoff then makes an Elimination chamber match for the title at New Year's Revolution including HHH, Benoit, Jericho, Edge, Batista and since HHH is no longer the champ, Orton is allowed into the match.

 

At around this time, Batista blows up and teases turning on HHH to go after the world championship himself and Orton after months of chasing starts to gradually lose his heat with the fans. During the chamber match, more seeds are planted for the future HHH/Batista program and Orton comes up short once again, being the last to be pinned by HHH who wins the match and the title.

 

The next night, Bischoff then makes a #1 contender's match for HHH's title for the Royal Rumble pitting Orton against Batista. Due to a miscalculation, Orton pins Batista and sets to face HHH at the Rumble. With the original planned main event for Wrestlemania 21 happening at the Rumble, fans start to wonder what will actually happen at the biggest event of the year. Orton comes up short once again at the Rumble. Batista takes advantage, wins the Rumble match, turns on HHH and defeats him at Mania for the title all to much fanfare. Orton on the other hand, wallows in a pointless fued with Christian following the Rumble before turning heel again to set up his match with the Undertaker at Wrestlemania and the rest is history.

 

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So, what do you all think of Orton's 6 month face run? Liked it? Hated it? Killed by bad booking? Is Orton just not cut out to be a "good guy"? Could WWE booking have stretched out the Orton/HHH program all the way to Wrestlemania?

 

Me personally, I was very into Orton at this point and thought he was over nicely as a face at first before booking killed him and had to turn back heel.

[BruteSquad_BRODY 0]

I was a Orton fan at the time, but the booking of him sucked and only led to me hating HHH more

[garfieldsnose 0]

I didn't see the need to turn him face so soon after winning the title. They could have drug out an angle with Evolution slowly plotting to turn on Orton since he wouldn't forfeit the belt to HHH instead of waiting only 24 hours. However, I also thought if they wanted to do it that quickly, Orton needed some wins against HHH, which he never got (Not counting Survivor Series 2004). It took him three and a half years to regain the steam he had in 2004 and is one of the best in the business today, so I can't say it was a burial (since people like to use that word around here) since he eventually did regain his steam.

[CubbyBr 0]

I wasn't a fan of his face run. He acted pretty much the same as he did as a heel, complete with the gay turnbuckle pose and all.

[Silence 0]

I wasn't a fan of his face run. He acted pretty much the same as he did as a heel, complete with the gay turnbuckle pose and all.

 

He even ran away from Kane and Evolution.

[cabbageboy 0]

Orton is a terrible face since he does nothing to elicit sympathy from the crowd. He sure didn't then anyway. Basically he was good guy because his heel buddies kicked his ass. However, take a look back at the post SS 04 angle on threads here...most people enjoyed that angle and thought it was compelling. The problem wasn't so much the booking, it was Orton not being over as a face. He got screwed and did go through the Evolution guys to get to HHH....it just sucked because Orton was boring and wasn't over.

[Aero 0]

I didn't completely hate his face run at first, but I couldn't buy him as a main eventer for the longest time. One of the worst/most hilarious things that happened during the face run was when they tried to turn him into Stone Cold Randy Orton for the night. It was on a Raw from MSG, and it started out with Orton being barred from the building, only to return at the end of the HHH/Jericho lumberjack match. He ran in, RKO'd all the heels in sight, and when the jobber faces tried to calm him down, they got RKO'd, as well. The whole thing just seemed really forced.

 

I did like the mini-feud with Christian, though. It was a nice break not having him as the main event face whenever that was (February?). And the match on Raw was pretty good, too.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

Aw man, yeah. It took Orton the better part of three years to shake the stigma that hampered him from this run. I mean, quite literally, I cannot think of a time (Rated RKO run aside) where I felt like he would recover from this nonsense until he started punting folk in the head.

 

Such a poorly executed turn, too. I don't want to scream conspiracy, but man, this is just another feud where somebody came out looking incredibly weak against HHH under the most annoying of circumstances. It's almost as if Orton was set up to fail...

[johnson316cane 0]

It didn’t help that they did hackneyed crap like actually have him jump out of a birthday cake to attack Triple H. Like the one poster above said, he didn’t actually do anything to warrant being a face. He got his ass kicked by his heel friends b/c he wouldn’t give up the belt and continued acting like a douche afterwards (RKOing the faces, spitting in Triple H’s face).

[Silence 0]

He got his ass kicked by his heel friends b/c he wouldn’t give up the belt and continued acting like a douche afterwards (RKOing the faces, spitting in Triple H’s face).

 

It also didn't help that it was put in his titantron.

 

[King Cucaracha 0]

Orton is a terrible face since he does nothing to elicit sympathy from the crowd. He sure didn't then anyway. Basically he was good guy because his heel buddies kicked his ass. However, take a look back at the post SS 04 angle on threads here...most people enjoyed that angle and thought it was compelling.

 

That was the first part of the angle. And it was good, it just happened 3 months too quickly and was followed up with garbage. The "he was good guy because his heel buddies kicked his ass" line pretty much describes the booking, so of course it didn't work. I don't think Orton is a natural face, but he wasn't exactly helped by the booking.

 

The problem wasn't so much the booking, it was Orton not being over as a face. He got screwed and did go through the Evolution guys to get to HHH....it just sucked because Orton was boring and wasn't over.

 

Without the entire 2004 catalogue in front of me I've only got one example, but watch Survivor Series 04 and tell me he wasn't over with that crowd.

 

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

The problem wasn't so much the booking, it was Orton not being over as a face. He got screwed and did go through the Evolution guys to get to HHH....it just sucked because Orton was boring and wasn't over.

 

Without the entire 2004 catalogue in front of me I've only got one example, but watch Survivor Series 04 and tell me he wasn't over with that crowd.

 

I would attribute some of his face heat to his very good sub-feud with Ric Flair, of which he was just coming off. Hunter was particularly hated during this period as well. It would be a little over a year later when cheering HHH would become cool again.

 

To get additional perspective on the poorly-booked face run, I would suggest James Guttman's World Wrestling Insanity. A good read overall, but the chapter devoted to the failed HHH programs from 2002-2005 really made the book for me. Particularly the Orton portion of said chapter.

[Chui 0]

I remember his face run in general, but I can't remember any specifics about how he behaved. Looking at him during Evolution and now, I just can't see him as a babyface. He's such a hateable prick. He actually reminds me a lot of one of my best friends, who I'm only friends with because we've been friends for nearly 20 years (and I'm 21, so that's a LONG time) despite the fact that he's a huge prick. I'm sure we've all got friends like that. Some of us might be somebody else's friend like that.

[CubbyBr 0]

I pretty much agree with everyone that says Orton is just unable to come off as a face. He reminds everyone of that high school jock who was an asshole to everyone until someone rightfully put him in his place.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

I think that Orton will become a fantastic anti-hero in the near future. I can feel it. Never a true white-bread babyface (do those even exist anymore, outside of Rey Misterio?) or anything like that, but I've noticed that a lot of fans are being drawn to him. WWE will make efforts to maintain his position as a sick heel, but some people show up to their shows to boo guys like Cena and cheer guys like Orton.

 

As an aside, I am glad that 2008 was good to RKO, injury notwithstanding. He finally became a made man last year, just like Edge became a made man in 2006.

[tobin 0]

I didn't like the face run at all. I thought it was terribly forced and that he was so much more effective as the cocky heel character. However, you can't deny he was building major fan support throughout the summer, and if they hadn't made his character such a geek then maybe he could have sustained that support and become a long-term top babyface. I personally wanted him to stay heel and eventually take over Evolution and oust Triple H, who would then be the babyface challenger heading into Wrestlemania. Of course then we likely wouldn't have seen the ascension of Batista, so one positive did come from the failed turn.

[cd213 0]

I wasn't behind the face run. Like others have said, he was basically buried during that time. This is the first time that I've been entertained by Orton since his RNN injury updates.

[Chazz 0]

I remember during Orton's face run,(right after he lost a World Hvt. Title Match with HHH at The R.R.), they did a cocussion storyline with him for a month and a half that never went anywhere.(This was during the mini Christian/Tomko feud) I also remember him being paired with Stacey Keibler for about a month before he RKO'd her to turn heel again for his W.M. 21 Match with 'Taker.

[Psycho Penguin 0]

I remember him popping out of a cake and attacking HHH a week after the face turn and realizing right then it wasn't going to work. The heel turn around WM was the best thing that could have happened to him. Did e even feud with anyone else besides HHH and Evolution from the August face turn to February heel turn? I remember he faced HHH, maybe faced Flair, faced Batista some times on RAW, faced Evolution at Survivor Series, and faced HHH again at the Rumble.

[tobin 0]

I remember him popping out of a cake and attacking HHH a week after the face turn and realizing right then it wasn't going to work. The heel turn around WM was the best thing that could have happened to him. Did e even feud with anyone else besides HHH and Evolution from the August face turn to February heel turn? I remember he faced HHH, maybe faced Flair, faced Batista some times on RAW, faced Evolution at Survivor Series, and faced HHH again at the Rumble.

 

There weren't really any viable top heel opponents ready for Orton to work with during that time, which made the face turn even more ill-advised. Kane was out filming See No Evil and that feud would have sucked anyway, Christian was firmly a midcard act and he'd already feuded with Edge during the summer.

[Ed Wood Caulfield 0]

One of the worst/most hilarious things that happened during the face run was when they tried to turn him into Stone Cold Randy Orton for the night. It was on a Raw from MSG, and it started out with Orton being barred from the building, only to return at the end of the HHH/Jericho lumberjack match. He ran in, RKO'd all the heels in sight, and when the jobber faces tried to calm him down, they got RKO'd, as well. The whole thing just seemed really forced.

 

Oh God, I actually remember that! That was terrible. And I don't think the crowd reacted much to it either.

 

I also remember when he ran RAW for that one night, he had the Divas strip for him (including Melina before we knew it was her). That, and when he said that Eugene and William Regal would fight La Resistance for the "World Heavyweight Championship."

 

The roles getting reversed with Orton being the heel and Triple H being the face for the WrestleMania 21 match would have been MUCH MUCH better. The face turn happened way too fast. Honestly, he never really did anything that made me think, "This guy is the top face on RAW!"

 

Anyway, by that point in time, wasn't Cena already groomed to be the poster boy for the WWE? Or did that get decided later on?

[haws bah gawd 0]

God I hated Orton during this phase. Everything he did seemed to forced, and you couldn't buy for a second that he was this devastating force that he was portrayed as. The psychopathic Orton that we have these days, sure, I'll buy it. Oiled-up, Stacy Keibler-kissing pretty boy, running roughshot over Evolution? Not so much.

 

I believe that concussion angle came from his match against Triple H at RR 2005. For a couple weeks, Orton would get his head attacked, and always pull off the win. All the while JR was flipping his lid about Orton having this never say die attitude, and will to win. Lame.

[King Cucaracha 0]

To be fair, I always thought his selljob of the 'concussion' at RR '05 was pretty convincing and always liked that match. But yeah, turning it into a angle never worked since I don't think 'sympathy' was the way to go with Orton as a face.

[DarKnight 0]

I don't want to go into my usual "I've always hated Orton and will never like him" rant, but he would have never ever worked as a face. Like someone else in this thread said, he just seems too much like a jock scumbag to ever be believable as a face. Then of course there was the bad booking. I must have been one of the only people who ever thought the angle sucked from the start with HHH turning on him. I don't think we should feel sorry for a heel who gets kicked out of his own heel faction, since Orton never turned on HHH like Batista did to get the crowd on his side.

[King Kamala 0]

This all occured during one of my hiatuses from watching wrestling but I think it's an unwritten rule that I appear in every Let's Talk About...thread so I'll chip in my two cents.

 

I hope this post doesn't get construed as Orton bashing because I'd put him on my list of current favorites. I think Randy Orton just has a look on his face that's naturally smug and that really hurts your chances to be a successful babyface. It's very easy to be a smug, condescending heel but only a few have managed to be able to pull off doing that type of character as a babyface (The Rock, Chris Jericho, Austin, maybe Kevin Nash). Orton just doesn't have the natural charisma to pull it off.

[Jebus 0]

Evolution turning on Randy is one of my favorite moments in wrestling. I was one of those on the board that night just loving it.

It was all downhill from there.

 

[dubq 0]

Remember when Orton was a face in OVW?